Somehow I Don't Believe Richie Cunningham Brought a Rifle to School...

[seminole97]

This was also a time when militia were still of use as well. The idea that the right to bear arms was clear and separate from the militia part of the 2nd amendment is relatively new.

No, it isn’t.
It’s clear you don’t know the history.
Not only is this Supreme Court decision proof of that, but examining the state amendment submissions for the Bill of Rights makes it even clearer. The second amendment as originally drafted combined three themes that had been submitted by the states, affirmation of the militia principal over a standing army, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and an exception to militia service for conscientious objectors. The conscientious objector clause was removed not because it was disagreed with in principle, but because Elbridge Gerry expressed the concern that a future Congress could deliberately misinterpret the clause as an excuse to deny those people the right to keep and bear arms. Now you’re trying to twist the remaining clause to that same purpose.

Also, can’t believe you’re using one of the most egregiously wrong SC decisions to support your argument.

I’m not making the argument that a human being is property under the law. I find that abhorrent.
I’m pointing out the individual right to keep and bear arms was understood to be a right of citizens, along with others in the bill of rights, like freedom of speech and assembly.

 

[Finance85]

No, there is no serious legislative or political path that exists that would approve mass confiscation of guns, no matter what individual politicians might say. In the House you don’t even have a majority of democrats that would sign on for it, to say nothing of breaking a filibuster in the senate. And there’s no way you’re getting 3/4 of states to agree to repeal an amendment.

You are moving the goalpost. This was your post.

No one has seriously discussed removing all guns from society though.

Have you been taking lessons from Joe's Place on how to move the goalpost?

There are major federal cases going on right now in California and Illinois over new laws that restrict gun ownership and where guns may be carried. The new laws clearly defy the 2A, and Bruen, Heller, and McDonald decisions.

There's a state case going on right now in New Mexico addressing the Governor's 'emergency' order banning guns in 2 counties.

The ATF is actively going from door to door demanding people produce guns they've bought, accessories they've bought, or sign affidavits regarding what guns or accessories they own, or surrender guns or accessories the ATF deems illegal that were purchased legally.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Originally the Fonz was a bully but Richie never thought his only option was to shoot him. Never happened till social media showed up. That's the main takeaway...

Columbine was before social media.

 

[Finance85]

You see how they linked those together tho right? Now you might as well have the Berlin Wall in the middle. Which is NOT what was intended.

You have a misunderstanding about the term militia as was used at the time. I've posted several times about that, and provided quotes from the founders defining that term as "all able bodied men". The term "well regulated" meant well trained.

If you truly are what your moniker suggests, google should be your friend.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

You grossly underestimate the logistics involved in hardening schools. From the sheer variety of building designs, to the size of them, some having multiple separate buildings - see parkland; while not impossible per se, I think this is a much harder task to accomplish than you think.

Take Uvalde for example - they’d done a number of the things you suggested. School was secured during the day, guard on-site, etc. shooter got in because one door got left unlocked (someone remind me, did they determine if that was an accident, lock was broke, etc?), but the shooter knew about it.

Schools built in last 20 years have too many points of entry, and ground-level classrooms have large windows that are often big enough to enter thru.

Most of the security measures you mentioned I don’t disagree with, but I’m not sure they’re always going to be plausible for a variety of reasons, some very real and some that are unfortunately political.

You have to have multiple doors so that everyone can get out in time in case of a fire.

 

[sober_teacher]

You have to have multiple doors so that everyone can get out in time in case of a fire.

Yup. Imo, most who argue for hardening schools don’t realize what all that would entail.

 

[Finance85]

You have to have multiple doors so that everyone can get out in time in case of a fire.

Schools where I live have 8 feet chain link fences around the school grounds. That's a good start.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Schools where I live have 8 feet chain link fences around the school grounds. That's a good start.

I think it's hilarious that we have to turn schools to make them look like prisons just so people can buy high powered rifles.

 

[Rifler]

Yup. Imo, most who argue for hardening schools don’t realize what all that would entail.

No, I think they do,... In the case of Uvalde a simple normally open contact wired to the building's fire alarm system would have prevented that exit door from being propped open,.. not a big deal.

