Should Lauren Hill get the Ashe Award for Courage over Jenner?

[bdg8]

Courage:mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty

How is Jenner greater than Lauren? He definitely falls under the definition but not any greater than the other nominees

 

[IMCC965]

Probably, that the lenses nature gave me. But there is nothing appalling about being thankful that Hill's life wasn't worse. Frankly the idea that some want to define getting out of bed as award winning courage is far more appalling. Why do you favor Hill over Galloway?

It's not just Hill. There are dozens of athletes that are FAR more deserving of this "ESPY" than Ms. Jenner. She just happens to be one of the more likely ones that should receive it.

Ms. Jenner split her dick in half and shoved it into a carved out canal. Sounds more crazy than courageous to me.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

He had no idea how friends and family would react, they didn't know until he made the decision to let them know. I know a little something about the coming out process. You can't just reverse it once you tell the first person. Mainly the courage comes from standing up to the risks inherent in being stigmatized and hated for what you are. That's no small thing, even if you have a nice bank account.

It amazes me that you can find courage in Jenner facing his family but you see no courage in Hill facing her own death with grace and hope. It's beyond my ability to comprehend how you could be so blind. You said in your first definition that courage comes from overcoming fear...the fear of being stigmatized is roundly thumped by the fear of dying.

I taught a young lady many years ago who had cystic fibrosis. It was my first year teaching. Right after Christmas, they announced over the school intercom that she had passed away. I was supposed to get the word ahead of time so I could be prepared but there was a miscommunication so I got it the same time my students did. Misty was 13.

I went to her funeral. Talked to her parents. They showed me around the room. The mementos, pictures, her last report card - with straight A's were all displayed. Misty knew she was dying so she asked her folks to take her to the funeral home over the Christmas break and she laid out where she wanted everything.

Now maybe you see that as her just getting out of bed...but I see courage I don't think I could match. And if anyone ever tells me to my face that she wasn't courageous...

I'm done with this topic. Too much dumb.

 

[lou loomis]

They should give it to Lauryn Hill. Wyclef approves.

 

[Drmac22]

Natural, if you cannot see the courage that Hill showed during her short time on earth, then there is no chance anyone here is going to change you or convince you. I can only hope that some day you don't face the demons of cancer. I have, I have lost several friends and family to it and it takes every bit of courage to face it, face the chemo, the radiation therapy and still get up and try to live, that is what Lauren did, she faced early and certain death and said you can come for me but I go out on my terms trying to help others before I go. She didn't just raise money, she raised hope for all those that have cancer that feel like they can't.. She proved to them with her courage and strength that you can. To me that's courage. Facing something that your terrified of and not backing down. Jenner just stop living his lie.. he told the truth. Jenner also killed a person in a car accident.. and is trying to get out of his responsibility. Does not sound to courageous to me. Sgt Galloway is also a very good choice. I mentioned him in my original post along with Kelly.

 

[naturalmwa]

Courage:mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty

How is Jenner greater than Lauren? He definitely falls under the definition but not any greater than the other nominees

I explained many times already. Your own definition makes it clear that danger is part of the equation. Hill faced no danger by acting, Jenner faced some, Galloway more.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Jenner didn't risk anything. If he was concerned about losing anything (money/career/reputation, etc) then he wouldn't have made such a public spectacle out of the process.
.

This post is awesome, wanted to highlight it.

In the same post:
A. He risked nothing.
B. He didn't have to take the risks he did, its his fault.

Brilliant.

 

[sdhawkeye]

I explained many times already. Your own definition makes it clear that danger is part of the equation. Hill faced no danger by acting, Jenner faced some, Galloway more.

Actually, his definition states that danger can be part of the equation. It says danger, fear, or difficulty. In other words, danger or fear or difficulty. Count me on the side that sees courage in the way Hill faced the fear of death and the certain difficulties of her cancer.

 

[B1GDeal]

Jenner did nothing to be given this award. He has been living his life on tv and knowingly did what he did. This is all a production. He was a great athlete 40-yrs ago, but hasn't been involved with sports in decades. Instead the past decade he has spent his time living in front of a camera... so he knew what he did would he public consumption. He is surrounded by family/friends to be insulated from any negative influences beyomd social media or tabloids. Nothing couragous about this. He isn't the first Tran nor the last.

The others mentioned would be better suited for the award. Hill was a young athlete who knew she was going to die... and made her last months mean something beyond her time left on earth. She also stepped on the court one last time when her body was failing her... to say good bye to a game she loved and to tell cancer she might be sick but she wasnt giving in to it.

