Somebody explain first round byes to me

[artradley]

In my simple mind, it seems to me that if you have a 15 man bracket, then the 1-seed gets a bye. If you have a 14 man bracket, then the 1 and 2-seeds get a bye, etc. In fact, that's how it is almost always arranged. For some some reason,though, in NCAA wrestling it doesn't work that way. Can somebody tell me a)how is it decided who gets a first round bye, and 2)why in the world is it not arranged the way every other tournament in the world is arranged?

The second part of this is, given the fact that not getting a first round bye takes away what would otherwise be almost certain bonus points, providing a huge disadvantage to those wrestlers, why wouldn't the scoring be that no bonus points are rewarded in the first round? I can't imagine a panel of wrestling people, starting from scratch, that would not design the scoring so that bonus points are not earned in the first round.

I'm often baffled by what seems to be pretty fundamentally stupid rules, that seem to be universally understood as stupid, and how those rules manage to never be changed by the powers that be. Is there some reasoning out that about which I am unaware?

 

[LutherAce]

For B1Gs, it all depends on the allocations for each weight.

If the allocations are 8 or less, then only the top 8 are are seeded. This is because, in theory, the top 8 wrestlers are the ones that earned the allocation. The rest of the wrestlers are randomly assigned the remaining spots. Each seeded wrestler has the same opportunity to receive a bye vs a wrestler.

If the allocations are 8 or more, they must seed out the full 16, which means the top 2 get the byes and the traditional seeded wresters meet, as what we are used to.

 

[93hawkeye]

It seems like at NCAAs the byes are randomly distributed amongst any seeded wrestler? Given the need to balance (as you referenced) reward to highest seeds vs potential loss of bonus points, I can't think of a better way.
I think the bonus point rule is: any round in which at least 1/2 of wrestlers who are still alive in that bracket have bouts, bonus points can be awarded...if I remember that correctly, that's also probably as fair as it gets.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Art - I have similar questions, below is something that I wrote in a different thread...

"Has anyone broke down the "extra" points that several wrestlers got from getting cupcake 1st round match ups v. others receiving a 1st round bye. Fwiw, I am pretty sure that Iowa had 0 team points until Cooper won his 1st match...at 157! By that time, Iowa was in 14th place with 0 points, while PSU had 10 team points on the board and virtually every other team had some points.

It was my feeling that Iowa did a nice job of picking up bonus points in this tourney, unlike some in the previous years, BUT...it didn't seem to me that Iowa had as many "mismatches" in the 1st round, where the potential for bonus points is higher, generally speaking."

Whether or not a wrestler gets a first round match or a bye I believe the the advancement points are a wash. But the opportunity for bonus points is a delta that I think needs to be addressed.

 

[LutherAce]

Whether or not a wrestler gets a first round match or a bye I believe the the advancement points are a wash.

If you have a bye the first round, you must win your next match to earn the advancement point for the Bye.

So in essence, the match after your bye gets you 2 adv points, + bonus + placement

 

[LutherAce]

Here are your first round results. I've bolded the result of a match where either a PSU or IA guy had a bye and the other wrestled. It really was only 4 points for PSU, but we countered with 2 from Brooks, so they only really earned an additional 2 points out of having a match.

