The "Old" NCAA Wrestling Championship Format

[WesternPA]

I'm speaking of when some of the DII and DIII guys would qualify for the D1 tournament (until Carlton Haselrig had to go and ruin it for everbody!)

Questions I have:

When did this format end?

Did it indeed stop because of Haselrig's success? If that is the case, am I the only one that thinks that is ridiculous?

My understanding is Haselrig won it 2X. I wonder what he was seeded the year after he won it? Would've had to have been the top seed, no?

What other DII and DIII guys had any success wrestling the big boys? Any other make it to the podium?

Just looking to start a discussion. Feel free to post links on the topic as well. Thanks!

 

[TNTwrestle]

I'm speaking of when some of the DII and DIII guys would qualify for the D1 tournament (until Carlton Haselrig had to go and ruin it for everbody!)

Questions I have:

When did this format end?

Did it indeed stop because of Haselrig's success? If that is the case, am I the only one that thinks that is ridiculous?

My understanding is Haselrig won it 2X. I wonder what he was seeded the year after he won it? Would've had to have been the top seed, no?

What other DII and DIII guys had any success wrestling the big boys? Any other make it to the podium?

Just looking to start a discussion. Feel free to post links on the topic as well. Thanks!

Not sure if this is some kind of troll job, but if it is I don't get what you're trolling, so I'll play.

It ended in the early '90s, I believe '92, but won't swear to that. The guy that beat Brinzer his freshman year when he was at OSU was from Portland State which was a DII school (I believe his name was Dan Russell, but I could be way off on that).

Haselrig was a 6X Champion, 3 DII and 3 DI. He had nothing to do with the rule change.

Lots of guys made it to the podium (several UNI guys when they were DII) and a few others were Champs. My memory is really foggy on this, but a couple very prominent early '70s Champs were DII and DIII. I believe Wade Schalles was one.

 

[ginormous.headed.circus.midget]

My understanding is the biggest reason was the change in eligibility or how it was measured.

D1 - you are eligible for 5 years to compete in 4.

D2 and D3, there eligibility is measured differently. An individual with 2 D1 years remaining, could sit out each fall semester and be eligible for 4 D3 NCAA tournaments.

If all things were equal, we would probably still see a few competing in the D1 tournament.

 

[TS568]

Tim Kreiger beat a guy from Montclair St. (Division 3) in the finals one year in a very close match. The guy had a teammate that placed at 118 or 126 too.

 

[Tiger158]

Wrestled in DII. I think 1991 was last year we could compete in DI. I wrestled at the time of Haselrig, amazing athlete. Lower academic entrance standards to get into DII and DIII played a factor as well. Really was a unique thing wrestling had going. I think it made DII’s quality better. Guys would opt to wrestle at DII institution knowing they had a chance at competing at DI nationals.

 

[JasonBryant]

The timeframe was from 1974 (the first year there were three pronounced divisions) through 1991, which would have been the last year athletes would have been allowed to compete. If you were a freshman when the opportunity existed, you were grandfathered in. Russell was one of those athletes. He was a sophomore when Haselrig won his final Division I championship. The decision made was during Haselrig's tenure, so those athletes would have a chance to "finish out" the time.

While some feel Haselrig had nothing to do with it, others think the opposite, even terming it the "Haselrig Rule." That's up for discussion as it's a matter of perception.

The NCAA enacted Prop 48 in 1986, which is where much of this MIGHT have originated. I was seven at the time, so I'm only going based on what I can find and have been told over the years. While some say it was D1 coaches bellyaching about D2/D3 guys "hiding out" there so they didn't have to go through the rigors of the D1 season to get a shot at a D1 title, I believe most of it came from the NCAA trying to uniformly determine championships and become less of a "wild west" with many of its non-revenue sports. Also keeping athletes from skirting D1 eligibility requirements and being able to go to a school with lesser admissions standards to get an opportunity to bypass the D1 standards.

It could be coincidental with Haselrig, who started his career at Lock Haven before going back home to UPJ.

Prior to 1968, the NCAA "University Division" was an open tournament, so anyone at an NCAA school could compete. I haven't read up on everything back then - and lord knows I probably should - but it was more common practice that "College Division" high placers would go, but the guys going 0-1/0-2 wouldn't be, due to expense.

 

[thom67]

Not sure if this is some kind of troll job, but if it is I don't get what you're trolling, so I'll play.

