Teacher's Unions: WTF? Who can justify them?

[Herkmeister]

As is the objective of any trade union. Is the job of the UAW to build better cars..or is it to work for the betterment of its members? C'mon Herk, I think you're better than this. It is the duty of local school boards to strive to improve the education of their students. This "blaming someone else for what I see as a problem" blather is the #1 symptom of what might be wrong with America today. Overall, the education today's youth receives is of a much higher quality than what I received 50 years ago. Most of what I see wrong with education today stems from parents who are trying to relive their youth via their children's lives and schooling. Let the kids struggle and occasionally fail, support them and their efforts and allow them to learn. Don't protect them from failure and/or difficulty.
Also, economics is a huge player in who receives a quality education and who doesn't. Failures in education are much deeper than teacher unions.

Point taken and I agree with much. My post was over the top too.

Your point on economics resonates with the high drop out rates in Iowa's most economically challenged communities.

Sometimes I just have to stir the pot. A bad habit I'm trying to change.

 

[BioHawk]

^^^^^^^
BioHawk...you live in Wisconsin? This is just about exactly what Walker's "education program" entails. My S-i-L retired 2 years ago when Walker released the details of "his plan." Walker's idea of a great Wisconsin education includes a one room school somewhere in "his" plan.

No, but I have family that does. Hey, at least all those cuts paid for a new Arena for the Bucks.

 

[BioHawk]

I'm arguing from personal experience (I was expelled from public school for repeatedly getting caught with marijuana).

Wow. This explains everything. Sorry you're pissed off at teachers and schools because you made bad choices.

 

[The Tradition]

Wow. This explains everything. Sorry you're pissed off at teachers and schools because you made bad choices.

If that's what you got from my little life story, you got it way wrong.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Actually, yes. Churches get tax exemptions. The taxes nevertheless get paid. Meaning that the rest of us pay extra taxes to cover the Churches' share of taxes.

Since unions are tax exempt as well I guess the rest of us pay for for the unions share of taxes plus all these others..............and Planned Parenthood............and the ACLU............and the Southern Poverty Law Office...........the Clinton Global Initiative..........PETA.............American Atheists.............NAACP.........American Secular Humanists Association.......Freedom from Religion Foundation.........Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation.........Anti Defamation League......etc,etc,etc

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

Typically clueless. Private schools and semi-privatized public schools tend to get away with cherry picking the better students. Most of us have no trouble following that thought process to its logical conclusion.

No. Better parents cherry pick the school they choose to sent their children to.

 

[22*43*51]

It's simple.

State/Federal employees cannot have a fixed agreement in a variable market.

Most State's CBA's operate in fantasy.

When the variable markets goes south(like now) the public Unions say "F#ck You". "Pay Me".

Then they play the victim card..."But...But... The agreement?"

 

[BioHawk]

It's simple.

State/Federal employees cannot have a fixed agreement in a variable market.

Most State's CBA's operate in fantasy.

When the variable markets goes south(like now) the public Unions say "F#ck You". "Pay Me".

Then they play the victim card..."But...But... The agreement?"

It's called a contract. Perhaps you've heard of these things?

It's the same reason when I have a loan or a credit card bill due and I lose my job I can't just quit paying. The bank says, "F*ck you, pay me". Something tells me you wouldn't be so forgiving of me if I were in that situation though.

 

[22*43*51]

It's called a contract. Perhaps you've heard of these things?

It's the same reason when I have a loan or a credit card bill due and I lose my job I can't just quit paying. The bank says, "F*ck you, pay me". Something tells me you wouldn't be so forgiving of me if I were in that situation though.

I get "contract". You don't.

The current IPERS contract has an expected return of 7.5%.

Do you really think that is happening this year? Or, definitely last year?

When that assumption pushes up against reality, what do you think happens?

The market doesn't support the 7.5% agreement, so the tax payers make up the difference. "F#ck You, Pay Me!" Is the stance of the State Employee.

Just like the Mob.

That is why collective bargaining fails. It is fixed and the markets are variable.

How do you, or anyone not get this?

 

[BioHawk]

I get "contract". You don't.

The current IPERS contract has an expected return of 7.5%.

Do you really think that is happening this year? Or, definitely last year?

When that assumption pushes up against reality, what do you think happens?

The market doesn't support the 7.5% agreement, so the tax payers make up the difference. "F#ck You, Pay Me!" Is the stance of the State Employee.

