The Standpoint Podcast with JBO

[hawkedoff]

It's a spot on comparison.

The PCL was founded on an idea that there should be an opportunity for basketball players aged 18-22 to have a choice. Either pursue the "traditional" route (NCAA model) or pursue a "new" route (the PCL). Simple economic theory tells us that markets abhor vacuums and, where there is a demand, the market will react.

College basketball players believe that there is a demand to watch their talents on the basketball courts; they believe that they are the engine that drives the NCAA machine.
I'm skeptical that their contention is the correct one. I've always thought that the fact that a team wears "Iowa," "Iowa State," "Wisconsin," etc. on the jerseys is what drives demand. I'm skeptical that if the rosters on Iowa State and Iowa played a game in Cedar Falls and the teams were the Ames Arrows versus the Iowa City Cannons that you'd draw more than 250 people to watch those players. Put them in Cyclones and Hawkeyes garb and have them play in CHA or Hilton and you'll get 13,000+ screaming fans. Why? What's the difference?

Having an opinion is not the equivalent of being "invested." Spending my time knocking on doors, encouraging people to vote for a particular candidate is being "invested." Volunteering my time to make phone calls for a particular candidate is being "invested." Volunteering my time at the local food panty is being "invested." Posting a reaction to another person's post hardly qualifies as being "invested." There is about a zero chance that what I write here will change anything. I'm not lobbying. I'm not in a position of authority. I'm voicing an opinion.

The PCL will be an interesting case study. I like the way that it is structured. I think that its goals are extremely well-intentioned. I just happen to believe that the underlying premise is flawed. I don't think that these players are as individually marketable as they perceive themselves to be. Michael Jordan didn't need the Bulls to market himself. LeBron James didn't need the Cavaliers, Heat or Lakers to market himself. They are marketable because of their phenomenal talent.

Lindell Wigginton was one hell of a basketball player for Iowa State. He is now on the roster of the Iowa Wolves. I don't recall seeing one television commercial, one commercial radio spot or a billboard featuring Wigginton as a member of the Iowa Wolves. How marketable is he?

No one is forcing these players to play for a college or university. It is not indentured servitude. They can leave the team at any time. Granted, they may lose phenomenal health care, first class meal plans, access to first-class training center, cost of living payments, no tuition costs, tutoring, etc. - but that is a choice that they can make on a daily basis. If they don't like the "deal," there is nothing forcing them to stick with the team.

Do I begrudge those D-1 athletes who desire change? Nope. I'd expect anyone in their situation to try to improve their stock in life. But, just because someone is a player on a team for which I root, it doesn't necessarily follow that I have to agree with his/her perspective.

No it really isn't a good comparison at all. Try starting a small grocery store and competing with a Hy Vee a block away. You will be out of business really quickly. A start up of any sort will almost certainly go out of business especially when the marketplace is already saturated and customers don't see the need to change. The NCAA has a monopoly on this type of market and they most certainly are not going to share the space willingly. It is a doomed league and I think you know it. Holding it up as some sort of example that these athletes aren't marketable is dishonest in a deliberate manner.

Once again why should Fran make millions upon millions of dollars while the student athletes make store credit? You know that is what factories used to do right? Issue their own currency ad payment that could only be used in the company store? The prices of course were jacked up.

If this is about the student athlete and running a nonprofit (that's the message after all right????) why the angst about paying the labor more money? Not enough to go around as we pay coaches more than we pay surgeons? As we put up 90m in renovations to a stadium that doesn't need it we really claim we can't afford to give students more money?

How about this? Cap salaries on all coaches, athletics directors, and anyone else associated with athletics. Cap the amount that can be spent on any new construction or renovation in athletics. Do it across the board at all NCAA institutions. Any money generated above the cap goes to the schools general scholarship fund. Deal?

 

[hawkedoff]

This is pretty well said and pretty much lines up with my opinion. I would also add that the entire NCAA model evolved around federal gender equity law that took away many of the free market forces within intercollegiate athletics. So as long as universities are going to have to fund non-revenue sports then there’s going to be an issue playing paying the players that generate revenue.

I really have no issues with college players capitalizing on their name image or likeness. People just need to take time to understand why the model exists in its current iteration.

There is no such thing as a nonrevenue sport.

