Strategy against Spencer

[hawkaeg80]

I think it's become clear that the strategy against Spencer is to dance and bop and generally stay away from him. The guy Spencer beat for the national championship "wrestled" that way. The guy he beat last night did too. The question is this: Are the refs going to allow this tactic or will they call stalling and make the guys wrestle him?

 

[TarpHawk]

I don't know, but I know that's what I'd do too if I had to wrestle Spencer...keep my distance, subtly straddle the edges, circle back only when necessary, and shoot him off the mat or in the final 10 seconds of a period when there's less chance of being countered but I get the ref off my back for another 30 seconds. That's pretty much what we're seeing.

 

[Cruo]

It clearly isn't a winning strategy, so it isn't going to help at the national tournament when you need to win to advance. Camacho is a top 5 guy and could wrestle Spencer 100 times with that strategy and lose 100 times.

I actually noticed Spencer taking a more strategic approach in his matches from neutral. He needs more matches that count to fully adjust. His wrestling IQ is off the charts, and he'll get it figured out with more mat time. Practice, even when going live, isn't going to give him the same feel.

 

[IRONBIRD]

This really brings a few items that need to be addressed to mind. Hopefully everyone saw as clearly as the OP and I, the "bob and weave strategy" against Lee. There are rules in place that when followed correctly, prevent this avoiding action BS!!!

Another item was the mat size. I assume these were from some local HS or something, but the mats were way too small. This leads me to these two items. 1) There should be a new standard for a minimum mat size. It should be at least the size of the current IOWA mat if not even bigger! 2) A PUSH OUT rule HAS TO be put in like FS!!!

I remember reading about the famous GAINT mat and how they wrestle against maybe Okie state? and there was only two stoppages for going out of bounds. How great would that be?!?!? This playing the edge, getting to the edge, backing out etc..... is bad for the sport.

As for the OPs concerns about this strategy. The biggest problem as I see it will be at NCAAs as you get deeper into the tournament. The finals in particular have been nothing short of a sh!tshow with the REFs swallowing their whistles.

With it being The HAWKS against the world. We know most coaches and teams will be against an IOWA style wrestling, (which is aggressive, attacking, looking to score for those who do not know) and continue to be against any rules that will force action.

It works in FS, and it will work in Folk-style too!

 

[NothingMeaningful]

I think it's become clear that the strategy against Spencer is to dance and bop and generally stay away from him. The guy Spencer beat for the national championship "wrestled" that way. The guy he beat last night did too. The question is this: Are the refs going to allow this tactic or will they call stalling and make the guys wrestle him?

Arujau will not adopt that strategy if/when they face each other.

I might as well say it: the Vito of this tournament would beat the Spencer of this tournament.

 

[Grip220]

None of the guys that are running have any chance of beating Spencer, the guys that are the biggest threat to Spencer are Suriano,Vito,Glory in that order. Spencer will wrestle the others smart and take what he needs. Stick to the plan and what he does best , that is all.

 

[sstark46]

Camacho is a tough wrestler and wrestled "the strategy" perfectly and still didn't come in danger of winning the match. I do think Spencer was a little more tactical this weekend too, not trying to force anything, basically if they aren't trying to attack and win, why put himself in bad situations.

While I was hoping he would bonus everyone this year, I'm sure going the distance in 2 of his first 3 matches will do more good for him from a mat time / conditioning standpoint. It's not like he barely held on to win the matches, either

 

[iowaHOXXX]

Arujau will not adopt that strategy if/when they face each other.

I might as well say it: the Vito of this tournament would beat the Spencer of this tournament.

If Vito engages and attempts to repeatedly generate his own offense he will lose.

 

[Junglekitty]

I mentioned it already, it was good to see Spencer on the mat again. However, I'm not sure if he's 100%. (Obviously he's not, he doesn't have any acls). The Spencer we saw on the mat this weekend, may be the new Spencer, at least through NCAAs. He is still dominant in all three phases, just maybe not as dominant.

Spencer's goals obviously haven't changed. What I believe has changed is the route that he has to use to get there. It was never a big secret, Spencer had a habit of fading, especially when the match went to the third. I know that was basically never, but when it did, Spencer faded. With Spencer not being able to train like he did, that means a few things. He now has to be more cerebral in his attacks. Instead of fighting his way through head hands and getting to his high c for the dump with all muscle, he waits for it to be there. Instead of constantly driving the head lever and muscling into the wing, he slows it way down. I noticed with Camacho, he wasn't trying to turn him as hard as he used to. Last year, after a few attempts at a turn, he would get mad and you were going one way or another. Now, its more of the chess match.

