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The race is breaking

I agree with a lot of this, certainly the part on any side claiming there is a landslide coming. As far as early vote, the key to me is just how high the numbers get towards last day to gauge overall turnout, the percentage of women to men (which are last I saw an eye popping near 11 percent more women) and how many non party affiliated / other which are a significant chunk and IMHO going to not break Trumps way.

This is a pretty cool site. For the 21 million plus votes that they have in their system for demographics the women to men and high number of other (almost 25 percent of voters) to me are positive to Democrats

I saw on the late news last night over 41 million votes cast nationwide thus far. In Florida about a third of registered voters have already cast their ballots.
I don’t believe this includes mailed or absentee since many states do not tally those until Election Day.
 
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I’m not doing this with you today Joe. I will leave with this parting point of view and let you have the last word (cause otherwise you will take this conversation into tomorrow):

Biden made US inflation worse than US inflation was before he came in office as a result of increasing money supply. Full stop. I’m voting Harris this cycle and can admit this.
  • Was inflation still going up as a result of Trump - yes.
  • Would Trump have done some similar things - probably, maybe not to the full extent as Biden, but hard to say
  • Did we also have a supply chain crisis causing havoc -yes
  • Did he outperform Europe - yes.
  • Are US prices at least partially set by global market demand - yes, I understand your point, but…
  • Are US prices exclusively set by global market demand - no, a major portion of the inflation number is under our own control. This is the aspect Biden made worse. Global prices have very little to do with many of the goods we buy domestically (eggs, milk are simple examples)
Have a good day.
I tend to agree with most of your points. One other data point worth adding is that wages have outpaced inflation for a nice stretch of time. They have not completely made up for inflation but it is definitely a positive economic development.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...atistics/1351276/wage-growth-vs-inflation-us/
 
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My point is simply this:

There are likely to be more R defections to Harris (as is already well established among several key military leaders and prominent Rs) than there will be D defections to Trump.

The problem with all of this kind of talk is that you guys are basically saying "all of the meteorological evidence suggests its going to be a sunny day today" even though, if you look out the window, you can see the rain coming down.

All of the logic in the world doesn't change the poll numbers, and dismissing them is awfully arbitrary.
 
The problem with all of this kind of talk is that you guys are basically saying "all of the meteorological evidence suggests its going to be a sunny day today" even though, if you look out the window, you can see the rain coming down.

All of the logic in the world doesn't change the poll numbers, and dismissing them is awfully arbitrary.
While I am not as Harris-pessimistic as you Art, some of the dismissiveness feels eerily similar to stuff that came out of the clinton campaign in 2016.
 
While I am not as Harris-pessimistic as you Art, some of the dismissiveness feels eerily similar to stuff that came out of the clinton campaign in 2016.
Not sure why you feel this way. Hillary was not near as active on the campaign trail as Harris. And then the Comey thing 2-3 weeks before the election pretty much crushed her. Now she probably would have lost anyway. Trump lost to Joe Biden for goodness sakes. I'm not sure what makes anyone think that every Democrat that voted for Joe isn't going to vote for Kamala as well like the last election. Now I could certainly be wrong, and of course it's coming down to the same 4-6 swing states but I still think Kamala wins a close one just like Biden did.
 
Not sure why you feel this way. Hillary was not near as active on the campaign trail as Harris. And then the Comey thing 2-3 weeks before the election pretty much crushed her. Now she probably would have lost anyway. Trump lost to Joe Biden for goodness sakes. I'm not sure what makes anyone think that every Democrat that voted for Joe isn't going to vote for Kamala as well like the last election. Now I could certainly be wrong, and of course it's coming down to the same 4-6 swing states but I still think Kamala wins a close one just like Biden did.
I'm not sure that the various things you cite -- all perfectly true -- have much to do with respect to the two candidates' (or their supporters') views of the polls in the home stretch. They were and are what they were/are.
 
No idea what will happen, but obviously I don't think anyone should be counting a victory yet.

I do think the early vote/surge for Republicans, may not hold. I'm frankly shocked at how many Republican voters I've heard say "voting early, so they don't pull any funny business on election day"

This is a complete 180 in attitude from previous votes, where they ONLY wanted to vote on election day.

Vote whenever you want... and take off the tinfoil hats

I don't think you can read anything in terms of victory by the rise in Republican early voting, it's very possible if not likely that they are just converting election day voters to early voters with no net increase to the pool.

However, it does have a couple positive signs for Republicans. First, the "we won't early vote" thing for Republicans was a massive self-own and a handicap. That trend was simply moving their tee further back from the Dems to start. Even if it doesn't mean they're reaching new voters, starting without that handicap is huge in a close race.