It ended in the early '90s, I believe '92, but won't swear to that. The guy that beat Brinzer his freshman year when he was at OSU was from Portland State which was a DII school (I believe his name was Dan Russell, but I could be way off on that).

Haselrig was a 6X Champion, 3 DII and 3DI. He had nothing to do with the rule change.

Lots of guys made it to the podium (several UNI guys when they were DII) and a few others were Champs. My memory is really foggy on this, but a couple very prominent early '70s Champs were DII and DI. I believe Wade Schalles was one.

Shalles was from Clarion. D1.

 

[JasonBryant]

Shalles was from Clarion. D1.

Schalles won the "College Division" in 1972 and 1973, and the "University Division" those same two years, so determining what "Divisions" were back then, Clarion wasn't "Division I," back then.

Clarion competed in the NAIA from 1966-1970. The school didn't have any postseason All-Americans in 1971, but in 1972, the school would be what's now known as Division II. They competed in the College Division until 1973 when there was a formal split of the three divisions.

Technically, Clarion wrestling became Division I in 1974, Schalles' final year in college. So make of that what you will.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Not sure if this is some kind of troll job, but if it is I don't get what you're trolling, so I'll play.

It ended in the early '90s, I believe '92, but won't swear to that. The guy that beat Brinzer his freshman year when he was at OSU was from Portland State which was a DII school (I believe his name was Dan Russell, but I could be way off on that).

Haselrig was a 6X Champion, 3 DII and 3DI. He had nothing to do with the rule change.

Lots of guys made it to the podium (several UNI guys when they were DII) and a few others were Champs. My memory is really foggy on this, but a couple very prominent early '70s Champs were DII and DI. I believe Wade Schalles was one.

Dan Russell pinned Pat Smith in his first "official" match.

 

[WesternPA]

Not sure if this is some kind of troll job, but if it is I don't get what you're trolling, so I'll play.

It ended in the early '90s, I believe '92, but won't swear to that. The guy that beat Brinzer his freshman year when he was at OSU was from Portland State which was a DII school (I believe his name was Dan Russell, but I could be way off on that).

Haselrig was a 6X Champion, 3 DII and 3DI. He had nothing to do with the rule change.

Lots of guys made it to the podium (several UNI guys when they were DII) and a few others were Champs. My memory is really foggy on this, but a couple very prominent early '70s Champs were DII and DI. I believe Wade Schalles was one.

Lol, you must be paranoid about trolls. Or do you think all PA guys by default are trolls? I, for one, am not.

Regrettably I never wrestled, but I love the sport. You and many others on here forgot more than I will ever know about wrestling. If I ask a question that appears to be overly simplistic or trivial, it's because I dont know the answer or i just want to hear the opinion of informed and insightful wrestling fans.

I thank you for your answer.

Follow up question - do you think Haselrig would have been a 1 seed as a returning champ despite competing at DII level during the season?

The timeframe was from 1974 (the first year there were three pronounced divisions) through 1991, which would have been the last year athletes would have been allowed to compete. If you were a freshman when the opportunity existed, you were grandfathered in. Russell was one of those athletes. He was a sophomore when Haselrig won his final Division I championship. The decision made was during Haselrig's tenure, so those athletes would have a chance to "finish out" the time.

While some feel Haselrig had nothing to do with it, others think the opposite, even terming it the "Haselrig Rule." That's up for discussion as it's a matter of perception.

The NCAA enacted Prop 48 in 1986, which is where much of this MIGHT have originated. I was seven at the time, so I'm only going based on what I can find and have been told over the years. While some say it was D1 coaches bellyaching about D2/D3 guys "hiding out" there so they didn't have to go through the rigors of the D1 season to get a shot at a D1 title, I believe most of it came from the NCAA trying to uniformly determine championships and become less of a "wild west" with many of its non-revenue sports. Also keeping athletes from skirting D1 eligibility requirements and being able to go to a school with lesser admissions standards to get an opportunity to bypass the D1 standards.

It could be coincidental with Haselrig, who started his career at Lock Haven before going back home to UPJ.

Prior to 1968, the NCAA "University Division" was an open tournament, so anyone at an NCAA school could compete. I haven't read up on everything back then - and lord knows I probably should - but it was more common practice that "College Division" high placers would go, but the guys going 0-1/0-2 wouldn't be, due to expense.

Interesting insight, thank you for the reply.

