Should Lauren Hill get the Ashe Award for Courage over Jenner?
- Thread starter Drmac22
- Start date
I'm not sure if you realize this, but your own post acknowledges Jenner's courage.
I'd say you nailed it. I'm just going to wait about 6 months when an episode of Keeping Up With The Kardashians opens with Bruce back in the house (visiting of course) looking like his old self......walks into the room with entire clan present.....turns to the camera and they all start pointing and laughing. It'll be epic.
We see this different and I've alredy explained why. You make no new points here. HIV was stigmatized in 1992. Coming out that you were infected was risky and hence a couragious act. Transsexuality is similarly stigmatized, probably more so. Hence to face that is also risky and an act of courage.
No it doesn't......what it acknowledges is that he's had a pretty good life up until the point they turned the cameras on in that house. Dealing with that family isn't courage. I submit (and I'm not a Dr., but I've heard more than one say it) that he's not in a good place mentally......and needs help with what he's doing. I know what I typed....stop with the "I'm not sure you realize" crap.
Ashe didn't "come out"...he was going to be outed and he jumped in front of it. Had he been able to keep it a secret he would have died and THEN it would have been revealed...maybe. He displayed zero courage there. He did what he was forced to do.
That...btw...is a new point.
This one does too. A little self awareness. If you admit the guy is risking death to become his true self, that's courageous. Unless you think he has not seen a shrink who made him aware of this risk which would seem unlikely.
You did, as you see in the post you just answered, it says weiners. You must have changed it before I had a chance to hit post reply on your OP. Hence, why mine reads the original content of what you first typed. You're clever, I'll give you that.
This is by far the most wrong I have ever seen natural on any topic.
I hope he's just being a contrarian and doesn't really believe the garbage he's posting. I know ESPN is doing this for ratings but I'm boycotting the Espy's over this. And I have no problem with Jenner ' s life choices I just think it is sickening he wins this award over Hill.
I hope he's just being a contrarian and doesn't really believe the garbage he's posting. I know ESPN is doing this for ratings but I'm boycotting the Espy's over this. And I have no problem with Jenner ' s life choices I just think it is sickening he wins this award over Hill.
Intentionally increasing your risk of death is now showing courage? I must be getting old.....when I was a kid we called those people stupid. I mean, skydiving without a parachute really increases your risk.....is it showing courage....or just that you're an idiot?
By the way....your true self in this case is he's a dude.....he still has his male reproductive organ (which he was born with) and wants to bang women.
Yes, him coming out and trying to do good, knowing that he was facing death was very courageous. Game, set, match. Aegon retains his crown.
I saw this online somewhere and thought it summed things up pretty well:
Even in extreme pain with blood pouring out of his body, he still maintains a straight trigger finger. That's discipline.
Um yeah. A fire fighter at the station isn't courageous. It's only when he risks his life that he does something courageous. Without danger, risk, threat of loss or harm there can be no courage. If Galloway had lost his legs in a drunk driving accident, he wouldnt be courageous either. Just because you're a nice person who suffered a sympathetic loss and didn't curl up in bed and die doesn't make your actions courageous.
Wow. I think you're seeing this through your LGBTQ lenses. And your last sentence is, quite frankly, appalling.
Probably, that the lenses nature gave me. But there is nothing appalling about being thankful that Hill's life wasn't worse. Frankly the idea that some want to define getting out of bed as award winning courage is far more appalling. Why do you favor Hill over Galloway?
So what courage did Jenner display? What - exactly - did she risk? Her health? Nope? Her wealth? Nope? A career? Nope? Her family? Nope?
Like I said...her time to display courage on this issue has come and gone. Now she's just indulging herself because she can.
It's called the Arthur Ashe Award because, AFTER his status was revealed, Ashe became an advocate about his disease and worked tirelessly to raise awareness and money. He faced his death with courage and grace. That's exactly what Hill did.
You're just dead wrong here, natural.
Yes Jenner risked all of that. I think you're cheapening the word courage to say it means dying well. Most everyone dies well. Why? Because there aren't many other options. I hold courage in just a little higher regard than most it would seem. If you want to impress me with an act of courage, you must actually put something on the line. Galloway and Jenner both did.
In this thread, naturalmwa isn't even being negative about Hill and he is being attacked. There have been plenty of negative posts about Jenner and I don't see anybody really attacking them.
I tend to agree with natural here. I think it took more courage to do what Jenner did then what Hill did. That doesn't mean that Jenner is a better person than Hill. It doesn't mean that Hill's story isn't a sadder story. I just think it took more courage to do what Jenner did.
BS. Nothing she had was on the line. What has she lost? By the time Jenner acknowledged her status EVERYBODY already knew - the rumors had been flying for years. Where's the courage? And she can reverse the process as any time.
And courage doesn't just mean dying well. I already said Jenner could have displayed real courage by coming out right after the Olympics when her status and livelihood would have been at risk.
Why? What dangers does he face? What positives does he have backing his decision?
Jenner lives in a world where he's protected by his money and his media acolytes. It's hardly a new and cutting edge(pun intended) procedure or change in someones life. So he's famous, big f'n deal. How is what he did anymore 'courageous' than when a person without the resources or allies he has does the same thing?
He's being celebrated simply because he's famous, that's all. The famous stick together and they make sure they know how much better they are than you or I. This is exactly what this is.
More courageous, you've got to be out of your f'n mind.