Also, there was a LOT of hand wringing my smart Rs about how awful the Republican operations were on the ground at the state level, in terms of GOTV, getting absentee ballots out, etc. All kinds of reports of the ground games being cash broke, ineffective, etc. Early voting returns seem to indicate that either the ground game wasn't as f-cked as reported, or they got it funded and organized in the last weeks, OR it really is a mess and doesn't matter because Republican enthusiasm is overwhelming. If it's the latter, that's almost the best news for Rs.

This race is still a toss up, but my read is that it's clearly broken slightly in Trump's direction in the last week or so. I think that's what Harris' inside numbers are showing, and I think it's very obvious if you watch the Harris campaign. The Harris attempt to appeal to dissatisfied Rs and center-right independents (and men, working class, et seems over and unsuccessful. Polls show that Trump's slight improvement in polls is primarily from solidifying the support of republicans from like 85% to 95%. Kamala tried, but just whiffed with that group.

Those ads are still running, but at the national messaging level, Democrats have totally abandoned positive and persuasive messaging, and pretty much exclusively speaking to the base. They are ramping up the Hitler/fascist talk again, something that is proven unpersuasive to swing voters, and they are browbeating their non-white blocks and accusing them of sexism for not voting Kamala. I think clearly the read that the Harris campaign is getting is that they don't have a working message for the undecided or Trump-sympathetic voter, and they need to max out their base.

And one totally personal observation I haven't seen mentioned. Living in a swing state...the Harris advertising is getting decidedly weird in the last week. Not exclusively weird, but especially in digital ads like one out of 5 or 6 Harris ads are...really bizarre? Like in a "how do they think this is going to help?" kind of way. To me that might signal some "try anything" desperation at play. I don't think they are desperate in terms of being sure they will lose, but desperate that they have not been able to separate at all and are still in a coin flip.
 
She will win states that she's not supposed to win. She goes over 300 electoral votes. Keep the faith.
I don't think she makes that number, but it is interesting to me that the 538 projections show her with more 'high upside' simulations even though overall it is 46-54 against.
 
Anyone who votes for Harris is totally fine with trans people molesting young girls in their locker rooms. tom, is that the game you are playing, making up absurd nonsense and spouting it on a sports forum? You obviously are blessed with a lot of class and common sense. :rolleyes:

So just so I am clear, is this absurd nonsense used for reference?

"Anyone who votes for Harris is totally fine with trans people molesting young girls in their locker rooms"

I'd say this is a very common belief on the MAGA side and is part of the ongoing narrative.
 
I don't think you can read anything in terms of victory by the rise in Republican early voting, it's very possible if not likely that they are just converting election day voters to early voters with no net increase to the pool.

However, it does have a couple positive signs for Republicans. First, the "we won't early vote" thing for Republicans was a massive self-own and a handicap. That trend was simply moving their tee further back from the Dems to start. Even if it doesn't mean they're reaching new voters, starting without that handicap is huge in a close race.

Also, there was a LOT of hand wringing my smart Rs about how awful the Republican operations were on the ground at the state level, in terms of GOTV, getting absentee ballots out, etc. All kinds of reports of the ground games being cash broke, ineffective, etc. Early voting returns seem to indicate that either the ground game wasn't as f-cked as reported, or they got it funded and organized in the last weeks, OR it really is a mess and doesn't matter because Republican enthusiasm is overwhelming. If it's the latter, that's almost the best news for Rs.

This race is still a toss up, but my read is that it's clearly broken slightly in Trump's direction in the last week or so. I think that's what Harris' inside numbers are showing, and I think it's very obvious if you watch the Harris campaign. The Harris attempt to appeal to dissatisfied Rs and center-right independents (and men, working class, et seems over and unsuccessful. Polls show that Trump's slight improvement in polls is primarily from solidifying the support of republicans from like 85% to 95%. Kamala tried, but just whiffed with that group.

Those ads are still running, but at the national messaging level, Democrats have totally abandoned positive and persuasive messaging, and pretty much exclusively speaking to the base. They are ramping up the Hitler/fascist talk again, something that is proven unpersuasive to swing voters, and they are browbeating their non-white blocks and accusing them of sexism for not voting Kamala. I think clearly the read that the Harris campaign is getting is that they don't have a working message for the undecided or Trump-sympathetic voter, and they need to max out their base.