I have a follow up question. It is hard for me to believe that a true DI talent would forgo the prestige of wrestling at say Iowa, and go to a lesser program just to get an easier road to a DI title. By doing so one would necessarily give up access to better training partners and better coaching, no?

 

[WesternPA]

The timeframe was from 1974 (the first year there were three pronounced divisions) through 1991, which would have been the last year athletes would have been allowed to compete. If you were a freshman when the opportunity existed, you were grandfathered in. Russell was one of those athletes. He was a sophomore when Haselrig won his final Division I championship. The decision made was during Haselrig's tenure, so those athletes would have a chance to "finish out" the time.

While some feel Haselrig had nothing to do with it, others think the opposite, even terming it the "Haselrig Rule." That's up for discussion as it's a matter of perception.

The NCAA enacted Prop 48 in 1986, which is where much of this MIGHT have originated. I was seven at the time, so I'm only going based on what I can find and have been told over the years. While some say it was D1 coaches bellyaching about D2/D3 guys "hiding out" there so they didn't have to go through the rigors of the D1 season to get a shot at a D1 title, I believe most of it came from the NCAA trying to uniformly determine championships and become less of a "wild west" with many of its non-revenue sports. Also keeping athletes from skirting D1 eligibility requirements and being able to go to a school with lesser admissions standards to get an opportunity to bypass the D1 standards.

It could be coincidental with Haselrig, who started his career at Lock Haven before going back home to UPJ.

Prior to 1968, the NCAA "University Division" was an open tournament, so anyone at an NCAA school could compete. I haven't read up on everything back then - and lord knows I probably should - but it was more common practice that "College Division" high placers would go, but the guys going 0-1/0-2 wouldn't be, due to expense.

Very insightful response. Thank you.

 

[JasonBryant]

I have a follow up question. It is hard for me to believe that a true DI talent would forgo the prestige of wrestling at say Iowa, and go to a lesser program just to get an easier road to a DI title. By doing so one would necessarily give up access to better training partners and better coaching, no?

Well, D2 wasn't the first stop for Haselrig. It also wasn't the first stop for a number of eventual D1 AA's. In the case of Portland State and SIU Edwardsville, both D2 hammer teams at the time, there was a lot more duals between D1/D2 teams back in the 1980s. SIUE wrestled a number of Big 8 schools regularly. Portland State was hanging with the old Pac 8/Pac 10 for a considerable time before the school's move to D1 crushed the program, to which it never recovered.

The ones who did go non-D1 out of the gate weren't viewed as "true D1 talent" either. I know one of the stories regarding Ken Mallory coming out of the Northeast and landing at Montclair as folks back in New England were like "yeah, he's good, but really?" No one would ever have thought Tervel Dlagnev would have developed the way he did in Division II when he chose Nebraska-Kearney. I think the same can be said of athletes of those eras as well.

Maybe this week I'll break out all the non-D1 "D1" champs since the split in 1974. It's semantics when you go before that because it was "University" and "College" divisions and the systems were mad different.

 

[WesternPA]

Well, D2 wasn't the first stop for Haselrig. It also wasn't the first stop for a number of eventual D1 AA's. In the case of Portland State and SIU Edwardsville, both D2 hammer teams at the time, there was a lot more duals between D1/D2 teams back in the 1980s. SIUE wrestled a number of Big 8 schools regularly. Portland State was hanging with the old Pac 8/Pac 10 for a considerable time before the school's move to D1 crushed the program, to which it never recovered.

The ones who did go non-D1 out of the gate weren't viewed as "true D1 talent" either. I know one of the stories regarding Ken Mallory coming out of the Northeast and landing at Montclair as folks back in New England were like "yeah, he's good, but really?" No one would ever have thought Tervel Dlagnev would have developed the way he did in Division II when he chose Nebraska-Kearney. I think the same can be said of athletes of those eras as well.

Maybe this week I'll break out all the non-D1 "D1" champs since the split in 1974. It's semantics when you go before that because it was "University" and "College" divisions and the systems were mad different.

I'm not sure I'm worthy of replying to you. I take that back, I am sure I'm not worthy!

Seriously, thanks for the replies. I would definitely like to see the non-D1 "D1" list.

 

[WesternPA]

My understanding is the biggest reason was the change in eligibility or how it was measured.

D1 - you are eligible for 5 years to compete in 4.

D2 and D3, there eligibility is measured differently. An individual with 2 D1 years remaining, could sit out each fall semester and be eligible for 4 D3 NCAA tournaments.