Kelly former great QB who is involved with game still suffering from cancer and battling it publically. Similar to Hill... though he is still able to live to tell about it... so far.

The soldier who lost limbs fighting for Jenner's freedom and ability to live the life he/she is choosing. Yet, he is still performing as an athlete after these losses.

I appreciate that Jenner is making his choice, but he didnt do anything special. He was living his life on tv and will continue to do so. In fact, he will make a lot of money and be in the spotlight again due to this.

 

[bdg8]

I explained many times already. Your own definition makes it clear that danger is part of the equation. Hill faced no danger by acting, Jenner faced some, Galloway more.

No it doesn't. Not even close. Danger is just one of the elements. Read the definition again. Danger or difficulty are part of the definition as well and she most certainly faced difficult times

 

[theIowaHawk]

Natural, if you cannot see the courage that Hill showed during her short time on earth, then there is no chance anyone here is going to change you or convince you. I can only hope that some day you don't face the demons of cancer. I have, I have lost several friends and family to it and it takes every bit of courage to face it, face the chemo, the radiation therapy and still get up and try to live, that is what Lauren did, she faced early and certain death and said you can come for me but I go out on my terms trying to help others before I go. She didn't just raise money, she raised hope for all those that have cancer that feel like they can't.. She proved to them with her courage and strength that you can. To me that's courage. Facing something that your terrified of and not backing down. Jenner just stop living his lie.. he told the truth. Jenner also killed a person in a car accident.. and is trying to get out of his responsibility. Does not sound to courageous to me. Sgt Galloway is also a very good choice. I mentioned him in my original post along with Kelly.

Look, I'm sure Natural gets that, but that doesn't appear to be his point.

You seem to think: Cancer is awful and affects a lot of people, and people die.

Which suggests that issues that Bruce went/going through is not "awful", or it doesn't affect people, and there isn't suicides.

Long story short, I could remove the name "Lauren' and replace it with Jenner above, and a lot of it would still be true.

That said, there are more worthy candidates for the award, but its ESPN's award to give.

 

[theIowaHawk]

[QUOTE="Barnstormers Hoops, post: 356763, member: 6700"He has been living his life on tv and knowingly did what he did. [/QUOTE]

Not sure how you think this applies, or changes the issue, like, at all.

 

[TJ8869]

This post is awesome, wanted to highlight it.

In the same post:
A. He risked nothing.
B. He didn't have to take the risks he did, its his fault.

Brilliant.

It's not my fault you misunderstood the post.

Natural keeps talking about how much Jenner risked, but never details exactly what he risked. Any risk Jenner took was entirely superficial. The single biggest danger was that people he's never met might say mean things about him on Twitter.

Oh, no! The horror of it all!

Was he in danger of having his Olympic gold medal taken away? No. Was there any concern that his $100 million bank account might evaporate? No.

He's a 65-year-old multimillionaire celebrity and that isn't going to change. If he was concerned about backlash then he could have chosen to do this outside the spotlight. Instead he chose to make it a public spectacle, complete with a nationally televised interview and a Vanity Fair photo shoot.

He chose to use this as an opportunity to cash in on his celebrity status, just as he has been doing since 1976.

There's nothing wrong with that, of course. He's free to make money any way he sees fit. But it's hardly what I consider risky or courageous.

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

So you do agree that overcoming danger is key to an act of courage?

Have your forgotten about pro tennis player Renee Richards? Where is his/her Arthur Ashe Award? Oh wait....she's not a reality TV "star".

What Jenner is doing is not new to the sports world. Did Renee get an ESPY?
Felicity Huffman got an Oscar for portraying a man living as a woman in "Trans-America".......the short memory that the American public has is nauseating.

Jenner has his life, health, and body IN TACT. He hasn't lost any limbs(well about to lose an appendage)....and he isn't dying of any disease. He is going to make millions off his new show. He has also had his magazine cover shoot, his interviews and his entire story splashed all over the news and other media outlets. I'm with him on how he should live his life as he sees fit. And do you know what? The majority of Americans either don't care, or applaud his decision. Very few people are publicly coming out against his choice.

But he does NOT deserve this award. And he/she/shim knows it. If I'm his publicist.......I'm telling him to deny the award, and allowing it to go to the others that were up for it. And if he were to "man up"......he would call ESPN and tell them that he can't and won't accept it. However, he's a Kardashian by default.........and the narcissist in him will be up there in full regalia to accept it. IF he doesn't accept it, I'll be shocked.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

OK, so his risks were minor. What were Hill's risks?

The fact that she spent so much of her last days making a difference, rather than enjoying them as much as possible in

This post is awesome, wanted to highlight it.