I have watched Spencer since he was about 8 years old. If there was one wrestler in the field, I wouldn't be against, it would be him. He may not bonus his way through the tournament this year, but I'm thinking he's still at the top of podium. My dad used to tell me "they don't remember how you won the fight, just if you won the fight."

 

[Chips28]

Arujau will not adopt that strategy if/when they face each other.

I might as well say it: the Vito of this tournament would beat the Spencer of this tournament.

You might as well delete your account also

 

[Chips28]

You could tell Spencer has been taking a different approach. More takedowns, look for turn without really forcing it, if not just ride. I’d expect this will be the strategy for most of the season until tournament time.

 

[boho1]

This really brings a few items that need to be addressed to mind. Hopefully everyone saw as clearly as the OP and I, the "bob and weave strategy" against Lee. There are rules in place that when followed correctly, prevent this avoiding action BS!!!

Another item was the mat size. I assume these were from some local HS or something, but the mats were way too small. This leads me to these two items. 1) There should be a new standard for a minimum mat size. It should be at least the size of the current IOWA mat if not even bigger! 2) A PUSH OUT rule HAS TO be put in like FS!!!

I remember reading about the famous GAINT mat and how they wrestle against maybe Okie state? and there was only two stoppages for going out of bounds. How great would that be?!?!? This playing the edge, getting to the edge, backing out etc..... is bad for the sport.

As for the OPs concerns about this strategy. The biggest problem as I see it will be at NCAAs as you get deeper into the tournament. The finals in particular have been nothing short of a sh!tshow with the REFs swallowing their whistles.

With it being The HAWKS against the world. We know most coaches and teams will be against an IOWA style wrestling, (which is aggressive, attacking, looking to score for those who do not know) and continue to be against any rules that will force action.

It works in FS, and it will work in Folk-style too!

 

[HawkFan1986]

This really brings a few items that need to be addressed to mind. Hopefully everyone saw as clearly as the OP and I, the "bob and weave strategy" against Lee. There are rules in place that when followed correctly, prevent this avoiding action BS!!!

Another item was the mat size. I assume these were from some local HS or something, but the mats were way too small. This leads me to these two items. 1) There should be a new standard for a minimum mat size. It should be at least the size of the current IOWA mat if not even bigger! 2) A PUSH OUT rule HAS TO be put in like FS!!!

I remember reading about the famous GAINT mat and how they wrestle against maybe Okie state? and there was only two stoppages for going out of bounds. How great would that be?!?!? This playing the edge, getting to the edge, backing out etc..... is bad for the sport.

As for the OPs concerns about this strategy. The biggest problem as I see it will be at NCAAs as you get deeper into the tournament. The finals in particular have been nothing short of a sh!tshow with the REFs swallowing their whistles.

With it being The HAWKS against the world. We know most coaches and teams will be against an IOWA style wrestling, (which is aggressive, attacking, looking to score for those who do not know) and continue to be against any rules that will force action.

It works in FS, and it will work in Folk-style too!

Isn’t it depressing when you write that most people are against Iowa style and Iowa style is the style that leads to more point scoring. What happened at last years NCAA finals was an embarrassment, and I believe a black eye on the way the current rules are being enforced.

Another issue is that it’s harder to score on the Spencer Lee’s of the world. So it becomes a strategy of only looking to counter wrestle, which leads to edge wrestling, backing off of the mat, and whistles being swallowed. I now firmly believe that a step out rule is needed for folk style.

At some point this season I hope to see Spencer just waiting at center mat every time an opposing wrestler disengages. How could the refs not call stalling if one wrestler is just dancing around the mat while the other is engaging in the center? Long story short, the stalling rule is broken, and cowards are using this fact to their advantage to attempt to steal a match late or by frustrating an offensive wrestler into a less than ideal shot.

If everyone truly wanted to “grow the sport”, this would be the first thing they would fix. There are wrestlers on this Iowa team that are guilty of only looking for counter shots and it has cost them in the past. We all know who those guys are.

 

[mizzoufan90]

Vito will engage and can out scramble Spencer Lee. If I'm Mike Grey, I tell Vito to get into as many funky positions as possible with Lee and let's see how his knees hold up after 5 or 6 scrambles.

 

[just_somebody]

At some point this season I hope to see Spencer just waiting at center mat every time an opposing wrestler disengages.

Been saying this for a while, and was going to say it here too until i saw you had.

I'd like to see a match where he doesn't leave the center circle. Would probably solve any 3rd period fade issues too if he isn't chasing guys all around the mat.