And one totally personal observation I haven't seen mentioned. Living in a swing state...the Harris advertising is getting decidedly weird in the last week. Not exclusively weird, but especially in digital ads like one out of 5 or 6 Harris ads are...really bizarre? Like in a "how do they think this is going to help?" kind of way. To me that might signal some "try anything" desperation at play. I don't think they are desperate in terms of being sure they will lose, but desperate that they have not been able to separate at all and are still in a coin flip.
So you're saying the Trump ads and his rallies are about positive and persuasive messaging? You're really saying that? You did see his speakers and his rally in NYC last night? They brought out every dog whistle available. But sure, Trump is speaking for a "Better America."
 
The problem with all of this kind of talk is that you guys are basically saying "all of the meteorological evidence suggests its going to be a sunny day today" even though, if you look out the window, you can see the rain coming down.

All of the logic in the world doesn't change the poll numbers, and dismissing them is awfully arbitrary.
Poll numbers are incredibly fluid, especially in very very tight races. here is what I do know. I myself am aware of at least 15 republicans (who claim) who are not voting for Trump. Whether not voting or at least 6 voting for Harris. I am not aware of any democrats in my bubble voting for Trump. To not take that into consideration is not looking at the big picture either. In total I am talking about 150 to 200 people.
 
Jimmy Jimmy Jimmy…half this board are trolls. You DO know that, right?
But you should know better. You have 20 years on me. Don't encourage stupid just because you don't liike facts.

Contrary to those that think I'm a flaming lib, I voted for McCain and W.

Trump is a stage 5 cancer. We should be able to agree about that.
 
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But you should no better. You have 20 years on me. Don't encourage stupid just because you don't liike facts.

Contrary to those that think I'm a flaming lib, I voted for McCain and W.

Trump is a stage 5 cancer. We should be able to agree about that.
I didn’t vote for Trump when I showed up last Tuesday to vote early. Don’t imply that I should defend him.
 
Poll numbers are incredibly fluid, especially in very very tight races. here is what I do know. I myself am aware of at least 15 republicans (who claim) who are not voting for Trump. Whether not voting or at least 6 voting for Harris. I am not aware of any democrats in my bubble voting for Trump. To not take that into consideration is not looking at the big picture either. In total I am talking about 150 to 200 people.

90% of the conservatives here on HORT claim they aren't voting for Trump. Yet our demographic on HORT is primarily white males, who support Trump something like 60% to 40%. Your friends are lying.

As for the "bigger picture", I think you might misunderstand that phrase. Your anecdotal evidence is the small picture. Dozens of scientific polls that have polled thousands is the bigger picture. I am afraid you going to be confused and surprised by the results.
 
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I didn’t vote for Trump when I showed up last Tuesday to vote early. Don’t imply that I should defend him.


I'm not implying anything. You have repeatedly said you weren't going to vote for Trump (none of my business), but you seam to cover the shade over #45.

Have some intellectual honesty
 
While I am not as Harris-pessimistic as you Art, some of the dismissiveness feels eerily similar to stuff that came out of the clinton campaign in 2016.

And while I was not as pessimistic in 2016 as I am now, I kept pointing out then that the538's "70% chance of winning" was way too close for comfort. I think a lot of people mistakenly viewed that almost the same as Hillary leading 70% to 30%. And Hillary's polling lead was 3x higher than Harris'.

Hell, in 2020 Biden was leading by 8% in the polls on election eve; but it was still a handful of narrow state wins that put him over the top. How anyone can see a 1.2% lead and feel everything is fine is beyond me. It's not fine.
 
So just so I am clear, is this absurd nonsense used for reference?

"Anyone who votes for Harris is totally fine with trans people molesting young girls in their locker rooms"

I'd say this is a very common belief on the MAGA side and is part of the ongoing narrative.
it’s an unfortunate thing that you may be right - but the larger picture is that the platform of the extreme members of the trans community are not opposed by the Democrats and an unfortunate outcome of that is the few reports of such incidents has been used to an advantage by conservatives.
If adult persons wish to use their personal options about their bodies that’s their choice. They’re all members of the human race.
 
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I'm not implying anything. You have repeatedly said you weren't going to vote for Trump (none of my business), but you seam to cover the shade over #45.

Have some intellectual honesty
What you may have missed is that I’m still a Republican and I am on board with Republican positions on far more things than a common ground that might overlap with Democrats.
The current candidate aside.
 
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And while I was not as pessimistic in 2016 as I am now, I kept pointing out then that the538's "70% chance of winning" was way too close for comfort. I think a lot of people mistakenly viewed that almost the same as Hillary leading 70% to 30%. And Hillary's polling lead was 3x higher than Harris'.