 

[hawkedoff]

This is a pretty good article addressing why nonrevenue sports is a ridiculous way to evaluate sports that aren't basketball and football

Maybe Colleges Should Be Adding Sports, Not Dropping Them

Tuition paid by non-scholarship athletes in sports that schools are dropping actually turns out to be net profitable for colleges.

www.sportico.com

 

[24 so far]

How am I telling you how to live your life? I really do not care how you live your life. My only request is that you respect others and their choices while doing it. This is not utopia and I think it is pretty sad that you think so.

That sums up what I was saying. You're telling me how I should react ( MY as in YOU, only request....). And it's been my experience that the folks that do that, are excellent at not taking their own advice. They even created a word for it. Hypocrite. ( been guilty of it myself I'm sure, I try not to be however)

So while I may agree with portions of your premise, and I assure you I do, the world would be a much better place if everyone were nice to each other. However, I consider myself a realist, as in we make Prisons for a reason. Good day.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

This is a pretty good article addressing why nonrevenue sports is a ridiculous way to evaluate sports that aren't basketball and football

Maybe Colleges Should Be Adding Sports, Not Dropping Them

Tuition paid by non-scholarship athletes in sports that schools are dropping actually turns out to be net profitable for colleges.

www.sportico.com

Athletics are a separate enterprise with their own budget at most schools. I have long argued that they should get credit for the marketing and exposure they bring to the universities.

 

[mooresville hawk]

That sums up what I was saying. You're telling me how I should react ( MY as in YOU, only request....). And it's been my experience that the folks that do that, are excellent at not taking their own advice. They even created a word for it. Hypocrite.

So while I may agree with portions of your premise, and I assure you I do, the world would be a much better place if everyone were nice to each other. However, I consider myself a realist, as in we make Prisons for a reason. Good day.

I can admit that I do not always follow this advice, though I am trying. Good day to you as well.

 

[CO_hawk]

No it really isn't a good comparison at all. Try starting a small grocery store and competing with a Hy Vee a block away. You will be out of business really quickly. A start up of any sort will almost certainly go out of business especially when the marketplace is already saturated and customers don't see the need to change. The NCAA has a monopoly on this type of market and they most certainly are not going to share the space willingly. It is a doomed league and I think you know it. Holding it up as some sort of example that these athletes aren't marketable is dishonest in a deliberate manner.

Once again why should Fran make millions upon millions of dollars while the student athletes make store credit? You know that is what factories used to do right? Issue their own currency ad payment that could only be used in the company store? The prices of course were jacked up.

If this is about the student athlete and running a nonprofit (that's the message after all right????) why the angst about paying the labor more money? Not enough to go around as we pay coaches more than we pay surgeons? As we put up 90m in renovations to a stadium that doesn't need it we really claim we can't afford to give students more money?

How about this? Cap salaries on all coaches, athletics directors, and anyone else associated with athletics. Cap the amount that can be spent on any new construction or renovation in athletics. Do it across the board at all NCAA institutions. Any money generated above the cap goes to the schools general scholarship fund. Deal?

I think we should pay highschoolers too.

 

[hawkedoff]

I think we should pay highschoolers too.

Ok. How much money does their league generate?

Where else do we deny people the ability to make money based in their ability? Should a kid that knows how to code really well not be able to cash in on that ability?

 

[hawkedoff]

Athletics are a separate enterprise with their own budget at most schools. I have long argued that they should get credit for the marketing and exposure they bring to the universities.

And vice versa.

 

[unoHawkeye]

50 hour weeks? Loololol

Those were the findings of an actual study, and I believe was specific to in-season. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary that this doesn’t occur

 

[24 so far]

Those were the findings of an actual study, and I believe was specific to in-season. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary that this doesn’t occur

I love studies! (sarcasm alert) I recall several years back where some scholars in England conducted an exhaustive study ( don't recall the wasted dollar figure ).

Their conclusion of said study: Men like Women and Beer. Who knew?

Sorry, carry on.

 

[TomKakert]

I’ve never said it’s all Iowa fans, that is completely made up. And you think a bunch of Twitter handles with the syntax Abcd0123456789 with no followers are iowa fans? Lol, ok then. That’s your right.