 

[hawkman37]

Does anyone else feel like we dont see stalling called in neutral unless there is an out of bounce? Since the out of bounce stall rule change, its like the only way they call it is if the wrestler backs out and a restart is needed. If you are backing off and circle at the edge, just to back off to the other side of the cylinder, thats stalling too. If you simply sit on a knee and block off, thats stalling. I will not argue that Iowa wrestlers never stall either.
Also, I haven't seen SLee lose a scramble yet. It can happen, hell Lincoln lost in scrambles he never had before. To predict it tho is just crazy talk. Suriano was in deep about to score and lee ended on top. look at the freestyle matches. Hell he pinned NATO in a scramble with the hulk hogan leg hold.

 

[poorwrestler]

There are ways to wrestle defensively without stalling. If you are not pushing attacks but are maintaining position in the center of the mat, I’m generally not calling stalling. If you are working the edge of the mat while still attacking or pursuing, I’m not calling stalling.

If you are working the edge of the mat and not pursuing or attacking, that’s stalling 10/10. That’s the strategy most will have against Lee.

 

[MSU158]

Vito will engage and can out scramble Spencer Lee. If I'm Mike Grey, I tell Vito to get into as many funky positions as possible with Lee and let's see how his knees hold up after 5 or 6 scrambles.

But, the only way this really works is if he scores 1st and then runs after. Spencer is REALLY good when his opponents fully engage in neutral(meaning collar ties or hand fighting). So Vito "engaging" would be best served in attacks from space.

After that, you still have to deal with how dominant Spencer can be on top. Simply put, Vito would have to wrestle the perfect tactical match to beat him.

I get hating that Lee is a generational talent on the "Darth Vader" team, but I see way too many selling him short. Even with injured knees he hasn't lost in almost 3 years. On top of that, he has PROVEN that he steps it up multiple levels at NCAA's. I mean the closest match he has had at 3 NCAA's is a 5-1 win over Suriano. So far he has shown NOTHING to think he is beatable at that tournament!

 

[iowaHOXXX]

Vito will engage and can out scramble Spencer Lee. If I'm Mike Grey, I tell Vito to get into as many funky positions as possible with Lee and let's see how his knees hold up after 5 or 6 scrambles.

Vito is not a better scrambler than Spencer. Watch their freestyle match.

 

[blcoach80]

This nailed it. The strategy against Spencer will be back to the edge and dive out of bounds if you get caught out of position. They are hoping to keep it close and maybe get lucky and counter a sloppy shot to steal one in the end against someone they have no business beating. Basically avoid wrestling as long as the ref will allow it. This will not change this year as the refs do allow it most of the time so why would they switch strategies? Gonna make bonus hard to come by and has to be frustrating as hell for the aggressive wrestlers. I say just hold center and force the refs hand. Quit chasing them around until you get caught out of position. Spencer actually did this last year against Courtney at the end. Made me laugh, but forced Courtney to engage at least at the end. Sad that stalling/counter wrestling is a strategy anymore, regardless of who is doing it. Not helping the sport in any way.

 

[Muscles1989]

I am so glad everyone else is seeing what I did from ncaas last year and over the weekend. Nobody wants to let Lee come near them in neutral, and when on bottom just post to avoid tilts. I think spencer sees who his top competition is and chances of him turning them are not great with this tactic.

 

[mizzoufan90]

Vito is not a better scrambler than Spencer. Watch their freestyle match.

From 2019? That's your reference point?

 

[Jcchawk]

From 2019? That's your reference point?

Maybe the reference point that no one came close last year at NCAA's. Two weeks after he tore his second ACL. No one will come close to beating Spencer this year either. They may stall to a 4-5 point loss. People that engage will not beat Spencer. That includes your boy Vito.

 

[McIlraveysMullet]

From 2019? That's your reference point?

And your reference point is what?

 

[MSU158]

And your reference point is what?

A distinct need, want, desire for Iowa's best wrestler to lose??

 

[dtripp26]

And your reference point is what?

Make believe like most of the chit he posts.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I didn't see any of Spencer's matches, I listened to two of them on the radio though. But in general, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that stalling was called much more frequently in these meets than I recall in any recent time. I think Iowa received two wins via the other dude being stalled out...which, while deserved, surprised me.

Did the ref(s) avoid stalling in the Lee matches? Or were the opponents just crafty enough to avoid them? I think I remember Steven Grace remarking that even Spencer got called for stalling. Just curious.

 

[Redm18]

I think the stalling out we are seeing is pretty much just because of the new rule on going off the mat. I'm not sure I love it or honestly entirely understand it but it is a step in the right direction in my opinion.

 

[js8793]

Camacho is a tough wrestler and wrestled "the strategy" perfectly and still didn't come in danger of winning the match. I do think Spencer was a little more tactical this weekend too, not trying to force anything, basically if they aren't trying to attack and win, why put himself in bad situations.