Hell, in 2020 Biden was leading by 8% in the polls on election eve; but it was still a handful of narrow state wins that put him over the top. How anyone can see a 1.2% lead and feel everything is fine is beyond me. It's not fine.
Who's actually saying that? NY Times ( I know, I know, totally unreliable to the Repubs) has Harris up in 5 of the so called 9 swing states, which they include Ohio, which in my opinion is not a swing state as it has Trump up 6%. PA, Nevada, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Minnesota all leaning Harris, obviously Minnesota pretty big but only 1% in all the others. Trump up 1% in GA and NC and up 2% in AZ and of course 6% Ohio. We all know 1% is incredibly small from either side. I don't feel great about it but I just don't see any reason the states they have her leading in would change from the last election. Again, it's going to be incredibly close. Now what that says about our country floors me.
 
90% of the conservatives here on HORT claim they aren't voting for Trump. Yet our demographic on HORT is primarily white males, who support Trump something like 60% to 40%. Your friends are lying.

As for the "bigger picture", I think you might misunderstand that phrase. Your anecdotal evidence is the small picture. Dozens of scientific polls that have polled thousands is the bigger picture. I am afraid you going to be confused and surprised by the results.
You are a moron, its friends, clients and relatives. There are 6-8 females voting for Harris on abortion rights that are republicans, a few fairly strong. Then you have around 6 highly successful individuals that are clients, that believe Trump wants an autocracy, and that Jan. 6th negated any future claims he had to being president. I am in a demography that is 80% plus republican. Now is my network anecdotal and not representative? Maybe, even still, of those I discussed above, all voted for Trump last election except for 2. To me, that is a significant change, even if it is a small sample. If you look at most polls they don't get more than 1000 individuals but extrapolate it out. So what does this tell me, Iowa will still go to Trump but be much closer than last election. I also believe the election will trend to Harris as this goes on.
 
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I don't think you can read anything in terms of victory by the rise in Republican early voting, it's very possible if not likely that they are just converting election day voters to early voters with no net increase to the pool.

However, it does have a couple positive signs for Republicans. First, the "we won't early vote" thing for Republicans was a massive self-own and a handicap. That trend was simply moving their tee further back from the Dems to start. Even if it doesn't mean they're reaching new voters, starting without that handicap is huge in a close race.

Also, there was a LOT of hand wringing my smart Rs about how awful the Republican operations were on the ground at the state level, in terms of GOTV, getting absentee ballots out, etc. All kinds of reports of the ground games being cash broke, ineffective, etc. Early voting returns seem to indicate that either the ground game wasn't as f-cked as reported, or they got it funded and organized in the last weeks, OR it really is a mess and doesn't matter because Republican enthusiasm is overwhelming. If it's the latter, that's almost the best news for Rs.

This race is still a toss up, but my read is that it's clearly broken slightly in Trump's direction in the last week or so. I think that's what Harris' inside numbers are showing, and I think it's very obvious if you watch the Harris campaign. The Harris attempt to appeal to dissatisfied Rs and center-right independents (and men, working class, et seems over and unsuccessful. Polls show that Trump's slight improvement in polls is primarily from solidifying the support of republicans from like 85% to 95%. Kamala tried, but just whiffed with that group.

Those ads are still running, but at the national messaging level, Democrats have totally abandoned positive and persuasive messaging, and pretty much exclusively speaking to the base. They are ramping up the Hitler/fascist talk again, something that is proven unpersuasive to swing voters, and they are browbeating their non-white blocks and accusing them of sexism for not voting Kamala. I think clearly the read that the Harris campaign is getting is that they don't have a working message for the undecided or Trump-sympathetic voter, and they need to max out their base.

And one totally personal observation I haven't seen mentioned. Living in a swing state...the Harris advertising is getting decidedly weird in the last week. Not exclusively weird, but especially in digital ads like one out of 5 or 6 Harris ads are...really bizarre? Like in a "how do they think this is going to help?" kind of way. To me that might signal some "try anything" desperation at play. I don't think they are desperate in terms of being sure they will lose, but desperate that they have not been able to separate at all and are still in a coin flip.
A friend of mine works for a county and says the number of early voters lean R which is opposite the past several races he's been involved with. He wonders if we are just seeing the same R voters coming out early this time due to a change in strategy while Ds are waiting... or will less Ds come out to vote due to lack of enthusiasm. Interesting to see how it all plays out.
 
I don't think you can read anything in terms of victory by the rise in Republican early voting, it's very possible if not likely that they are just converting election day voters to early voters with no net increase to the pool.