125
Champ. Round 1 - Nathan Tomasello (Ohio State) 22-0 won by tech fall over Ben Thornton (Purdue) 15-12 (TF-1.5 4:41 (20-2))
Champ. Round 1 - Sean McCabe (Rutgers) 14-14 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Elijah Oliver (Indiana) 31-8 won by decision over Steven Polakowski (Minnesota) 13-8 (Dec 4-3)
Champ. Round 1 - Tim Lambert (Nebraska) 23-9 won by tech fall over Michael Beck (Maryland) 5-12 (TF-1.5 3:33 (16-0))
Champ. Round 1 - Nico Megaludis (Penn State) 27-3 won by major decision over Mitch Rogaliner (Michigan State) 12-16 (MD 15-5)
Champ. Round 1 - Johnny Jimenez (Wisconsin) 18-13 won by major decision over Francis Edelen (Illinois) 2-18 (MD 10-2)
Champ. Round 1 - Conor Youtsey (Michigan) 12-13 won by major decision over Garrison White (Northwestern) 12-13 (MD 9-1)
Champ. Round 1 - Thomas Gilman (Iowa) 24-1 received a bye () (Bye)
133
Champ. Round 1 - Zane Richards (Illinois) 23-1 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Rossi Bruno (Michigan) 13-10 won by fall over Dom Malone (Northwestern) 20-10 (Fall 6:37)
Champ. Round 1 - Eric Montoya (Nebraska) 24-8 won by tech fall over Garth Yenter (Michigan State) 9-19 (TF-1.5 4:44 (16-0))
Champ. Round 1 - Geoff Alexander (Maryland) 13-5 won by major decision over Alonzo Shepherd (Indiana) 12-19 (MD 9-0)
Champ. Round 1 - Jordan Conaway (Penn State) 26-5 won by major decision over Sam Brancale (Minnesota) 15-18 (MD 12-3)
Champ. Round 1 - Ryan Taylor (Wisconsin) 9-5 won by tech fall over Luke Welch (Purdue) 17-13 (TF-1.5 5:53 (21-6))
Champ. Round 1 - Johnni DiJulius (Ohio State) 17-7 won by decision over Anthony Giraldo (Rutgers) 17-14 (Dec 5-1)
Champ. Round 1 - Cory Clark (Iowa) 22-1 received a bye () (Bye)
141
Champ. Round 1 - Micah Jordan (Ohio State) 25-2 won by decision over Brody Grothus (Iowa) 4-7 (Dec 5-3)
Champ. Round 1 - Jimmy Gulibon (Penn State) 12-9 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Javier Gasca III (Michigan State) 20-8 won by major decision over Tommy Cash (Indiana) 1-10 (MD 15-4)
Champ. Round 1 - Jameson Oster (Northwestern) 12-6 won by decision over Alfred Bannister (Maryland) 10-10 (Dec 9-5)
Champ. Round 1 - Anthony Ashnault (Rutgers) 29-3 won by fall over George Fisher (Michigan) 8-13 (Fall 3:40)
Champ. Round 1 - Anthony Abidin (Nebraska) 18-13 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Danny Sabatello (Purdue) 19-15 won by decision over Gabe Grahek (Wisconsin) 4-10 (Dec 4-0)
Champ. Round 1 - Tommy Thorn (Minnesota) 34-9 won by major decision over Mousa Jodeh (Illinois) 6-13 (MD 10-2)
149
Champ. Round 1 - Zain Retherford (Penn State) 29-0 won by fall over Kyle Langenderfer (Illinois) 7-14 (Fall 2:07)
Champ. Round 1 - Jake Short (Minnesota) 16-9 won by decision over Wade Hodges (Maryland) 4-13 (Dec 11-5)
Champ. Round 1 - Alec Pantaleo (Michigan) 24-5 won by decision over Tyson Dippery (Rutgers) 18-13 (Dec 6-2)
Champ. Round 1 - Jason Tsirtsis (Northwestern) 13-7 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Jake Sueflohn (Nebraska) 27-6 won by tech fall over Kaelan Richards (Michigan State) 1-15 (TF-1.5 6:28 (22-6))
Champ. Round 1 - Luke Blanton (Indiana) 18-13 won by decision over Alex Griffin (Purdue) 14-7 (Dec 4-3)
Champ. Round 1 - Cody Burcher (Ohio State) 12-10 won by decision over Andrew Crone (Wisconsin) 13-11 (Dec 3-1)
Champ. Round 1 - Brandon Sorensen (Iowa) 25-1 received a bye () (Bye)
157
Champ. Round 1 - Jason Nolf (Penn State) 29-1 won by fall over Doug Welch (Purdue) 15-11 (Fall 2:53)
Champ. Round 1 - Brandon Kingsley (Minnesota) 20-13 won by decision over Louis Mascola (Maryland) 15-10 (Dec 8-3)
Champ. Round 1 - Edwin Cooper, Jr. (Iowa) 17-9 won by fall over Anthony Petrone (Northwestern) 0-10 (Fall 1:27)
Champ. Round 1 - Jake Ryan (Ohio State) 17-5 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Richie Lewis (Rutgers) 26-5 won by tech fall over Mark Bozzo (Michigan State) 13-15 (TF-1.5 5:14 (18-3))
Champ. Round 1 - Brian Murphy (Michigan) 9-7 won by decision over Jake Danishek (Indiana) 15-11 (Dec 6-1)
Champ. Round 1 - Tyler Berger (Nebraska) 21-11 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Isaiah Martinez (Illinois) 27-1 won by tech fall over TJ Ruschell (Wisconsin) 9-19 (TF-1.5 3:55 (24-8))
