The fact that he put his boi in charge of the US, who pushed to dissolve NATO and back the US out of it.
This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...
- Thread starter Nole Lou
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When did he push dissolving nato?
He wanted everyone to pay the same share.
America taxpayer first kind of thing.
It’s quite frightening how close we are to becoming an authoritarian government run by people who will absolute ignore the constitution and fight to hold onto this power if it is given and aligned with our greatest enemy for 80 years now, Russia. Truly,
We now have 35 percent of this country an unhinged and fearful, brainwashed cult. And I still have no clue how they have done so for someone so obviously weak, scared, dumb, ugly, unchristian, uncharming and illiterate. It is almost super natural antichrist type chit.
Didn't Putin say he wouldn't invade?
Explain how you see it turning into WW3.
Why is it so hard for the fear mongers to make their case?
Putin gets to dictate terms of our alliances? He can invade any sovereign country if he threatens nukes? Fact of that matter is we were slow incorporate Ukraine in NATO, if they were already a member Putin wouldn’t have invaded. It’s amazing to me how people justify backing down from a bully.
You're right, it's not like the same thing hasn't happened fvcking all throughout history
Because MAGA are pussies, like their cult leader
Ukraine was not going to enter NATO. The main point of keeping them out was to prevent more Russian aggression. We all see how well that worked out.
"Certainly Russia won't...."
"It isn't like...."
"Are you saying...?"
When did public discourse become snidely disingenuous like this instead of clearly saying or asking what we really mean?
It's reasonable to ask "Will Russia attempt to annex Transnistia if Moldova moves to join NATO?"
Why not ask it that way, instead of getting cute?
For the record, I suggested 2 years ago that Russia might be a danger to Moldova and Georgia.
We continued to affirm they were, the latest example before the invasion the November 2021 U.S. - Ukraine Charter on Strategic Partnership.
In the same sense that JFK dictated the terms of Cuba and the USSR's alliance, yes.
Realpolitik is, well, real.
We told the USSR and Cuba that Soviet missiles and bombers 90 miles off the coast of Florida were a potential threat we wouldn't allow, at the risk of nuclear war to preclude its establishment.
If China and Mexico announced a military alliance tomorrow to head off American politicians threats to bomb and invade Mexico because of the drug war, do you think the U.S. would just shrug and allow it?
I don't.
No, he knows he can't beat NATO. That's why he's trying to keep NATO away.
Fact of the matter is that Ukrainian incorporation into NATO was never something the Ukrainian public supported until after the coup, when the predominately Russian aligned populations had left.
Ukrainians Likely Support Move Away From NATO
Residents more likely to view NATO as a threat than protection
BY JULIE RAY AND NELI ESIPOVAWASHINGTON, D.C. -- Ukrainians may support their new government's plans to prohibit the country from joining military alliances, which would effectively end its six-year pursuit of NATO membership. Residents in May 2009 were more than twice as likely to see NATO as a threat (40%) than as protection (17%). One in three said it was neither.
Like others in former Soviet countries, Ukrainians' views of NATO are largely explained by their country's relations and cultural ties to Russia, which opposes NATO expansion.
So no video and in fact a senior person saying he was not going to withdraw from nato.
Thanks for proving my point.
It's a thought experiment. I don't have anything specific in mind. But since you asked nicely...
Macron has been rather frisky lately, so let's imagine 2 scenarios where he commits planes and pilots to Ukraine, with French planes and pilots operating from French air bases.
1. French planes piloted by French pilots target Russian forces in Ukraine. Russia then bombs French air bases in retaliation. Is the US required to attack Russia because they attacked NATO France?
2. French planes piloted by French pilots target Russian factories in Russia. Russia then bombs French air bases in retaliation. Is the US required to attack Russia because they attacked NATO France?
You can play with variations on this. Some suggest the planes be based in NATO Poland. So in this variation, Russia strikes Poland, or France, or both.