It really comes down to how much you care about what other people think about you, particularly random people on social media who just trying to be negative. Obviously you and Jordan both fall into the group labeled “a bunch”.

Social media participation is a choice. It’s unfortunate that it is so negative, but that is the way it is, and avoiding it is an option.

No, but you routinely dismiss stuff that happens to athletes on social media when fans are asshats as they are trolls or ISU fans or whatever. That's a fact.

Yes, social media is a choice and it is negative, but you can either be part of the solution or do what you do, which is essentially say none of the stuff is real because that is your initial reaction each and every time.

 

[unoHawkeye]

I love studies! (sarcasm alert) I recall several years back where some scholars in England conducted an exhaustive study ( don't recall the wasted dollar figure ).

Their conclusion of said study: Men like Women and Beer. Who knew?

Sorry, carry on.

Sounds like a legit study to me!

As does mine where student athletes were actually asked about their schedules. It’s not like this is second hand information

 

[WSC72]

I love studies! (sarcasm alert) I recall several years back where some scholars in England conducted an exhaustive study ( don't recall the wasted dollar figure ).

Their conclusion of said study: Men like Women and Beer. Who knew?

Sorry, carry on.

Sounds like a legit study to me!

As does mine where student athletes were actually asked about their schedules. It’s not like this is second hand information

Did they count travel time, time on the road, etc? If so I could believe it especially for BB. If not I would really find it hard to believe.

Did not read the link/study. What were the questions? How were they phrased?

 

[unoHawkeye]

Did they count travel time, time on the road, etc? If so I could believe it especially for BB. If not I would really find it hard to believe.

Did not read the link/study. What were the questions? How were they phrased?

Yes they did include travel time. So NCAA rules stipulate that athletes are only allowed to spend 20 hours on their sports per week, but there’s an additional 29 hours being spent between travel, medical treatment, and “voluntary” (they aren’t) practices

Admittedly, the surveys/questions asked to students were never released, only the findings. However it was conducted by a global research company/third party. Here is a link to the findings report upon which the article I posted earlier was based: https://sports.cbsimg.net/images/Pac-12-Student-Athlete-Time-Demands-Obtained-by-CBS-Sports.pdf

 

[24 so far]

Sounds like a legit study to me!

As does mine where student athletes were actually asked about their schedules. It’s not like this is second hand information

I didn't read your Study, no offense intended. I find the large majority of "studies" have a severe agenda driven perspective versus fact based findings.

So I take them with a huge grain of salt. Similar to those blocks of salt for Cattle or other large species!

 

[AuroraHawk]

It is a doomed league and I think you know it.

Why is it a doomed league?

 

[unoHawkeye]

I didn't read your Study, no offense intended. I find the large majority of "studies" have a severe agenda driven perspective versus fact based findings.

So I take them with a huge grain of salt. Similar to those blocks of salt for Cattle or other large species!

None taken, and I agree that many studies are loaded with confirmation bias!

 

[hawkedoff]

Why is it a doomed league?

Like I said they are competing in the same marketplace with the known and well established brand of the NCAA and all those television contracts. This league is not going to be able to establish any sort of footprint that pulls anything from the NCAA. If a guy that age is good enough they will go to the nba. That doesn't mean that the billions of dollars generated by the NCAA shouldn't be shared more equitably with the athletes though

The thing is this is going to happen it's just a matter of when and how much. No way anyone reasonable can argue that athletic coaches should make as much as they make or that the resources being pushed into the arms race of facilities shouldn't go towards the athletes playing the game.

Covid has hit the reset button to a degree and people are now paying attention more.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Not BS: https://www.cbssports.com/college-f...-athletes-too-exhausted-to-study-effectively/

How many students did you know while you were in college that were working that many hours? When I was in college, most students worked about half of that, and were receiving their education so that they could work full time AFTER graduation

I worked third shift after I stopped playing football.
football was easier.

 

[HawkLogic]

No it really isn't a good comparison at all. Try starting a small grocery store and competing with a Hy Vee a block away. You will be out of business really quickly. A start up of any sort will almost certainly go out of business especially when the marketplace is already saturated and customers don't see the need to change. The NCAA has a monopoly on this type of market and they most certainly are not going to share the space willingly. It is a doomed league and I think you know it. Holding it up as some sort of example that these athletes aren't marketable is dishonest in a deliberate manner.