If all things were equal, we would probably still see a few competing in the D1 tournament.

Did a DII/III guy necessarily have to be a champion to get in? Or were at-large invites offered?

 

[texas twister]

Didn't the old format have a "if you lost your first match, you are out unless the guy that beat you wins his next match"? This would be back to 92 or earlier.

 

[Tiger158]

Champ, runner-up and five wild cards best I can remember during my career.

 

[bluroptimo]

In 1981 Tom Martucci of Trenton State College won both the DIII and DI National Titles (at 190). I believe he was the last to win DIII and DI titles the same year.

 

[ginormous.headed.circus.midget]

Depends on how far back you go...

Like Minnesota being the only team with 10 All-Americans.

Back in the Day... they only placed 4. And yes, like current international bracketing if you list, that guy had to advance to the finals.
Not totally sure, but I think there was a time when a semi finalist would pull you back in.

Hard to say, but some of the old OSU teams probably would have placed all 10 in the top 8.

They then upped the All-American number up to 6. It was this way until late 70’s or early 80’s.

Around then the upped to the current 8 All-Americans.
The best or worst was, they only gave award medals to the top 6. I believe it was Scott Chenowith from Nebraska who was a two or three tine All American but never a medalist.

Had to be hard on the award stand to hear 8th place All American “Name”, 7th place All American “Name”, 6th place and medalist “Name”.

So Manet changes throw out the years

 

[The catman]

Around 2000 Emmett Wilson won the Hodge. Although he wrestled for UM Northern an NAIA school, he did beat some highly ranked D1 guys. I know there has been a lot of criticism of his selection for the award, but he was as modest and humble of a guy that there ever was and should not be faulted for beating everyone he faced. That year he logged on thousands of miles in the back of that van.

 

[OldDKL]

I was a DIII wrestler that qualified as a wild card for Nationals in Oklahoma City in '85. DIII had 12 potential qualifiers that year. The Champions and two wildcards voted on by the coaches. I say potential qualifiers because there were a couple of guys that qualified based on their DIII tournament results that were ineligible based on some other criteria (academic or # years?) Since I had lost an overtime criteria match in the finals I got a wildcard spot. I am biased but I think it was good for the sport for DII and DIII guy to have a chance to qualify. Back in those days the guy who beat you had to make the Semi finals for you to wrestle back. John Monaco of Montclair state placed 4th at 167. He beat #1 seed Kevin Jackson the first round (6-5) then won two more to make the semi finals. He beat Mike Van Arsdale on the back side and placed 4th. Other DIII guys did well. Nick Milonas (126) from Montclair won a pigtail then two more on the front side of the bracket before losing to Barry Davis then lost R12. Bart Morrow (Ithaca 134) Lost first round 8-7 to 4 seed Al Grammer (SIU- Eds), beat Minotti from Penn State in the wrestlebacks then lost 5-3 to Tim Cochan (TN). Dan Pantaleo Olivet (142) won two matches on the frontside before losing to Kevin Dresser then losing R12 to 7 seed Scott Wiggen (Stanford). Larry Disimone (Trenton 150) won a pig tail then beat CJ Mears (Lehigh) then lost to 7 seed Luke Skove (Ok State). Andy Seras (158 from Albany) was an alternate on the Greco team. Seeded 12, got upset first round by Dave Ewing Iowa State who was unseeded and placed 3rd. At 190 Leland Rogers (St Lawrence) who transferred to Syracuse the next year went 1-1. At HWT Matt Renn (River Falls) went 1-1. I was at 190. I wrestled like crap and got beat 14-2 by Wilbur Wolf of West Virginia (who upset Mike Davies of ASU the next round before losing to Duane Goldman. I had peaked for DIIIs and could barely make it through a workout the next week. I don't think I was ever less prepared physically or mentally for a match. Yes, that is one I wish I would do over. Though overall It was a great experience to be able to qualify and wrestle there. A handful of DII guys also placed that year. What messed it up was some schools (Wartburg) started to drop their academic standards and take guys who couldn't get through the clearing house.

 

[WrestleEveryDay]

Not sure if this is some kind of troll job, but if it is I don't get what you're trolling, so I'll play.

It ended in the early '90s, I believe '92, but won't swear to that. The guy that beat Brinzer his freshman year when he was at OSU was from Portland State which was a DII school (I believe his name was Dan Russell, but I could be way off on that).