165
Champ. Round 1 - Isaac Jordan (Wisconsin) 25-0 won by tech fall over Luke Norland (Northwestern) 4-18 (TF-1.5 5:24 (15-0))
Champ. Round 1 - Patrick Rhoads (Iowa) 13-11 won in sudden victory - 1 over Bryce Martin (Indiana) 18-17 (SV-1 3-1)
Champ. Round 1 - Chad Welch (Purdue) 30-7 won by tech fall over Jordan Amine (Michigan) 7-13 (TF-1.5 2:27 (16-0))
Champ. Round 1 - Anthony Perrotti (Rutgers) 21-6 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Steven Rodrigues (Illinois) 25-3 won by major decision over Brendan Burnham (Maryland) 10-11 (MD 15-5)
Champ. Round 1 - Austin Wilson (Nebraska) 23-9 won by decision over Dean Vettese (Michigan State) 7-12 (Dec 4-1)
Champ. Round 1 - Geno Morelli (Penn State) 19-10 won by decision over Brandon Krone (Minnesota) 11-13 (Dec 6-2)
Champ. Round 1 - Bo Jordan (Ohio State) 16-2 received a bye () (Bye)
174
Champ. Round 1 - Bo Nickal (Penn State) 29-1 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Phil Bakuckas (Rutgers) 18-13 won by decision over Ricky Robertson (Wisconsin) 14-13 (Dec 2-0)
Champ. Round 1 - Nate Jackson (Indiana) 31-7 won by major decision over Josh Snook (Maryland) 7-13 (MD 13-5)
Champ. Round 1 - Myles Martin (Ohio State) 28-6 won by fall over Shane Shadaia (Michigan State) 5-15 (Fall 1:55)
Champ. Round 1 - Zach Brunson (Illinois) 20-3 won by tech fall over Andrew Hoselton (Purdue) 4-11 (TF-1.5 2:43 (16-0))
Champ. Round 1 - Micah Barnes (Nebraska) 20-10 won by decision over Aaron Calderon (Michigan) 7-7 (Dec 10-3)
Champ. Round 1 - Nick Wanzek (Minnesota) 18-11 won by major decision over Mitch Sliga (Northwestern) 13-13 (MD 8-0)
Champ. Round 1 - Alex Meyer (Iowa) 23-4 received a bye () (Bye)
184
Champ. Round 1 - Dom Abounader (Michigan) 23-2 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Ryan Christensen (Wisconsin) 18-18 won by decision over Chris Pfarr (Minnesota) 9-21 (Dec 4-1)
Champ. Round 1 - Nick Gravina (Rutgers) 21-9 won by decision over Tanner Lynde (Purdue) 13-13 (Dec 6-0)
Champ. Round 1 - TJ Dudley (Nebraska) 20-6 won by fall over Shwan Shadaia (Michigan State) 11-12 (Fall 2:07)
Champ. Round 1 - Sammy Brooks (Iowa) 24-4 won by fall over Matt Irick (Indiana) 14-15 (Fall 1:43)
Champ. Round 1 - Kenny Courts (Ohio State) 17-10 won by major decision over Regis Durbin (Northwestern) 5-18 (MD 12-4)
Champ. Round 1 - Jeff Koepke (Illinois) 20-8 won by major decision over Mark Colabucci (Maryland) 7-5 (MD 17-7)
Champ. Round 1 - Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) 16-6 received a bye () (Bye)
197
Champ. Round 1 - Morgan McIntosh (Penn State) 28-0 won by fall over Jake Masengale (Indiana) 10-19 (Fall 1:28)
Champ. Round 1 - Jacob Cooper (Michigan State) 10-15 won in sudden victory - 1 over Andre Lee (Illinois) 11-14 (SV-1 3-1)
Champ. Round 1 - Aaron Studebaker (Nebraska) 21-9 won by decision over Garrett Wesneski (Maryland) 7-15 (Dec 6-2)
Champ. Round 1 - Max Huntley (Michigan) 21-5 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Nathan Burak (Iowa) 23-2 won by tech fall over Eric Peissig (Wisconsin) 5-15 (TF-1.5 6:53 (22-5))
Champ. Round 1 - Mark Martin (Ohio State) 18-7 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Hayden Hrymack (Rutgers) 17-14 won by decision over Drake Stein (Purdue) 15-21 (Dec 5-3)
Champ. Round 1 - Brett Pfarr (Minnesota) 35-3 won by major decision over Jacob Berkowitz (Northwestern) 4-14 (MD 9-0)
285
Champ. Round 1 - Adam Coon (Michigan) 18-2 won by major decision over Garret Goldman (Indiana) 14-15 (MD 14-4)
Champ. Round 1 - Brock Horwath (Wisconsin) 17-16 won by decision over Nick Nevills (Penn State) 6-3 (Dec 4-2)
Champ. Round 1 - Michael Kroells (Minnesota) 30-7 received a bye () (Bye)
Champ. Round 1 - Billy Smith (Rutgers) 27-8 won by major decision over Dimitrus Renfroe (Michigan State) 3-21 (MD 14-3)
Champ. Round 1 - Sam Stoll (Iowa) 22-6 won by major decision over Youssif Hemida (Maryland) 12-14 (MD 15-4)
Champ. Round 1 - Collin Jensen (Nebraska) 21-14 won by fall over Tyler Kral (Purdue) 9-16 (Fall 3:12)
Champ. Round 1 - Brooks Black (Illinois) 20-9 won by decision over Conan Jennings (Northwestern) 6-19 (Dec 5-0)
Champ. Round 1 - Kyle Snyder (Ohio State) 6-0 received a bye () (Bye)