Once again why should Fran make millions upon millions of dollars while the student athletes make store credit? You know that is what factories used to do right? Issue their own currency ad payment that could only be used in the company store? The prices of course were jacked up.

If this is about the student athlete and running a nonprofit (that's the message after all right????) why the angst about paying the labor more money? Not enough to go around as we pay coaches more than we pay surgeons? As we put up 90m in renovations to a stadium that doesn't need it we really claim we can't afford to give students more money?

How about this? Cap salaries on all coaches, athletics directors, and anyone else associated with athletics. Cap the amount that can be spent on any new construction or renovation in athletics. Do it across the board at all NCAA institutions. Any money generated above the cap goes to the schools general scholarship fund. Deal?

I think salary Caps based on money sport revenue for Coaches and the ancillary ncaa/big10 bureaucrats makes sense. Fran, Calipari, Ferentz, Saban..they are not doing anything unethical grabbing as much money as they can. However, the amount of money they make is obscene considering they are recruiting inner city kids that live in relative poverty and profiting off young people that are not getting paid for working extra hard in their craft and risking serious injury.

The system is rigged in the favor of the current winners (coaches, bureaucrats in NCAA system) and they largely control the reform of the system. Hard to imagine them giving up their share of the pot willingly. The other option is to get rid of Title9 and quit diverting men's money sport revenues to support women's sports that most people don't want to pay to see, but that would never fly politically. Only other choice---raise ticket prices and TV rights.

 

[CO_hawk]

Ok. How much money does their league generate?

Where else do we deny people the ability to make money based in their ability? Should a kid that knows how to code really well not be able to cash in on that ability?

Yes he should get a job after they are done with training.

 

[CO_hawk]

Ok. How much money does their league generate?

Where else do we deny people the ability to make money based in their ability? Should a kid that knows how to code really well not be able to cash in on that ability?

Alot https://www.cnbc.com/id/100001024


For instance, a $60 million state-of-the-art high school football stadium that seats 18,000 – the money approved by voters in a local referendum - opened this past summer in Allen, Texas. Meanwhile, shoe company New Balance paid $500,000 last year to help refurbish an existing high school football stadium in Gloucester, Mass., as well as getting the stadium's naming rights.

Similar high school stadium naming deals with local businesses have been made across the U.S., including in Lakewood, Ohio ($320,000) and Noblesville, Indiana ($575,000).

Broadcasting rights and money are also expanding. Last summer, the New York City public school system negotiated a two-year, $500,000 contract with the MSG Varsity Network — a Cablevision network — to broadcast all types of high school athletic events.* And the California Interscholastic Federation just signed a 15-year deal with Time Warner Cable to broadcast high school football playoff games, for $8.5 million.

 

[hawkedoff]

Alot https://www.cnbc.com/id/100001024


For instance, a $60 million state-of-the-art high school football stadium that seats 18,000 – the money approved by voters in a local referendum - opened this past summer in Allen, Texas. Meanwhile, shoe company New Balance paid $500,000 last year to help refurbish an existing high school football stadium in Gloucester, Mass., as well as getting the stadium's naming rights.

Similar high school stadium naming deals with local businesses have been made across the U.S., including in Lakewood, Ohio ($320,000) and Noblesville, Indiana ($575,000).

Broadcasting rights and money are also expanding. Last summer, the New York City public school system negotiated a two-year, $500,000 contract with the MSG Varsity Network — a Cablevision network — to broadcast all types of high school athletic events.* And the California Interscholastic Federation just signed a 15-year deal with Time Warner Cable to broadcast high school football playoff games, for $8.5 million.

If adults are making money off of kids efforts the kids should get paid as well.

By the way building a stadium with tax dollars isn't the same thing and so think you know it

 

[hawkedoff]

Yes he should get a job after they are done with training.

Good lord are you truly this bitter in real life? He has a job right now? Hasn't your ilk called his scholarship income? He should just be grateful for what he is getting right? Right

 

[CO_hawk]

Good lord are you truly this bitter in real life? He has a job right now? Hasn't your ilk called his scholarship income? He should just be grateful for what he is getting right? Right

Educating yourself at a public institution is not a job.