 

[sober_teacher]

No, I think they do,... In the case of Uvalde a simple normally open contact wired to the building's fire alarm system would have prevented that exit door from being propped open,.. not a big deal.

That’s a relatively small school, and if memory serves, and older building as well.

If you live somewhere that a high school or middle school for example got recently built and/or renovated, drive around the grounds. Count the number of entrances, the number of windows and size of those on the ground floor, etc. there’s virtually no way a lot of them could ever be close to 100% secure.

Where I grew up, Waterloo West is a security nightmare. Not sure when originally built, but as attendance has risen they’ve just added section after section to it. Access points out the ass. Someone wants to get in there, it wouldn’t be hard at all sadly.

 

[Rifler]

That’s a relatively small school, and if memory serves, and older building as well. If you live somewhere that a high school or middle school for example got recently built and/or renovated, drive around the grounds. Count the number of entrances, the number of windows and size of those on the ground floor, etc. there’s virtually no way a lot of them could ever be close to 100% secure.

Monitoring a fire only exit door is extremely low hanging fruit...

 

[sober_teacher]

Monitoring a fire only exit door is extremely low hanging fruit...

When you’re talking potentially dozens of doors?

I’m really not kidding when I talk about Waterloo West as a security nightmare due to all the add-ons. I used to sub a great deal in Waterloo/Cedar Rapids areas, probably a dozen different school districts. The ability to harden any specific school varies incredibly widely based on the school in question. To say nothing of schools with multiple separate buildings on a campus.

 

[billanole]

Sure, that's fair. Maybe I've underestimating it by 300%. Versus the alternative - removing virtually all guns from society, one is doable, and one is not. There is no legislative solution to these kinds of mass shooting incidents...the studies have been done, the data analyzed. Other gun issues, yes, there's an established correlation, but not these.

I appreciate the Uvalde story, but one door being able to be coincidentally unlocked so a shooter got in..that's not hardened. You can't walk into a bank vault or the White House or a Delta flight with an arsenal because someone left a door ajar.

Technology is our friend in this case. If we actually cared about this, we could have an Apollo or Operation Warp speed program to solve the question. "How can we keep people from entering a school with weapons and shooting people" just seems eminently solvable with some technology, innovation and a lot of money.

So maybe you can only harden 50% of our schools in two years. Maybe it takes 10 years to do them all. But if you can literally solve this problem, why not start?

Lou, why do we have to harden our schools? Other countries don’t.
C’mon dude. Why is one of the most guns/capita countries gonna harden schools. You think that will save kids/teachers?
Doesn’t gun availability have any thing to do with this situation?
We have a guns first, people die, situation.
Again, this is an america issue. Guns. Guns. Guns.

 

[sober_teacher]

Lou, why do we have to harden our schools? Other countries don’t.
C’mon dude. Why is one of the most guns/capita countries gonna harden schools. You think that will save kids/teachers?
Doesn’t gun availability have any thing to do with this situation?
We have a guns first, people die, situation.
Again, this is an america issue. Guns. Guns. Guns.

Happens every time the subject comes up, guns are untouchable.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

Happens every time the subject comes up, guns are untouchable.

Yes they are and will remain so.

Go to whatever you anti gun nuts have for plan B

 

[Finance85]

I think it's hilarious that we have to turn schools to make them look like prisons just so people can buy high powered rifles.

I think it's hilarious we have to have DUI checkpoints so people can drive cars.

 

[ClarindaA's]

You get that they didn’t used to be heavily involved in politics right? At least not to the extent they became.

It started from the inception of the NRA, but was way less of the efforts they made. It was more about safety, training, education with some money thrown at protecting the 2nd. When more laws started to be discussed, there was a reactionary wing of the NRA that took over.

 

[ClarindaA's]

Columbine was before social media.

Still trenchcoat wearing, dungeons and dragons playing nerds that killed people

 

[Rifler]

When you’re talking potentially dozens of doors?

It's a school, so for starters their alarm system should be up to code and there shouldn't be dozens of doors to be added to the system,.. Even so, dozens of doors vs dozens of dead kids,... not a big deal.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I think it's hilarious we have to have DUI checkpoints so people can drive cars.

I've never been through one.

Heck I've never even done a test for alcohol.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

When you’re talking potentially dozens of doors?