 

[artradley]

For B1Gs, it all depends on the allocations for each weight.

If the allocations are 8 or less, then only the top 8 are are seeded. This is because, in theory, the top 8 wrestlers are the ones that earned the allocation. The rest of the wrestlers are randomly assigned the remaining spots. Each seeded wrestler has the same opportunity to receive a bye vs a wrestler.

If the allocations are 8 or more, they must seed out the full 16, which means the top 2 get the byes and the traditional seeded wresters meet, as what we are used to.

I have to tell you, I don't understand any of that. It's probably me, but I just don't grasp the methodology. Could you perhaps walk me thru the 125 weight class, where the one seed and eight seed had first round matches while the two seed got a bye.

 

[LutherAce]

I have to tell you, I don't understand any of that. It's probably me, but I just don't grasp the methodology. Could you perhaps walk me thru the 125 weight class, where the one seed and eight seed had first round matches while the two seed got a bye.

So the 125lb class only allocated 7, which means that the BIG will seed the top 8 wrestlers, since they really want the top 7 (or 7 best).

So the seeds were:
1 - Nato
2 - Gilman
3 - Mega
4 - Lambert
5 - Oliver
6 - Jimenez
7 - Youtsey
8 - McCabe

but now there are 6 "leftover" people, and 2 byes and they are all treated the same, regardless of record.
The leftover participants (including byes) are then randomly assigned/drawn into their spots.

The allocations are indicative of the competition/results at that weight. This year, there were only 7 of the 14 wrestlers that earned an AQ spot by meeting the Gold or Silver Criteria. Some years, that could be 10, or even 11.

IMHO, because the allocation is 7, the BIG says that the top 8 gets the "advantage" of being seeded and should beat any of the remaining wrestlers since they weren't good enough to earn an AQ.

 

[nitlion6]

I have to tell you, I don't understand any of that. It's probably me, but I just don't grasp the methodology. Could you perhaps walk me thru the 125 weight class, where the one seed and eight seed had first round matches while the two seed got a bye.

At 125 the Big10 conference had 7 automatic qualifers, so the bracket was seeded through 1 thru 8 and the two byes were selected by random draw.

The way I would like to see it done is seed the bracket 1 thru 8 or "# of allocations" (whichever is greater) and draw the byes randomly from there.

 

[LutherAce]

The way I would like to see it done is seed the bracket 1 thru 8 or "# of allocations" (whichever is greater) and draw the byes randomly from there.

That is how they do it now, kind of. If the allocation is more than 8, they seed to 16.

 

[OILCHECKER]

In my simple mind, it seems to me that if you have a 15 man bracket, then the 1-seed gets a bye. If you have a 14 man bracket, then the 1 and 2-seeds get a bye, etc. In fact, that's how it is almost always arranged. For some some reason,though, in NCAA wrestling it doesn't work that way. Can somebody tell me a)how is it decided who gets a first round bye, and 2)why in the world is it not arranged the way every other tournament in the world is arranged?

The second part of this is, given the fact that not getting a first round bye takes away what would otherwise be almost certain bonus points, providing a huge disadvantage to those wrestlers, why wouldn't the scoring be that no bonus points are rewarded in the first round? I can't imagine a panel of wrestling people, starting from scratch, that would not design the scoring so that bonus points are not earned in the first round.