 

[CO_hawk]

If adults are making money off of kids efforts the kids should get paid as well.

By the way building a stadium with tax dollars isn't the same thing and so think you know it

What about the 8.5 million dollar TV contract California schools have?
Its apparent you didn't read the article...

 

[hawkedoff]

What about the 8.5 million dollar TV contract California schools have?
Its apparent you didn't read the article...

Then absolutely students should get some of that money. Why wouldn't they?

 

[hawkedoff]

Educating yourself at a public institution is not a job.

Is working on the basketball team a job?

 

[CO_hawk]

Is working on the basketball team a job?

Coaching yea. Playing no.
Is it a job in high school? No
Is it a job playing at the YMCA? No
Is it a job playing professionally? Yes.
Is it a job playing at a college? No
Can you play professionally after high school? Yes
Can you further your education after high school? Yes

 

[CO_hawk]

Then absolutely students should get some of that money. Why wouldn't they?

They don't, which is why Im wondering why you are not at the state capital protesting for high school athletes to get paid.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

No, but you routinely dismiss stuff that happens to athletes on social media when fans are asshats as they are trolls or ISU fans or whatever. That's a fact.

Yes, social media is a choice and it is negative, but you can either be part of the solution or do what you do, which is essentially say none of the stuff is real because that is your initial reaction each and every time.

There are a lot of things for which I can be criticized. This is not one of them. You are making stuff up.

There are literally hundreds of supportive tweets towards Joe and a handful a negative ones. Bringing more attention to the negative is letting the assholes win. Who gives a shit if they are in the wrong? They sure don’t. What’s the point?

But, a lot of people really get a rush out of pointing out stupid shit on social media, regardless of the source. Hey everyone, look at how non-crazy and virtuous I am!! Let’s give the trolls more pub!!

Also, there are more people betting on games every day. There are a ton of people cheering for iowa that aren’t iowa fans.

 

[hawkedoff]

Coaching yea. Playing no.
Is it a job in high school? No
Is it a job playing at the YMCA? No
Is it a job playing professionally? Yes.
Is it a job playing at a college? No
Can you play professionally after high school? Yes
Can you further your education after high school? Yes

And what is the difference if you nice little list there? You could technically get paid at at any point along that continuum I'd someone is willing to pay you. Is there revenue being generated? Then why wouldn't the people get paid?

The truth is you have zero argument at all against someone getting paid for their abilities. The NCAA had a nice thing going for bit when the schools were more or less breaking even on their endeavors and coaches weren't being turned into millionaires even when they haven't ever been a head coach. Then billions upon billions of dollars flooded the market and the landscape has changed.

Turns out the status of amateur was invented so that the NCAA didn't have to pay workman's comp when an athlete got injured. The head of the NCAA that came up with the term student athlete said that was the reason he did it in a book he wrote.

You sure seem to like to know exploit labor don't you? You sound like a used car salesman.

 

[hawkedoff]

They don't, which is why Im wondering why you are not at the state capital protesting for high school athletes to get paid.

You brought one tv contract from New York to the table and ask why I'm not at the state capitol protesting? Weird flex dude.

The athletes are flexing. They are the ones that will force this change and it is coming. There is no stopping it

 

[CO_hawk]

You brought one tv contract from New York to the table and ask why I'm not at the state capitol protesting? Weird flex dude.

The athletes are flexing. They are the ones that will force this change and it is coming. There is no stopping it

Again you didn't read the article. New York, Massachusetts, California, Texas and Florida are already there.
You gotta try harder than this or I will bury you.

 

[TomKakert]

There are a lot of things for which I can be criticized. This is not one of them. You are making stuff up.

There are literally hundreds of supportive tweets towards Joe and a handful a negative ones. Bringing more attention to the negative is letting the assholes win. Who gives a shit if they are in the wrong? They sure don’t. What’s the point?

But, a lot of people really get a rush out of pointing out stupid shit on social media, regardless of the source. Hey everyone, look at how non-crazy and virtuous I am!! Let’s give the trolls more pub!!

Also, there are more people betting on games every day. There are a ton of people cheering for iowa that aren’t iowa fans.

And I'm not making it up. Your response on this stuff is always default to, well, they could be trolls or ISU fans or now apparently, gamblers. Basically offering an excuse for the nonsense.