Just like the Mob.

That is why collective bargaining fails. It is fixed and the markets are variable.

How do you, or anyone not get this?

A contract is negotiated. Somebody had to agree to those terms. You can't just change the terms of a contract midway through it because you don't like it. Not sure why you don't get that.

 

[22*43*51]

A contract is negotiated. Somebody had to agree to those terms. You can't just change the terms of a contract midway through it because you don't like it. Not sure why you don't get that.

True.

You just keep bankrupting state after state(i.e. "F#ck You, Pay Me")

The rest of us will continue to try finding a solvent future.

 

[The Tradition]

Being coerced into entering into a contract is usually grounds to have the contract found to be unenforceable. But not in the labor world. That's just business as usual. Go on strike. Scream nasty crap. Put a giant inflatable rat across the street. If that's not coercion, I don't know what is.

 

[naturalmwa]

No. Better parents cherry pick the school they choose to sent their children to.

True, but that's just another big reason the comparison is skewed.

 

[22*43*51]

True, but that's just another big reason the comparison is skewed.

Not sure how you supported that statement, because I don't know what the hell it says....

 

[naturalmwa]

Not sure how you supported that statement, because I don't know what the hell it says....

Did I spell something wrong?

 

[joelbc1]

If you were intending to communicate a message that we should pay public teachers more, you will need to work on your communications skills. That is not the message being received.

Which is, as it should be. America offers PUBLIC EDUCATION to all it citizens. It is those citizens who believe their shit doesn't stink, who opt for "private" education. You can quote me on that, too. These folks who honestly believe they are better than the rest of us, can finance their education program and use their uncertified teachers to do their work.

 

[22*43*51]

Did I spell something wrong?

No. Your champion is all over the place.

 

[JRHawk2003]

A collective bargaining contract is no different than any other contract. You can debate an old style pension like IPERS vs a defined contribution plan, but they are not the same thing. There are many non union people on IPERS.

 

[IFlyEm]

I do think they've had a negative impact. According too our school districts website my daughter's 4th grade teacher was compensated $110,043 last year and she was horrible. Not too bad of a gig though...2 months off every summer, a week off for Thanksgiving, 2 1/2 weeks off for Christmas and New Year's. Then all the other days off throughout the year. We start school the second week in August and go through the second week in June.

 

[naturalmwa]

Which is, as it should be. America offers PUBLIC EDUCATION to all it citizens. It is those citizens who believe their shit doesn't stink, who opt for "private" education. You can quote me on that, too. These folks who honestly believe they are better than the rest of us, can finance their education program and use their uncertified teachers to do their work.

I'm nearly certain most private school teachers are certified. I would expect that is the law in most states. We had a thread on here a few months ago where some group ranked Iowa less free because it forced some sort of certification on home school teachers. I may not have the details exactly right, but that's how I remember the topic.

 

[22*43*51]

A collective bargaining contract is no different than any other contract. You can debate an old style pension like IPERS vs a defined contribution plan, but they are not the same thing. There are many non union people on IPERS.

I know. Fixed pension agreements are disastrous.

But, they still are re-upped again, and again.

Regardless of how damaging they are.

 

[BioHawk]

True.

You just keep bankrupting state after state(i.e. "F#ck You, Pay Me")

The rest of us will continue to try to finding a solvent future.

I don't do shit. Just because state legislatures over spend on other things and fail to finance the contracts the way they are written is not the Union's fault. The true crime is no one was able to stop the legislature from doing that. I can't speak for all states, but in mine the unions were not allowed to sue the state for failing to meet its pension obligations. And now it's the union's fault that the state doesn't have enough money to pay for it? Had the state funded the pensions the way it was written in the contract, rather than using the pension fund as their personal ATM none of this would be happening right now. So you're damn right, f*** you, pay me. They don't get to manufacture a crisis and expect the victims to bail them out of it. That's why contracts were created.

 

[naturalmwa]

No. Your champion is all over the place.

I still don't follow, but I'm glad he gets around.

 

[joelbc1]

I'm nearly certain most private school teachers are certified. I would expect that is the law in most states. We had a thread on here a few months ago where some group ranked Iowa less free because it forced some sort of certification on home school teachers. I may not have the details exactly right, but that's how I remember the topic.