In the same post:
A. He risked nothing.
B. He didn't have to take the risks he did, its his fault.

Brilliant.

You're missing the point like you always do. Jenner knew he'd be fine. Jenner hasn't even committed to staying this way.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Have your forgotten about pro tennis player Renee Richards? Where is his/her Arthur Ashe Award? Oh wait....she's not a reality TV "star".

What Jenner is doing is not new to the sports world. Did Renee get an ESPY?
Felicity Huffman got an Oscar for portraying a man living as a woman in "Trans-America".......the short memory that the American public has is nauseating.

Jenner has his life, health, and body IN TACT. He hasn't lost any limbs(well about to lose an appendage)....and he isn't dying of any disease. He is going to make millions off his new show. He has also had his magazine cover shoot, his interviews and his entire story splashed all over the news and other media outlets. I'm with him on how he should live his life as he sees fit. And do you know what? The majority of Americans either don't care, or applaud his decision. Very few people are publicly coming out against his choice.

But he does NOT deserve this award. And he/she/shim knows it. If I'm his publicist.......I'm telling him to deny the award, and allowing it to go to the others that were up for it. And if he were to "man up"......he would call ESPN and tell them that he can't and won't accept it. However, he's a Kardashian by default.........and the narcissist in him will be up there in full regalia to accept it. IF he doesn't accept it, I'll be shocked.

Boom goes the SEC dynamite. I think even the slightly insane could understand these concepts. IowaHawk? Do you get it?

 

[naturalmwa]

The fact that she spent so much of her last days making a difference, rather than enjoying them as much as possible in

Ok, so now everyone who has a job is couragious. You act like being a well thought of celebrity fundraiser isn't more fullfilling that being curled up in bed. She's laudable, she just wasn't making a couragious choice. If this was the Ashe award for great people, then you would have a point.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Ok, so now everyone who has a job is couragious. You act like being a well thought of celebrity fundraiser isn't more fullfilling that being curled up in bed. She's laudable, she just wasn't making a couragious choice. If this was the Ashe award for great people, then you would have a point.

She had brain cancer, there were many moments where she was incapacitated.

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

Ok, so now everyone who has a job is couragious. You act like being a well thought of celebrity fundraiser isn't more fullfilling that being curled up in bed. She's laudable, she just wasn't making a couragious choice. If this was the Ashe award for great people, then you would have a point.

dude.....you're failing miserably in this thread.

 

[naturalmwa]

She had brain cancer, there were many moments where she was incapacitated.

What is your point? I'M not anti-Hill. I've said many times she is great. But courage doesn't mean doing great things. It doesn't mean doing great things that are a PITA. It means confronting a risk or a danger. Galloway did this, Jenner did this, Hill did not as I see it.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Ok, so now everyone who has a job is couragious. You act like being a well thought of celebrity fundraiser isn't more fullfilling that being curled up in bed. She's laudable, she just wasn't making a couragious choice. If this was the Ashe award for great people, then you would have a point.

No, you are wrong here. Jenner did something that was a personal choice, and he's been given nothing but praise in the media, and his family for it. Last year Michael Sam won the award. That one I could somewhat see. This time though, Jenner is simply making a choice. He's not going to be hurt by it, he's not going to suffer, and he's not dying at the moment.
Everyday that girl lived she was being courageous. Because she knew that she was dying soon. She knew that she COULD have simply lived it up as much as possible beforehand, and instead she chose to help others, who may someday escape her fate.
If Jenner was so courageous, he wouldn't be contemplating the fact that this 'change' might not last. You lost this debate the first post you made.

As was pointed out before as well. This award is more celebrity nonsense, than anything else it seems. It's disguised as 'courage', but it's true face is sensationalism.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

What is your point? I'M not anti-Hill. I've said many times she is great. But courage doesn't mean doing great things. It doesn't mean doing great things that are a PITA. It means confronting a risk or a danger. Galloway did this, Jenner did this, Hill did not as I see it.

Perhaps, someone could find ways to make you face death everyday? Knowing that someone is going to take you out at any time, with NO escape from it. Can you deal with this without breaking down and living your life, and during that time also trying to find a way to prevent others from dying.

That's not a threat, that's an example of what she dealt with. Tell me Natural, would you not be courageous if you found a way to stand up to that fate?

Perhaps you just are too wrapped up on the LGBT community to understand common sense? Similar to how you're too wrapped up in liberal America, to hear any other ideas, that aren't liberal?

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

What is your point? I'M not anti-Hill. I've said many times she is great. But courage doesn't mean doing great things. It doesn't mean doing great things that are a PITA. It means confronting a risk or a danger. Galloway did this, Jenner did this, Hill did not as I see it.