I never mentioned anyone specifically, so that's your own projection on a specific player. The point is that instead of excusing it and implying that well, they might not be Iowa fans, which you have done repeatedly and did so in this response, simply say it's not something that should be encouraged or ignored or excused.

And Jordan and I are in agreement. I think it's a small slice of the entire fanbase. I've said it many times. JBo said the same thing the other day. Most fans are good. But, it's the vocal minority that cause the problems and saying, well they are probably trolls, isn't the way to treat it. When there's a loud obnoxious drunk guy at the end of the bar, you tell them to quiet down and be more respectful or you ask them to leave.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

And I'm not making it up. Your response on this stuff is always default to, well, they could be trolls or ISU fans or now apparently, gamblers. Basically offering an excuse for the nonsense.

I never mentioned anyone specifically, so that's your own projection on a specific player. The point is that instead of excusing it and implying that well, they might not be Iowa fans, which you have done repeatedly and did so in this response, simply say it's not something that should be encouraged or ignored or excused.

And Jordan and I are in agreement. I think it's a small slice of the entire fanbase. I've said it many times. JBo said the same thing the other day. Most fans are good. But, it's the vocal minority that cause the problems and saying, well they are probably trolls, isn't the way to treat it. When there's a loud obnoxious drunk guy at the end of the bar, you tell them to quiet down and be more respectful or you ask them to leave.

Well, I am in agreement with this as well, but you apparently refuse to acknowledge that. This is the weirdest damn hill to die on for you. Dumber than getting offended by a social media bot.

If you want to benefit from all that comes with being a public figure that you need to also be able to handle to downside. You can blame people for being on social media, give them more attention, and hope they stop, or you can simply ignore them. This really isn’t a new concept.

Meanwhile, since it’s very easy to see exactly what was publicly tweeted at a specific handle, I hope all these Iowa fans straighten out. They are making our fan base look bad! Especially Adolf.

 

[CO_hawk]

Internet negativity will never go away. It is here to stay.
Some Iowa beat writer lost his job recently after letting random internet trolling get to him.

 

[TomKakert]

Well, I am in agreement with this as well, but you apparently refuse to acknowledge that. This is the weirdest damn hill to die on for you. Dumber than getting offended by a social media bot.

If you want to benefit from all that comes with being a public figure that you need to also be able to handle to downside. You can blame people for being on social media, give them more attention, and hope they stop, or you can simply ignore them. This really isn’t a new concept.

Meanwhile, since it’s very easy to see exactly what was publicly tweeted at a specific handle, I hope all these Iowa fans straighten out. They are making our fan base look bad! Especially Adolf.

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What hill am I dying on? The one pointing out that you regularly excuse this stuff and essentially blame the players because they are famous so they should just deal with it? Really? The fact is it's not just the players, it's their families that see this crap and frankly that's even worse for parents than for the athletes. But, hey, they play ball in college, so they are famous so deal with it or get out, right? Next man in. Or you guys just have zero social media in college because people can't act like civilized human beings.

Or the novel concept that people actually behave like decent human beings and when they don't you point out that its not respectful behavior.

 

[Hawks2424]

How am I telling you how to live your life? I really do not care how you live your life. My only request is that you respect others and their choices while doing it. This is not utopia and I think it is pretty sad that you think so.

Respect others? You mean force your belief about masks

Alot https://www.cnbc.com/id/100001024


For instance, a $60 million state-of-the-art high school football stadium that seats 18,000 – the money approved by voters in a local referendum - opened this past summer in Allen, Texas. Meanwhile, shoe company New Balance paid $500,000 last year to help refurbish an existing high school football stadium in Gloucester, Mass., as well as getting the stadium's naming rights.

Similar high school stadium naming deals with local businesses have been made across the U.S., including in Lakewood, Ohio ($320,000) and Noblesville, Indiana ($575,000).

Broadcasting rights and money are also expanding. Last summer, the New York City public school system negotiated a two-year, $500,000 contract with the MSG Varsity Network — a Cablevision network — to broadcast all types of high school athletic events.* And the California Interscholastic Federation just signed a 15-year deal with Time Warner Cable to broadcast high school football playoff games, for $8.5 million.

college players have other avenues to become pro players. They don’t have to go to college.