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That would have been more heroic, but it's not correct to say Jenner didn't risk all that you mentioned and more by allowing herself to be publicly stigmatized for life. This isn't the sort of thing you can just undo. That you and a couple other posters think it is shows how clueless you on on the topic. When you finally wise up, you'll have Jenner to thank.
What dangers Natural?, read my previous post and this time make a point to negate what I'm saying instead of punting the ball. Tell me I'm wrong about how I described his advantages over his 'dangers'.
I'll get there, but first I need to know if you're on the path with me. I made the argument that courage requires risk, or danger or threat of loss of some sort. So far in this debate, most have either avoided that point or denied it. If you agree with me that courage requires an element of danger, I can then move to your point about pointing out that danger. If you are back peddling because you are aware of where this admission logically follows, then just admit I scored the point and move along.
Jenner didn't risk anything. If he was concerned about losing anything (money/career/reputation, etc) then he wouldn't have made such a public spectacle out of the process.
Driving in front of Bruce Jenner is exponentially more risky than anything he/she did in the past year.
Driving in front of Bruce Jenner is exponentially more risky than anything he/she did in the past year.
OK, I think you're wrong on Jenner's risk. I think you're right on your definition of courage involving risk. So how can you be for Hill? Galloway has to be your man right?
So by your definition of courage, the passengers of United Flight 93 displayed zero courage when they attempted to wrest control of the plane from the hijackers. They risked absolutely nothing by storming the cockpit and overpowering Ziad Jarrah. Their fates were already sealed once the flight crew was killed. They had zero chance of survival. Their attempt to crash the plane in a rural area rather than Washington, DC, was admirable but not at all courageous.
Threads like this remind me of why I never watch any award shows.
If Jenner was truly courageous, it wouldn't have taken him 40 years to take the plunge and he wouldn't need to go on a TV show to explain it to everyone, etc. And for anyone that thinks he is risking his financial well being...that's laughable, he has launched himself right back into the spotlight in this cat bites dog world and I am pretty sure his phone is ringing plenty often right now.
If Jenner was truly courageous, it wouldn't have taken him 40 years to take the plunge and he wouldn't need to go on a TV show to explain it to everyone, etc. And for anyone that thinks he is risking his financial well being...that's laughable, he has launched himself right back into the spotlight in this cat bites dog world and I am pretty sure his phone is ringing plenty often right now.
I don't grant that. When you rush a guy with a knife I call that courage. If they just calmly died in the crash and did nothing, I would not call that courage. But that's how many of you want to define the term. Action involving risk is courage. This should be pretty elemental. If you don't see any risk in Jenner's actions, where do you see risk in Hill's? You just said if a person's fate is sealed, its impossible for them to show courage. Hill's fate was sealed. What she did was admirable, but not courageous.
Yes, I agree with courage needs risk. But I don't think his risks were nearly as risky as you think they are. The only danger he faces, is him regretting his decision. But that's not courageous, that's just lack of thinking if he does regret it.
How was her wealth at risk? You can't just say it without explaining it. How was her life or family at any risk? Her family was already aware...likely has been for quite a while. Health? Maybe...she's taking hormones. BFD. If you want to claim THAT takes courage then you have truly lost it. Try hooking yourself up to a chemo regimen the second time around. THAT takes some f'n courage.
Just put it out there, natural...what exactly did Jenner lose in all this? Be explicit.
As for being reversible at this stage...what happens if she stops taking the hormones? What happens if she gets more plastic surgery to undo what's been done - besides ending up looking like Joan rivers? What happens if she returns to dressing like a male?
You've already accepted that Ashe didn't get the award for "coming out" about his HIV status - mainly because he didn't. That means the award acknowledges the courage and grace Ashe displayed in facing his disease. And despite your attempts to make it the LGBT Award...it's named for Ashe. Hill exemplifies in every way the traits that got the award that name. So does Galloway. Jenner doesn't. It's that simple.
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How is it courageous to rush a guy with a knife if you know you're going to die in a few minutes no matter what you do? You can either die by knife now or you can die 20 minutes from now when the plane crashes into the ground at 600mph. What risk is involved there?
You're missing my point entirely on comparing Jenner's risk with Hill's risk. You're the one who insisted that courage must involve risk. I made the point that courage does not necessarily require risk.
Lauren Hill wasn't risking anything. She knew she was going to die in a matter of months no matter what. But in my opinion it took courage to devote her remaining time to doing everything she could to prevent others from suffering the same fate in the future.
He had no idea how friends and family would react, they didn't know until he made the decision to let them know. I know a little something about the coming out process. You can't just reverse it once you tell the first person. Mainly the courage comes from standing up to the risks inherent in being stigmatized and hated for what you are. That's no small thing, even if you have a nice bank account.
You think it takes courage to be a fundraiser? So basically she might have over come a fear of public speaking to do an interview or make a speech. Think this through, that's a really low bar for a courage award. But if thats your position, you must be a Galloway guy, right? Which means you agree with me in this thread that it shouldn't go to Hill.
I know next to nothing about Galloway, so I don't know if he deserves it more than Hill does. It's entirely possible that he does. But I know enough about both Hill and Jenner that I believe Hill deserves it far more than Jenner does. That was the original point of the thread.
Being transgendered is more stigmatized than AIDS was in 92? Are people scared to be in the same room as transgendered ? Wow. Just wow