Haselrig was a 6X Champion, 3 DII and 3DI. He had nothing to do with the rule change.

Lots of guys made it to the podium (several UNI guys when they were DII) and a few others were Champs. My memory is really foggy on this, but a couple very prominent early '70s Champs were DII and DI. I believe Wade Schalles was one.

Jim Miller was a finalist and 4th placer, at the D1 level, when he was at UNI.

 

[ginormous.headed.circus.midget]

Another thing to remember is that they capped the number of qualifiers to 320.

If they went up to 2 more qualifiers per weight class, then by all means include those D2 and D3 kids that also meet the academic and other eligibility standards,

 

[WesternPA]

I was a DIII wrestler that qualified as a wild card for Nationals in Oklahoma City in '85. DIII had 12 potential qualifiers that year. The Champions and two wildcards voted on by the coaches. I say potential qualifiers because there were a couple of guys that qualified based on their DIII tournament results that were ineligible based on some other criteria (academic or # years?) Since I had lost an overtime criteria match in the finals I got a wildcard spot. I am biased but I think it was good for the sport for DII and DIII guy to have a chance to qualify. Back in those days the guy who beat you had to make the Semi finals for you to wrestle back. John Monaco of Montclair state placed 4th at 167. He beat #1 seed Kevin Jackson the first round (6-5) then won two more to make the semi finals. He beat Mike Van Arsdale on the back side and placed 4th. Other DIII guys did well. Nick Milonas (126) from Montclair won a pigtail then two more on the front side of the bracket before losing to Barry Davis then lost R12. Bart Morrow (Ithaca 134) Lost first round 8-7 to 4 seed Al Grammer (SIU- Eds), beat Minotti from Penn State in the wrestlebacks then lost 5-3 to Tim Cochan (TN). Dan Pantaleo Olivet (142) won two matches on the frontside before losing to Kevin Dresser then losing R12 to 7 seed Scott Wiggen (Stanford). Larry Disimone (Trenton 150) won a pig tail then beat CJ Mears (Lehigh) then lost to 7 seed Luke Skove (Ok State). Andy Seras (158 from Albany) was an alternate on the Greco team. Seeded 12, got upset first round by Dave Ewing Iowa State who was unseeded and placed 3rd. At 190 Leland Rogers (St Lawrence) who transferred to Syracuse the next year went 1-1. At HWT Matt Renn (River Falls) went 1-1. I was at 190. I wrestled like crap and got beat 14-2 by Wilbur Wolf of West Virginia (who upset Mike Davies of ASU the next round before losing to Duane Goldman. I had peaked for DIIIs and could barely make it through a workout the next week. I don't think I was ever less prepared physically or mentally for a match. Yes, that is one I wish I would do over. Though overall It was a great experience to be able to qualify and wrestle there. A handful of DII guys also placed that year. What messed it up was some schools (Wartburg) started to drop their academic standards and take guys who couldn't get through the clearing house.

Must have been a real cool experience just being there, let alone participating.

 

[bman546]

I was a DIII wrestler that qualified as a wild card for Nationals in Oklahoma City in '85.

I remember you and your twin brother wrestling.... he got 5th at DIII that same year. Your DIII team also finished 2nd overall at the DIII Tournament.

 

[IamHawkeye]

Well, D2 wasn't the first stop for Haselrig. It also wasn't the first stop for a number of eventual D1 AA's. In the case of Portland State and SIU Edwardsville, both D2 hammer teams at the time, there was a lot more duals between D1/D2 teams back in the 1980s. SIUE wrestled a number of Big 8 schools regularly. Portland State was hanging with the old Pac 8/Pac 10 for a considerable time before the school's move to D1 crushed the program, to which it never recovered.

The ones who did go non-D1 out of the gate weren't viewed as "true D1 talent" either. I know one of the stories regarding Ken Mallory coming out of the Northeast and landing at Montclair as folks back in New England were like "yeah, he's good, but really?" No one would ever have thought Tervel Dlagnev would have developed the way he did in Division II when he chose Nebraska-Kearney. I think the same can be said of athletes of those eras as well.

Maybe this week I'll break out all the non-D1 "D1" champs since the split in 1974. It's semantics when you go before that because it was "University" and "College" divisions and the systems were mad different.

Haselrig wasn't from SIU-Edwardsville? Also when was 115 lb. dropped.? McCann's weight, I think.