Socialism vs Capitalism
- Thread starter What Would Jesus Do?
- Start date
You are confusing capitalism with crony capitalism, which is just another term for socialism.
I didn't call Hitler a socialist: he claimed that for himself. But I guess what you're saying is that Mussolini was worse than Hitler??????
The denial runs deep.
He sounds like a crony capitalist to me. Its not my fault you believe hitler and can't identify a fascist.I didn't call Hitler a socialist: he claimed that for himself. But I guess what you're saying is that Mussolini was worse than Hitler??????
The denial runs deep.
Ok. So a self-proclaimed socialist and the ruler of the National Socialist party wasn't a socialist, he was a fascist? Now it's all starting to make sense.He sounds like a crony capitalist to me. Its not my fault you believe hitler and can't identify a fascist.
I guess next you'll try and tell me Mussolini wasn't a fascist - but a pacifist??????????
Obama = Bush 41 & 43 = Clintons = Sanders. That's whats really bugging you isn't it?
That people believe this has always bugged me. I don't think I've hidden my disdain for your views too well.Ok. So a self-proclaimed socialist and the ruler of the National Socialist party wasn't a socialist, he was a fascist? Now it's all starting to make sense.
I guess next you'll try and tell me Mussolini wasn't a fascist - but a pacifist??????????
Obama = Bush 41 & 43 = Clintons = Sanders. That's whats really bugging you isn't it?
Ha Ha!
Republicans, Democrats, Socialists, Communists, Fascists, Independents, Conservatives, Liberals, Dictators, Oligarchists, Theocrats, ad nauseam. Just different colored flies feasting on the same stinkin' pile of crap.
Yes all people are the same, all ideas are equal.Ha Ha!
Republicans, Democrats, Socialists, Communists, Fascists, Independents, Conservatives, Liberals, Dictators, Oligarchists, Theocrats, ad nauseam. Just different colored flies feasting on the same stinkin' pile of crap.
What a ridiculous abdication of your powers of discernment.
I have no clue about my powers of discernment.Yes all people are the same, all ideas are equal.
But I like to think I have a pretty good bullshit detector and I smell lots of it coming from both sides of the aisle (and right down the middle, too) in DC.
Have a good day, Natural, I gotta go.
You are confusing capitalism with crony capitalism, which is just another term for socialism.
The thing is that what Hitler said about capitalism in 1927 had merit. Whether he believed it at the time and changed, or was just pandering even that early in his rise to power . . . who knows?
Obviously, unless you are one of those duped by Johah Goldberg and his ilk (we have a few here on HROT), Nazism was fascism, not socialism.
Crony capitalism is not another term for socialism. I can see why capitalists would want do disown it. But that doesn't make it socialism. Where are ANY of the hallmarks of socialism?
Whether you like it or not, crony capitalism is still all about the supremacy of capital in the social equation. So it may be a corrupt form of capitalism - I'll grant you that - but it isn't socialism.
Like I've said before, the Nazis were a left-leaning party. His rhetoric proves it as well as his actions.
We all know you've made this error before.
this, pretty muchHa Ha!
Republicans, Democrats, Socialists, Communists, Fascists, Independents, Conservatives, Liberals, Dictators, Oligarchists, Theocrats, ad nauseam. Just different colored flies feasting on the same stinkin' pile of crap.
Guck-a-Fator
Team MVP
The first is an example of a country relentlessly punished by a capitalist nation (us).
The second is an example of the consolidation of wealth as capitalists exploit others and convert to a finance-dominated culture.
The main difference is that you are showing the victims in the first set - because that suits your meme - and showing the winners in the second set - because, again, that suits your meme.
I like this graphic it for it's effectiveness at reflecting capitalistic propaganda. But obviously it is a childishly simplistic representation.
it is an oxymoron to say you are punishing someone with capitalism- that's like saying you are punishing a child with too much love
Tell that to the child laborers, the mine workers without health care or pensions, the family farmers kicked off their land by agribusiness, the people suffering from toxic wastes dumped into air and water . . . and on and on. Those ills are brought to us by capitalism, and cured by socialism.
It's hard to have a conversation about capitalism at all, because 99.9% of this world doesn't even understand what capitalism really is.
Communists could say the same thing. I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss (and indict) what passes for capitalism (or communism) in the real world.
Besides, even Adam Smith warned of the excesses and distortions possible under capitalism.
Always a good sign that you should reconsider, Soup, when OiT agrees with you.
So, looking at this graph, are we saying that the 1%ers in this country are the only ones that are socialists in this country because they are getting what they haven't earned here? Just because they can by claiming all of the profits from industry for themselves instead of providing any kind of growth of wages, wealth, etc. to the rest of us to reflect the work that many of the rest of us did for them to help get that economic growth? Before 1980, which is before our country went in to the decline that we have had recently, the top and bottom 1 percent and median growth lines were a lot more in synch with each other and in synch with the GDP growth line too, as shown here.