Perhaps..but if so, it is a result of legislation in the past 20 years. Growing up in my hometown back in the day, the other school had teachers who were not certified in elementary and HS. Now I graduated in 1967...but that situation did not resolve itself over night. The argument was they had teachers who were qualified eventhough not so by the State.

 

[22*43*51]

I don't do shit. Just because state legislatures over spend on other things and fail to finance the contracts the way they are written is not the Union's fault. The true crime is no one was able to stop the legislature from doing that. I can't speak for all states, but in mine the unions were not allowed to sue the state for failing to meet its pension obligations. And now it's the union's fault that the doesn't have enough money to pay for it? Had the state funded the penisons the way it was written in the contract, rather than using the pension fund as their personal ATM none of this would be happening right now. So you're damn right, f*** you, pay me. They don't get to manufacture a crisis and expect the victims to bail them out of it. That's why contracts were created.

We agree.

Take pensions out of the inept hands of government and place them into the hands of the variable market.

Government workers are our servants. They should ride the market like the rest of us.

 

[BioHawk]

I do think they've had a negative impact. According too our school districts website my daughter's 4th grade teacher was compensated $110,043 last year and she was horrible. Not too bad of a gig though...2 months off every summer, a week off for Thanksgiving, 2 1/2 weeks off for Christmas and New Year's. Then all the other days off throughout the year. We start school the second week in August and go through the second week in June.

Good God, not this crap again. For the ten thousandth time, teachers are NOT paid for time off.

Sorry your child's teacher sucked. Sounds like an administrative issue.

 

[joelbc1]

We agree.

Take pensions out of the inept hands of government and place them into the hands of the variable market.

Government workers are our servants. They should ride the market like the rest of us.

Yeah...like Enron! Or a hundred other privates who took the money and ran.

 

[BioHawk]

We agree.

Take pensions out of the inept hands of government and place them into the hands of the variable market.

Government workers are our servants. They should ride the market like the rest of us.

The government actually did very well with our pensions. Just ask our current governor. He made a lot of his fortune off of managing state pensions. That's why they raided it for money.

 

[IFlyEm]

Good God, not this crap again. For the ten thousandth time, teachers are NOT paid for time off.

Sorry your child's teacher sucked. Sounds like an administrative issue.

Why would you need to be paid "time off" if you're making $110,000?

And true, it may be an administration issue. But under the protection of a union it makes poor teachers tough to terminate.

 

[JRHawk2003]

FYI: IPERS funds are invested in the market.

 

[22*43*51]

Perhaps..but if so, it is a result of legislation in the past 20 years. Growing up in my hometown back in the day, the other school had teachers who were not certified in elementary and HS. Now I graduated in 1967...but that situation did not resolve itself over night. The argument was they had teachers who were qualified eventhough not so by the State.

Joel. Your hometown(Pella) would have regurgitated you time and again.

Pella is arguably the most successful, conservative, Iowa town that likey wouldn't feel you would have anything to add.

They likely ran your ancestors out on a rail, as it is.

 

[BioHawk]

Why would you need to be paid "time off" if you're making $110,000?

And true, it may be an administration issue. But under the protection of a union it makes poor teachers tough to terminate.

I do question that $110,000 number. I didn't realize anybody in Iowa got paid that much for teaching. Is she also coaching? Maybe she does something on the administrative side and gets a stipend? Are there other teachers at the school making that much?

Not sure how it works in Iowa but "union protection" is also a load of crap. Outside of New York City, unions do not protect poor teachers. All administrators have to do is perform their job and it's really not that hard to get rid of a bad teacher. Most administrators just don't spend the time to do that though.

 

[joelbc1]

I do think they've had a negative impact. According too our school districts website my daughter's 4th grade teacher was compensated $110,043 last year and she was horrible. Not too bad of a gig though...2 months off every summer, a week off for Thanksgiving, 2 1/2 weeks off for Christmas and New Year's. Then all the other days off throughout the year. We start school the second week in August and go through the second week in June.

Does the teacher or the union make the yearly calandar? I doubt it. The specifics of the school's schedule is drawn up and adopted by the local school board. It is PARENTS who demand extended Christmas and Spring breaks for their children so they can take "family" vacations..it ain't the teachers. The school board is far more responsive to parent groups than they are teacher organizations.

 

[naturalmwa]

Why would you need to be paid "time off" if you're making $110,000?