However, it does have a couple positive signs for Republicans. First, the "we won't early vote" thing for Republicans was a massive self-own and a handicap. That trend was simply moving their tee further back from the Dems to start. Even if it doesn't mean they're reaching new voters, starting without that handicap is huge in a close race.

Also, there was a LOT of hand wringing my smart Rs about how awful the Republican operations were on the ground at the state level, in terms of GOTV, getting absentee ballots out, etc. All kinds of reports of the ground games being cash broke, ineffective, etc. Early voting returns seem to indicate that either the ground game wasn't as f-cked as reported, or they got it funded and organized in the last weeks, OR it really is a mess and doesn't matter because Republican enthusiasm is overwhelming. If it's the latter, that's almost the best news for Rs.

This race is still a toss up, but my read is that it's clearly broken slightly in Trump's direction in the last week or so. I think that's what Harris' inside numbers are showing, and I think it's very obvious if you watch the Harris campaign. The Harris attempt to appeal to dissatisfied Rs and center-right independents (and men, working class, et seems over and unsuccessful. Polls show that Trump's slight improvement in polls is primarily from solidifying the support of republicans from like 85% to 95%. Kamala tried, but just whiffed with that group.

Those ads are still running, but at the national messaging level, Democrats have totally abandoned positive and persuasive messaging, and pretty much exclusively speaking to the base. They are ramping up the Hitler/fascist talk again, something that is proven unpersuasive to swing voters, and they are browbeating their non-white blocks and accusing them of sexism for not voting Kamala. I think clearly the read that the Harris campaign is getting is that they don't have a working message for the undecided or Trump-sympathetic voter, and they need to max out their base.

And one totally personal observation I haven't seen mentioned. Living in a swing state...the Harris advertising is getting decidedly weird in the last week. Not exclusively weird, but especially in digital ads like one out of 5 or 6 Harris ads are...really bizarre? Like in a "how do they think this is going to help?" kind of way. To me that might signal some "try anything" desperation at play. I don't think they are desperate in terms of being sure they will lose, but desperate that they have not been able to separate at all and are still in a coin flip.
Things have clearly broken for Harris. Two things Trump didn't want to see happen going into things. One, massive turnout. And two, women dominating men in voting. Well both have happened. That's really bad news for Trump.
 
it’s an unfortunate thing that you may be right - but the larger picture is that the platform of the extreme members of the trans community are not opposed by the Democrats and an unfortunate outcome of that is the few reports of such incidents has been used to an advantage by conservatives.
If adult persons wish to use their personal options about their bodies that’s their choice. They’re all members of the human race.

Trans people have been assaulted in bathrooms. Imaging being a trans girl using the men's room.

I think trans men using the women's room would generally alarm women/girls using that same bathroom.

"Hang on, gotta stop by the girl's room"


Buck-11_-718x1024.jpg
 
The problem with all of this kind of talk is that you guys are basically saying "all of the meteorological evidence suggests its going to be a sunny day today" even though, if you look out the window, you can see the rain coming down.

All of the logic in the world doesn't change the poll numbers, and dismissing them is awfully arbitrary.


Remember talking about this two months ago?

Harris super PAC founder says public polls are too optimistic​

By Jarrett Renshaw and Trevor Hunnicutt
August 19, 2024

CHICAGO, Aug 19 (Reuters) - The founder of the main outside spending group backing Kamala Harris' presidential bid says their own opinion polling is less "rosy" than public polls suggest and warned that Democrats face much closer races in key states.
Chauncey McLean, president of Future Forward, a super political action committee, or super PAC, that has raised hundreds of millions of dollars to back Harris in the Nov. 5 election, spoke on Monday during an event hosted by the University of Chicago Institute of Politics.
"Our numbers are much less rosy than what you're seeing in the public," said McLean, who rarely talks publicly.
...
Future Forward has created a massive polling operation that created and tested some 500 digital and television ads for Biden and some 200 for Harris. They have talked to some 375,000 Americans in the weeks after Harris became the presumptive Democratic nominee on July 22.
 
90% of the conservatives here on HORT claim they aren't voting for Trump. Yet our demographic on HORT is primarily white males, who support Trump something like 60% to 40%. Your friends are lying.

As for the "bigger picture", I think you might misunderstand that phrase. Your anecdotal evidence is the small picture. Dozens of scientific polls that have polled thousands is the bigger picture. I am afraid you going to be confused and surprised by the results.
Harris will take 10% of Republican voters. Early voting data suggest this has already happened.
 
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