I’m really not kidding when I talk about Waterloo West as a security nightmare due to all the add-ons. I used to sub a great deal in Waterloo/Cedar Rapids areas, probably a dozen different school districts. The ability to harden any specific school varies incredibly widely based on the school in question. To say nothing of schools with multiple separate buildings on a campus.

Airports have multiple doors yet they are very secure.

Any place can be secured except maybe the border.

 

[sober_teacher]

Airports have multiple doors yet they are very secure.

Any place can be secured except maybe the border.

Part of the design process for airports includes addressing security concerns. Schools aren’t, not least because there are simply so many varieties, designs, sizes.

And sure, they could be secured, I’m just saying it’s a lot harder than you guys are arguing.

And again, I love that this is the argument we have to have, because god forbid we try to do on anything related to guns.

 

[Rifler]

And again, I love that this is the argument we have to have, because god forbid we try to do on anything related to guns.

What are you going to do about guns?,... They exist, that will not change.

 

[BanjoSaysWoof]

This is what a lot of us are saying, something changed, and it wasn’t guns.

A kriss vector isn’t a classic gun. Neither is a M&P15 or a P90 or or or or….

The guns def have changed. Do you even pew pew?

 

[ClarindaA's]

A kriss vector isn’t a classic gun. Neither is a M&P15 or a P90 or or or or….

The guns def have changed. Do you even pew pew?

1911s have been around for 100 years, same with semi auto rifles, I’m not saying they haven’t evolved in design, but the basics are the same

 

[sober_teacher]

What are you going to do about guns?,... They exist, that will not change.

so, we do nothing to try to make it more difficult or try ANYTHING to keep them from troubled individuals?

This apathetic atttitude - "they're here, get used to it" is pathetic.

guns are deadlier than they've ever been, they're not particularly difficult to obtain, they can seemingly be modified/accessorized easier than a Transformer toy...but let's not even ignore this side of the problem.

 

[Rifler]

so, we do nothing to try to make it more difficult or try ANYTHING to keep them from troubled individuals?

This apathetic atttitude - "they're here, get used to it" is pathetic.

guns are deadlier than they've ever been, they're not particularly difficult to obtain, they can seemingly be modified/accessorized easier than a Transformer toy...but let's not even ignore this side of the problem.

Keeping guns away from troubled individuals becomes the responsibility of friends and family of these troubled individuals,... No government directed filter will work better..

 

[sober_teacher]

Keeping guns away from troubled individuals becomes the responsibility of friends and family of these troubled individuals,... No government directed filter will work better..

Well we know your solution isn’t working…

 

[billanole]

Keeping guns away from troubled individuals becomes the responsibility of friends and family of these troubled individuals,... No government directed filter will work better..

Raising kids and providing for family members is also the responsibility of friends and family, but just like with guns, that doesn’t always work out.

 

[RicoSuave102954]

Well we know your solution isn’t working…

The State will eventually bar a multiple time DUI offender from having a drivers license, does that mean they won't get behind the wheel and drive? No!

So per your thinking they would just ban cars all together to ensure that one person doesn't drive drunk again.

 

[sober_teacher]

The State will eventually bar a multiple time DUI offender from having a drivers license, does that mean they won't get behind the wheel and drive? No!

So per your thinking they would just ban cars all together to ensure that one person doesn't drive drunk again.

god, people love to use the horrible car analogy.

and no, at least some would find ways around gun regulations and get guns who shouldn't...but not everyone. Heck, something as simply as requiring full background checks for all gun purchases anywhere in the US, and a longer mandatory waiting period might help deter some who are angry in the moment but have a chance to calm down.

There's obviously no perfect solution, and I've never argued otherwise. But to quote Voltaire - we can't let perfect be the enemy of good. Gun violence, especially in schools, has to be tackled on multiple fronts - guns themselves have to be one of them.

 

[Kelsers]

I think it's hilarious we have to have DUI checkpoints so people can drive cars.

I've been driving for 50 years and have NEVER encountered a check point for DUI.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

No, I think they do,... In the case of Uvalde a simple normally open contact wired to the building's fire alarm system would have prevented that exit door from being propped open,.. not a big deal.

It wasn’t propped open as I understand it. It was closed and the lock failed to engage. I believe surveillance video confirmed that.