Many here - including liberals, to my shock - seem to yearn for war with Russia. I'd rather not go there. I'm looking forward to watching the world go through the coming climate catastrophe. I'm going to be really disappointed if that gets preempted by nuclear war.
Sad that "video" is your only gauge here, despite multiple WH sources claiming it is true.
Not what the senior people claimed.
They had to convince him to remain supportive of NATO. Ergo: He wanted to opt out for his butt buddy, Putin.
Moar Freebies for you:
Donald Trump set off alarm bells in European capitals Thursday after suggesting he might not honor the core tenet of the NATO military alliance.
Trump said the U.S. would not necessarily defend new NATO members in the Baltics in the event of Russian attack if he were elected to the White House.
He told The New York Times in an interview published Thursday that doing so would depend on whether those countries had "fulfilled their obligations to us" in terms of their financial contributions to the alliance.
Trump's NATO Rethink 'Would Endanger the Whole Alliance'
Donald Trump's comments were perceived as potentially giving Russia carte blanche to intimidate NATO allies if he were to be elected president.
www.nbcnews.com
The hypothetical is implausible because France would not directly bomb Russians without coordination of NATO. So under either hypo, it’s war, and it’s been decided as a group.
Why do I bother?
I realize conservatives can't do nuance - don't know why, but I have learned that it's true - but I didn't know you can't do thought experiments.
Between 1991 and 2014, increasing numbers of Americans (and others) questioned the need for and value of NATO. Especially liberals, but also many conservatives.
Now Democrats are so gung ho NATO that Lindsey Graham probably thinks he's in the wrong party.
How did that happen?
Now Democrats are so gung ho NATO that Lindsey Graham probably thinks he's in the wrong party.
How did that happen?
Matt Gaetz: "If we send billions to Ukraine because of this Iranian attack, the terrorists win."
Can someone explain that to me?
I guess, by logical extension, anyone who favors helping Ukraine must be a terrorist.
Can someone explain that to me?
I guess, by logical extension, anyone who favors helping Ukraine must be a terrorist.
OMG for the last time I’m not a “conservative” I’m an independent. Just like I’m not a “lib” in the eyes of northern or whoever. So under your thought experiment, macron becomes a Hawk and unilaterally attacks Russians: 1 in Ukraine, and 2 in Russia. Russia responds and bombs France in france. What does Article 5 require? I don’t know I’m not an expert on it. Unencumbered by the law, I would say neither triggers anything because there has to be weasel words built into it permitting discretion, if a NATO member goes rogue. But it is a mildly academic exercise because it is not grounded in the possible.
I'd love to hear your positions on things.
Oh, wait! I have heard them.
You're a conservative who hides behind the independent label when convenient, and can even trot out the occasional not-so-conservative position - usually on something rather trivial, like legal pot, as opposed to something serious like the climate crisis or democracy.
Some war monger named Putin invaded another nation in Western Europe.
Your avatar is Bernie. Everyone not outer fringe left is right in your eyes. And what are your thoughts on my thoughts on climate and democracy? I will call a spade a spade and tell you if you are right.
No need for me to guess. You can prove me wrong much more effectively by telling us your not-conservative positions on important issues. Do you have some?
I am for democracy and against climate crisis? As for democracy, I’m not even sure what anti-democracy would be unless you think I support the insurrection and MAGA, which I don’t. As
For the climate, I’m for investment in green energy, and nuclear energy. I’m not going to sell one of my ICE cars just to replace it with an electric, but as ponies in the stable need to be replaced, I will give them every consideration. I’d you want solar panels on your house cool. I will do them if they make sense. I’m not sure what else you’re after.
You mean right after the fall of the Soviet Union? No fvcking way.
And what happened around 2014?
Russia was practically a failed state under Yeltsin. No need for NATO without an enemy. Fortunately for NATO, Putin annexed Crimea, so more money and power for NATO could be justified.
Shhhh...I was going to let him piece the timeline together
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