While I was hoping he would bonus everyone this year, I'm sure going the distance in 2 of his first 3 matches will do more good for him from a mat time / conditioning standpoint. It's not like he barely held on to win the matches, either

i agree with you. i think his whole approach was different this weekend. he actually wrestled it like he wrestled at the us open, especially against NATO. a very steady controlled pace, patiently taking ground and not forcing anything. in the past we’ve seen him build some big leads and then look a little shaky late and give ground and give up scores. this weekend he looked to be in control and in position start to finish. that’s a promising sign when he gets into dog fights against guys like suriano.

 

[iowaHOXXX]

And your reference point is what?

He probably thinks Vito’s win over Brody Teske is a good measuring stick .

In Spencer’s first competition back he got a tech fall, a shutout major over #11, and then an incredibly controlled win over Camacho on the second day and people say he looked “off” even with those results.

Spencer is the man until proven otherwise.

 

[LIV4GOD]

I don't like how the refs call Spencer for stalling late in the third, but failed to call Camacho for stalling with his constant circling away.

I suppose someone could put that into their strategy. There is a strong Iowa bias when it comes to calling stalling against us. Don't advance for a few seconds and here it comes.

 

[HawkMachine]

If he has to win 6-1, 6-3, 4-3, etc. so be it.

Just win baby.

 

[MVPFAN]

I don't like how the refs call Spencer for stalling late in the third, but failed to call Camacho for stalling with his constant circling away.

I suppose someone could put that into their strategy. There is a strong Iowa bias when it comes to calling stalling against us. Don't advance for a few seconds and here it comes.

That's typical BS. Let a guy be defensive all match and then call the guy who has been initiating the action all match for stalling late when the other guy finally has a pulse.

 

[NothingMeaningful]

But, the only way this really works is if he scores 1st and then runs after. Spencer is REALLY good when his opponents fully engage in neutral(meaning collar ties or hand fighting). So Vito "engaging" would be best served in attacks from space.

After that, you still have to deal with how dominant Spencer can be on top. Simply put, Vito would have to wrestle the perfect tactical match to beat him.

I get hating that Lee is a generational talent on the "Darth Vader" team, but I see way too many selling him short. Even with injured knees he hasn't lost in almost 3 years. On top of that, he has PROVEN that he steps it up multiple levels at NCAA's. I mean the closest match he has had at 3 NCAA's is a 5-1 win over Suriano. So far he has shown NOTHING to think he is beatable at that tournament!

I'm certainly not a Spencer Lee hater (why would anyone be a Spencer Lee hater? TnT, sure, but not SL

If you didn't know their histories, and you watched Arujau's and SL's matches, you'd very likely say that Arujau would win a bout between them.

 

[SPOONER]

I'm certainly not a Spencer Lee hater (why would anyone be a Spencer Lee hater? TnT, sure, but not SL

If you didn't know their histories, and you watched Arujau's and SL's matches, you'd very likely say that Arujau would win a bout between them.

His best win is over a guy who lost to Iowa State's backup. But OK.

 

[Scruddy]

Yes, typically stalling and hoping for one big attempt at the end of the match is a pretty reliable strategy when you know you're outgunned. Here is hoping glory, arujau and suriano (if we see him at all/at 125) actually wrestle the whole time looking to prove they're the best. Expect more of the mid-tier aa types to implement this strategy though.

 

[bawlmerhawk]

Well, the last two times he faced Courtney were in the finals (NCAA finals and last night), and Courtney tried the same strategy with the same results -- no major, but a comfortable win for SL. So yeah, we're probably gonna see his opponents try the same to wrestle Spencer the same way ... and lose.

 

[MSU158]

Well, the last two times he faced Courtney were in the finals (NCAA finals and last night), and Courtney tried the same strategy with the same results -- no major, but a comfortable win for SL. So yeah, we're probably gonna see his opponents try the same to wrestle Spencer the same way ... and lose.

Huh? Methinks you may be a tad bit confused. He wrestled Camacho from NCState last night. Courtney wrestles for ASU...

 

[bawlmerhawk]

Huh? Methinks you may be a tad bit confused. He wrestled Camacho from NCState last night. Courtney wrestles for ASU...

Thanks for catching that.

 

[blcoach80]

This was my thoughts. Imagine being so good that with no ACLs and a 9 month break you easily win 3 controlled matches without giving up 1 offensive point to your opponents (two ranked in the top 11) and people say you looked "rusty". Sit back and enjoy the show because he is as good as it gets.

He probably thinks Vito’s win over Brody Teske is a good measuring stick .

In Spencer’s first competition back he got a tech fall, a shutout major over #11, and then an incredibly controlled win over Camacho on the second day and people say he looked “off” even with those results.

Spencer is the man until proven otherwise.