I'm often baffled by what seems to be pretty fundamentally stupid rules, that seem to be universally understood as stupid, and how those rules manage to never be changed by the powers that be. Is there some reasoning out that about which I am unaware?

Lots of tournaments don't give automatically byes to the top seeds, from my experience. As others have mentioned, byes are randomly drawn in among the seeded wrestlers. Some feel there is an advantage to having a first round bye, while others feel it is better to get a first round match in against an inferior opponent.

 

[OkieSpladle]

At NCAAs, now that they seed 16, the pigtails only include unseeded wrestlers.

 

[nitlion6]

That is how they do it now, kind of. If the allocation is more than 8, they seed to 16.

My suggestion is different than the way they currently do it.
Allocation of 9 current method is to seed through 14 and #s1 and 2 automatically get byes.
My suggestion is seed 1 thru 9. 8 and 9 wrestle first round and the other 7 spots are random. Including the distribution of byes.
The point differential between 1st and 2nd this year made the distribution of the byes a non issue. Last year with a tie or 2011 with a 1 point differential the way the byes fall could be important.
First I think there should be uniformity and a team with a high number of higher seeded kids should not be intentionally placed at a disadvantage.

 

[artradley]

Lots of tournaments don't give automatically byes to the top seeds, from my experience. As others have mentioned, byes are randomly drawn in among the seeded wrestlers. Some feel there is an advantage to having a first round bye, while others feel it is better to get a first round match in against an inferior opponent.

The ones I've been involved with, they use a much more logical method of randomly seeding the unseeded guys in the remaining places. So if you have 12 wrestlers, with 8 seeded, the 4 unseeded are randomly placed in the 9 thru 12 spots.

What is the reasoning of not using the most intuitive method? Why would you not guarantee the one seed a bye?

 

[nitlion6]

The ones I've been involved with, they use a much more logical method of randomly seeding the unseeded guys in the remaining places. So if you have 12 wrestlers, with 8 seeded, the 4 unseeded are randomly placed in the 9 thru 12 spots.

What is the reasoning of not using the most intuitive method? Why would you not guarantee the one seed a bye?

Number one seed would be someone that generally speaking would be more likely to earn bonus points.

Unlike other seeded tournaments where dominance of victory means squat, in wrestling from a team's perspective the level of dominance by the individual participants is measured and rewarded in the number of team points earned.

 

[LutherAce]

The ones I've been involved with, they use a much more logical method of randomly seeding the unseeded guys in the remaining places. So if you have 12 wrestlers, with 8 seeded, the 4 unseeded are randomly placed in the 9 thru 12 spots.

What is the reasoning of not using the most intuitive method? Why would you not guarantee the one seed a bye?

as stated above:

a team with a high number of higher seeded kids should not be intentionally placed at a disadvantage.

If a team had all the #1 seeds, they would miss out on many available points. This method gives all seeded wrestlers an equal chance to earn bonus points, regardless of seed.

 

[SPOONER]

The ones I've been involved with, they use a much more logical method of randomly seeding the unseeded guys in the remaining places. So if you have 12 wrestlers, with 8 seeded, the 4 unseeded are randomly placed in the 9 thru 12 spots.

What is the reasoning of not using the most intuitive method? Why would you not guarantee the one seed a bye?

I agree with Oilchecker.

Having a bye is often a disadvantage. They do it randomly so the seeded wrestlers have an equal shot of getting a chance for a match and bonus points.

 

[artradley]

as stated above:


If a team had all the #1 seeds, they would miss out on many available points. This method gives all seeded wrestlers an equal chance to earn bonus points, regardless of seed.

But the easiest solution is to not award bonus points in the first round.

The second easiest is to randomly seed the unseeded guys starting at 16. So the better your seed the better your chance of getting a match.

It took some creative thinking to come up with a method that is so unfair. I don't see any advantage to this versus the more obvious methods.

 

[Stanley75]

It could be even more simple and fair; byes get points. Now PSU doesn't get an advantage with their studs racking up bonus points and others get byes with no points.

 

[trumpy]

When I saw the pairings for the Big Ten's I was unhappy with the number of byes Iowa received. It really hurts when your best wrestlers don't score bonus points in the first round.

 

[Vallholl]

Explanation:
Iowa's good wrestlers don't get any.