And true, it may be an administration issue. But under the protection of a union it makes poor teachers tough to terminate.

Damn my preconceptions on what teachers make must be way off. I would have guessed teachers topped off at about half that amount for elementary school. I'm glad we solved the whole teacher pay issue while I was sleeping.

 

[22*43*51]

The government actually did very well with our pensions. Just ask our current governor. He made a lot of his fortune off of managing state pensions. That's why they raided it for money.

If the "government" ever did well by your pensions it was luck given by the randomness of the markets and general economy.

Fixed contracts are a great sign that Unions are not smart enough to understand economics.

Or, they do and this is just their coercive nature.

 

[22*43*51]

Does the teacher or the union make the yearly calandar? I doubt it. The specifics of the school's schedule is drawn up and adopted by the local school board. It is PARENTS who demand extended Christmas and Spring breaks for their children so they can take "family" vacations..it ain't the teachers. The school board is far more responsive to parent groups than they are teacher organizations.

Dementia has taken over your life.

It happened to my Dad.

T's and P's.

 

[joelbc1]

Joel. Your hometown(Pella) would have regurgitated you time and again.

Pella is arguably the most successful, conservative, Iowa town that likey wouldn't feel you would have anything to add.

They likely ran your ancestors out on a rail, as it is.

You know 22, you really don't have anything to say, If you did, you'd just keep your mouth shut on this one. They did run us out of town 22.......parents died there and my dad served a mayor and councilman there for over 30 years (and he was a Roosevelt Democrat), my mom raised 4 of us and taught school there for 25 years and we kids moved on after school. It was a pretty sweet life for all of us.
What makes Pella unique is that it truly cherishes quality education (Central College, Pella Community Schools and Pella Christian School) and has 3-4 extremely successful international manufacturing corporations that keep the folks busy. The people of Pella don't agree on much but they all agree on betterment of the community as a whole as a #1 priority. And they don't care if you're a Democrat, a Republican, a Reformed or Christian Reformed or a Catholic. When something needs to be done, Pella can still get her done. You can bullshit me about a lot of stuff here 22, but don't bullshit me something I know quite a bit about.

 

[22*43*51]

You know 22, you really don't have anything to say, If you did, you'd just keep your mouth shut on this one. They did run us out of town 22.......parents died there and my dad served a mayor and councilman there for over 30 years (and he was a Roosevelt Democrat), my mom raised 4 of us and taught school there for 25 years and we kids moved on after school. It was a pretty sweet life for all of us.
What makes Pella unique is that it truly cherishes quality education (Central College, Pella Community Schools and Pella Christian School) and has 3-4 extremely successful international manufacturing corporations that keep the folks busy. The people of Pella don't agree on much but they all agree on betterment of the community as a whole as a #1 priority. And they don't care if you're a Democrat, a Republican, a Reformed or Christian Reformed or a Catholic. When something needs to be done, Pella can still get her done. You can bullshit me about a lot of stuff here 22, but don't bullshit me something I know quite a bit about.

I know quite a bit about this as well, though I don't give as much information as you do.

I just like pointing out the dichotomy of your current policy alignment with your often bragged about upbringing.

They are most definitely not in alignment.

To the point where there may be bitterness.(as is hinted in this latest revelation)

It is always fascinating.

 

[JRHawk2003]

Oh I think they understand economics just fine. Its about getting the best deal for their members, just like anyone else.

 

[joelbc1]

I know quite a bit about this as well, though I don't give as much information as you do.

I just like pointing out the dichotomy of your current policy alignment with your often bragged about upbringing.

They are most definitely not in alignment.

To the point where there may be bitterness.(as is hinted in this latest revelation)

It is always fascinating.

Animal;s are products of their genes and their location.
My heredity was liberal, my environment was conservative.....I think I rep both well. I think sometimes you do get a wee bit personal....but if your from Pella (and old Pella), I understand that and I can forgive you. You can't help it. You just can't. That is probably the main reason I moved (and stayed) away. I know right from wrong and I don't need your help in making these decisions for me.
My "brag" on my upbringing???? Well, I guess I am proof that one can be a Democrat of the Grandest Tradition even though I was raised in a sea of conservatism. I am proud that my parents allowed me to think for myself....even if they didn't always agree with me. My experiences and my upbringing have made me who I am today. And I'm still on the right side of the jail bars.