I didn't call Hitler a socialist: he claimed that for himself. But I guess what you're saying is that Mussolini was worse than Hitler??????
The denial runs deep.
Yes. Some people can't read.
He sounds like a crony capitalist to me. Its not my fault you believe hitler and can't identify a fascist.
Hitler was socialist, that doesn't make socialism bad but that's what he was. I don't know why this is even an argument. His socialism had nothing to do with his hard on for genocide and starting wars. So to be fair he really shouldn't even be brought up.
His aggression towards unions likely had a lot to do with 2 things. 1 it was a way of political organizing outside of political parties. . . a big no no for Hitler. All political organizing in his view needed to happen under the Swastika.
Secondly the unions represented a threat to his future war plans. What if in the middle of invading another country a factory workers union called a strike? That wouldn't work out very well for him. Someone who wants to invade his neighbors can't really have unions going on strike.
Besides since he was running everything and in his opinion he was so incredibly awesome, in his view there would be no need for unions.
As far as the Christian thing if you look at the entirety of what he did the Christian thing was for political purposes. In private he detested religion. And when he later took power he made a point to interfere with the church so that they preached that Hitler was as great as Jesus or maybe even greater.
Interesting double standard. If he says he's Christian, but doesn't act that way, he's not Christian. But if he says he's socialist, but acts like a fascist, he's still socialist.
So . . . he was a socialist because he claimed to be one before he rose to power and despite the fact that he implemented fascist policies when in power.
Is that about right?
Is is surprising to you and Shank and 86 that sometimes politicians claim to be something they aren't when that something is popular with the public?
Now if you look at Hitler's policies I'm sure you can point out some actions - like public education - that you can call socialist. But Ike was in favor of Social Security. Does the occasional agreement with a sensible socialist policy here and there make you a socialist?
More to the point - and I think your comments were partly touching this, Hoosier - if a bad guy does something good (or in this case, claims to be for something good) does that turn the good thing into a bad thing? Because that seems to be the logic that Shank and 86 are using.
Fascism and Socialism are not diametric opposites. One can be facist and socialist.
There are a few lists around that attempt to capture the main features of fascism. Here's one:
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
I don't entirely disagree, but its important to identify what we are actually talking about. And in the case of the Hitler meme, its the fascist policies that everyone hates, and where the focus needs to be. Fascism is a xenophobic, authoritarian system of the right that nationalizes production and resources for the maintenance of the military, industry and the elite while socialism is a policy of the left that socializes production risk and reward for the benefit of the general population.
This. People are way off base who think Fascism is a right wing thing.
Also
Hitler was undeniably a Christian. He was both Christian and a Socialist.
Which is why I am saying that Hitler being socialist doesn't make socialist evil. . . Because it had nothing to do with the war or the genocide. It's no more a part of the genocide then Hitler having brown eyes and dark hair. (I think I had heard he had brown eyes anyways)
I would correct you in that I think facism is an authoritarian and usually xenophobic system which seeks to use everything and everyone without regard for those people or things, towards the greater glory of the nation as a whole. It often takes the form of military glory but it can be outside of that. A lot of fascists love international competitions and place great importance in them.
Anything where my nation can beat your nation or be better then your nation is a fascist dream.
OK, time for a show and tell from people who keep regurgitating this nonsense. Convince us you are right.
List some of Hitler's socialist policies and tell us, first, whether they are significant enough to characterize him as a socialist and, second, why they are evil.
Unfortunately, Hoo, nearly everyone else calling Hitler a socialist (which is still incorrect) is doing what you aren't doing - using guilt by association to reinforce their long-standing meme that socialism is evil.
Conservative logic on this subject, in syllogisms....
1. Socialism is bad
2. Hitler was bad
Therefore, Hitler was a socialist.
1. Hitler was a Nazi.
2. Hitler was bad.
3. Socialism is bad.
Therefore socialism and Nazism are the same bad thing.
I love conservative logic.
1. Socialism is bad
2. Hitler was bad
Therefore, Hitler was a socialist.
1. Hitler was a Nazi.
2. Hitler was bad.
3. Socialism is bad.
Therefore socialism and Nazism are the same bad thing.
I love conservative logic.
there are tons of liberal Christians, and religious liberals...the vast majority of Hispanic catholics, the liberal jews who elect Hillary, it goes on and on. the pope is so far left he leans left when he walks.
hitler's party was the national socialist worker's party, N.A.Z.I. for short
Show us that he isn't. And don't try false claims like he was racist and therefore a right winger.
He claimed to be a socialist and was one, just like he claimed to be a Christian and was one. That doesn't mean all socialists and Christians are evil like him, but he was those things.
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