What pains has Jenner suffered? Who really thought this was 'risky' for him? In his society? These days? With HIS family? Come on man, at least try and do complicated math when thinking about this equation of whether he was really risking everything.
Even if he failed, he's lived a more fruitful life than any of us here every will.

 

[naturalmwa]

No, you are wrong here. Jenner did something that was a personal choice, and he's been given nothing but praise in the media, and his family for it. Last year Michael Sam won the award. That one I could somewhat see. This time though, Jenner is simply making a choice. He's not going to be hurt by it, he's not going to suffer, and he's not dying at the moment.
Everyday that girl lived she was being courageous. Because she knew that she was dying soon. She knew that she COULD have simply lived it up as much as possible beforehand, and instead she chose to help others, who may someday escape her fate.
If Jenner was so courageous, he wouldn't be contemplating the fact that this 'change' might not last. You lost this debate the first post you made.

As was pointed out before as well. This award is more celebrity nonsense, than anything else it seems. It's disguised as 'courage', but it's true face is sensationalism.

Exactly, Jenner made a couragious choice. Choice is essentional. For an act to be couragious, you must have the option to not make that choice. You must have an out. Hill had no choice, hence courage is not part of the equation for her. That's a good thing. We should be thankful the girl wasn't faced with the added stress of needing to make a couragious decision.

 

[naturalmwa]

What pains has Jenner suffered? Who really thought this was 'risky' for him? In his society? These days? With HIS family? Come on man, at least try and do complicated math when thinking about this equation of whether he was really risking everything.
Even if he failed, he's lived a more fruitful life than any of us here every will.

Jenner's basic risk was rejection. As we see here, that's not an unfounded fear. He decided to accept that risk and move forward. Taking that risk looks to be working out for him, but that doesn't eliminate that the risk was made without that presumption. I grant that's a minor risk compared to Galloway, but it's more than Hill as she had zero risk at all.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Exactly, Jenner made a couragious choice. Choice is essentional. For an act to be couragious, you must have the option to not make that choice. You must have an out. Hill had no choice, hence courage is not part of the equation for her. That's a good thing. We should be thankful the girl wasn't faced with the added stress of needing to make a couragious decision.

A man who was already somewhat ridiculed, and apparently didn't give a #$# about it, make a decision that surprises no one, and it's courageous? Come on you troll, give it up, I've blown up your little troll bridge and you have no where to go with this silly nonsense.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Jenner's basic risk was rejection. As we see here, that's not an unfounded fear. He decided to accept that risk and move forward. Taking that risk looks to be working out for him, but that doesn't eliminate that the risk was made without that presumption. I grant that's a minor risk compared to Galloway, but it's more than Hill as she had zero risk at all.

Oooohhhh,..well then I guess I should get the award next time i'm rejected by a girl then. Facing rejection, compared to facing death. At least you live to get rejected again eh?

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

Exactly, Jenner made a couragious choice. Choice is essentional. For an act to be couragious, you must have the option to not make that choice. You must have an out. Hill had no choice, hence courage is not part of the equation for her. That's a good thing. We should be thankful the girl wasn't faced with the added stress of needing to make a couragious decision.

Where was the "choice" for Arthur Ashe?

you're looking like a massive dick. Hill has NO courage in facing her daily life knowing she is about to die? Shitty troll job, brother.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

COURAGE:
the ability to do something that frightens one.
"she called on all her courage to face the ordeal"

• strength in the face of pain or grief.
  "he fought his illness with great courage"

Who fits this word more Natural? Hill or Jenner? Only one of these people did both. I'd argue, Jenner didn't do either.

Also the word Ordeal:

a painful or horrific experience, especially a protracted one.
"the ordeal of having to give evidence"

Knowing you're going to die and suffer great pain while doing so sure fits he word ordeal doesn't it?

 

[Chewback]

Lots of talk on the net about Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and how He/she should get the ESPY Ashe award for showing courage to come out and admit he felt he was a woman. Do you think Jenner should get the award over Lauren Hill a Teen who battled Cancer and raised over a million dollars for research to find a cure, and who recently passed away because of it. She to me represents what I would want my kids to be like, to face a demon like cancer and battle it even though she knew she was not going to over come it. I think there are others Like Jim Kelly or Sgt. Noah Galloway they would all be better awardees. Just my opinion and Im curious to see what the rest of you think.

 

[naturalmwa]

Where was the "choice" for Arthur Ashe?

you're looking like a massive dick. Hill has NO courage in facing her daily life knowing she is about to die? Shitty troll job, brother.

I disagree, there is nothing dick like about arguing a courage award should be about performing a couragious act. I don't think living is a couragious act. You set the bar ridiculously low.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Somebody in this thread is having a hard time acknowledging that they lost the argument. Jenner isn't courageous, if anything, he is an opportunist. Dollars to doughnuts...there is a reality show coming starring...you guessed it...Caitlyn Jenner.

Maybe they should name the yet to be announced show, wait for it..."Profiles in Courage". Because we all know that announcing yourself to the world as a transvestite is as courageous as it gets.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

I disagree, there is nothing dick like about arguing a courage award should be about performing a couragious act. I don't think living is a couragious act. You set the bar ridiculously low.

You didn't answer my question Natural, I'll ask again, as I know you saw it, but didn't know how to answer it.

Perhaps, someone could find ways to make you face death everyday? Knowing that someone is going to take you out at any time, with NO escape from it. Can you deal with this without breaking down and living your life, and during that time also trying to find a way to prevent others from dying.

That's not a threat, that's an example of what she dealt with. Tell me Natural, would you not be courageous if you found a way to stand up to that fate?

 

[naturalmwa]

A man who was already somewhat ridiculed, and apparently didn't give a #$# about it, make a decision that surprises no one, and it's courageous? Come on you troll, give it up, I've blown up your little troll bridge and you have no where to go with this silly nonsense.

You sound jealious. But if you need help scoring with chicks I'm a great wingman.

 

[Chewback]

Lots of talk on the net about Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and how He/she should get the ESPY Ashe award for showing courage to come out and admit he felt he was a woman. Do you think Jenner should get the award over Lauren Hill a Teen who battled Cancer and raised over a million dollars for research to find a cure, and who recently passed away because of it. She to me represents what I would want my kids to be like, to face a demon like cancer and battle it even though she knew she was not going to over come it. I think there are others Like Jim Kelly or Sgt. Noah Galloway they would all be better awardees. Just my opinion and Im curious to see what the rest of you think.

The nice thing about this post is I'm pretty sure there is no need to read the rest of the thread. That said, the ESPYs are a complete joke. The only time I ever watched any of it, I tuned in just in time to watch some female triathlete explosively crap herself as she approached the finish line. Everybody in the audience was ooing and ahing and say how wonderful to see someone crap themselves while running. So brave! I switched to something else, maybe an infomercial or something, and never felt a need to watch the ESPYs again.

Jenner is the big story right now and ESPN doesn't want to miss out on the hype.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

You sound jealious. But if you need help scoring with chicks I'm a great wingman.

I don't need help, but I'd take your help anyways. The more the merrier.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

The nice thing about this post is I'm pretty sure there is no need to read the rest of the thread. That said, the ESPYs are a complete joke. The only time I ever watched any of it, I tuned in just in time to watch some female triathlete explosively crap herself as she approached the finish line. Everybody in the audience was ooing and ahing and say how wonderful to see someone crap themselves while running. So brave! I switched to something else, maybe an infomercial or something, and never felt a need to watch the ESPYs again.

Jenner is the big story right now and ESPN doesn't want to miss out on the hype.

You're shittin' me?

 

[naturalmwa]

You didn't answer my question Natural, I'll ask again, as I know you saw it, but didn't know how to answer it.

Perhaps, someone could find ways to make you face death everyday? Knowing that someone is going to take you out at any time, with NO escape from it. Can you deal with this without breaking down and living your life, and during that time also trying to find a way to prevent others from dying.

That's not a threat, that's an example of what she dealt with. Tell me Natural, would you not be courageous if you found a way to stand up to that fate?

Of course we could, most do it every day. It's called life. Dozens of people right here have conditions that will kill them sooner than they like. Moving on isn't really about courage, it's about survival. If you focuse on your mortality, it eats you up. Focusing on others allows you to cope. It's theraputic, not courageous

 

[theIowaHawk]

A man who was already somewhat ridiculed, and apparently didn't give a #$# about it, make a decision that surprises no one, and it's courageous? Come on you troll, give it up, I've blown up your little troll bridge and you have no where to go with this silly nonsense.

Are you really claiming this surprised no one?

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Of course we could, most do it every day. It's called life. Dozens of people right here have conditions that will kill them sooner than they like. Moving on isn't really about courage, it's about survival. If you focuse on your mortality, it eats you up. Focusing on others allows you to cope. It's theraputic, not courageous

No, we do know it could happen at anytime. What most of us don't have is a certainty that it's DEFINITELY GOING TO HAPPEN SOON, and BEFORE we ever get to experience life as an adult. Bad response, try again.