This might be a little tougher than Putin thought...

[seminole97]

"I'm not justifying Putin's criminal invasion, but here is my justification for Putin's criminal invasion."

You must never pick up a history book.

After the 1999 partition of Serbia NATO quit being just a defensive alliance. The most interesting aspect of that partition is that to this day several NATO nations (that didn’t participate in the bombing) refuse to recognize the partition. I guess someone should ask Spain how they feel about foreign powers backing separatist movements in their country.

After that move, there was the active role in helping jihadists overthrow an African government. Again, no NATO members were threatened, NATO was just used as international imprimatur by neocons to attack another nation and attempt to effect a regime change.

Anyone here want to promise NATO won’t bomb a third country that neither attacks or threatens to attack a NATO member?
How safe is that bet?

 

[h-hawk]

 

[h-hawk]

 

[h-hawk]

FWIW-I didn't realize they had agreed on this many.

 

[Joes Place]

You must never pick up a history book.

After the 1999 partition of Serbia NATO quit being just a defensive alliance.

You're just making shit up here, bro.

NATO isn't invading Russia. Never will, unless a NATO member is attacked.

 

[lucas80]

AP story about the breaking news from the Korean Peninsula. The love fest between Putin and Fatty Un, and the movement by South Korea towards directly sending armaments to Ukraine.

South Korea will consider supplying arms to Ukraine after Russia and North Korea sign strategic pact

Details of the agreement could mark the strongest connection between Moscow and Pyongyang since the end of the Cold War, observers say.

apnews.com

 

[Joes Place]

AP story about the breaking news from the Korean Peninsula. The love fest between Putin and Fatty Un, and the movement by South Korea towards directly sending armaments to Ukraine.

South Korea will consider supplying arms to Ukraine after Russia and North Korea sign strategic pact

Details of the agreement could mark the strongest connection between Moscow and Pyongyang since the end of the Cold War, observers say.

apnews.com

#UnintendedConsequences

 

[Bonerfarts]

AP story about the breaking news from the Korean Peninsula. The love fest between Putin and Fatty Un, and the movement by South Korea towards directly sending armaments to Ukraine.

South Korea will consider supplying arms to Ukraine after Russia and North Korea sign strategic pact

Details of the agreement could mark the strongest connection between Moscow and Pyongyang since the end of the Cold War, observers say.

apnews.com

The more you struggle the tighter the noose gets.

 

[lucas80]

Also from the AP, detailed story about the Russian use of glide bombs in their terror campaign against Ukrainian civilians. Unable to mount effective offensive actions they’ve resorted to attempts to force civilians to flee cities like Kharkiv.
Note that Russia still uses facilities in Belarus in this campaign, and is still able to circumvent sanctions to get the equipment needed to turn Soviet era bombs into semi precision bombs.

Russia obliterates Ukraine's front-line towns faster with hacked bombs and expanded air base network

Russia is intensifying its use of cheap glide bombs to lay waste to cities in eastern Ukraine. The latest generation of the retrofitted weapons have devastated Kharkiv, Avdiivka, Chasiv Yar and Vovchansk.

apnews.com

 

[kn288]

What all does a Patriot missile system entail?

 

[h-hawk]

Also from the AP, detailed story about the Russian use of glide bombs in their terror campaign against Ukrainian civilians. Unable to mount effective offensive actions they’ve resorted to attempts to force civilians to flee cities like Kharkiv.
Note that Russia still uses facilities in Belarus in this campaign, and is still able to circumvent sanctions to get the equipment needed to turn Soviet era bombs into semi precision bombs.

Russia obliterates Ukraine's front-line towns faster with hacked bombs and expanded air base network

Russia is intensifying its use of cheap glide bombs to lay waste to cities in eastern Ukraine. The latest generation of the retrofitted weapons have devastated Kharkiv, Avdiivka, Chasiv Yar and Vovchansk.

apnews.com

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

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As we all know, Romania borders Moldova. Moldova (along with Georgia) is considered one of Russia's most likely next targets, if you subscribe to the theory that Putin won't stop with Ukraine. The separatist Transnistria part of Moldova could make it easy for Russia to aggress there, even before the Ukraine war ends.

So it makes sense that Romania wants to help Ukraine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Patriot system is a US product. So I assume Romania had to get our permission to send it on to Ukraine. Where, in theory, it can be used without the restrictions that the US imposes on the gear we send them directly.

Clever work-around.

Romania may feel that they could be high on Russia's target list. A former Soviet Republic, it borders the Black Sea - which Russia clearly doesn't want to share with anyone (except Turkey).

So why are they reducing their own defenses? My guess is that the US will quickly replace whatever Romania sends. As we are doing with the Baltics and some others.

 

[h-hawk]

What all does a Patriot missile system entail?

I hope these donations include everything needed.

"Typically, a Patriot battery will include six to eight launching stations, a radar set, engagement control station (ECS), power generation and other support vehicles. While there are about 90 soldiers assigned to a Patriot battery, the ECS vehicle — which is based on a military cargo truck — is the only one manned.Feb 27, 2024"

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

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For those like me who want to know more about UMPK.

UMPK (bomb kit) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I hope these donations include everything needed.

"Typically, a Patriot battery will include six to eight launching stations, a radar set, engagement control station (ECS), power generation and other support vehicles. While there are about 90 soldiers assigned to a Patriot battery, the ECS vehicle — which is based on a military cargo truck — is the only one manned.Feb 27, 2024"

As I understand it this is a surface-to-air system but I believe I've read it can also be adapted to hit surface targets. Wikipedia says its range is 160 km (99 mi).

 

[h-hawk]

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

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How deep would they have to strike?

Short range strikes are being tolerated, so far. Do we just escalate bit by bit or go for long range right away?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

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I don't speak Russian, but that was pretty interesting.

 

[BlIIlken2]

With Russia and NK signing an agreement to help one another if one is attacked I foresee a Ukraine strike on Russian territory (with western weapons) being used as “NATO/West attacked us” and thus WW3 commences. Throw China and Iran into the backing it’s going to get spicy.

Plus the 2 other theatres of war teetering in the Middle East and Taiwan.

 

[Joes Place]

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They need to take out the rail lines/supply lines

Russian occupation collapses when they cannot resupply.

Make it happen.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

They need to take out the rail lines/supply lines

Russian occupation collapses when they cannot resupply.

Make it happen.

Makes sense.

The flip side leads me to wonder how we get our supplies to Ukraine. Mostly by rail, for the big stuff at least, I assume. So why hasn't Russia cut all the rail lines from, say, Poland? Or have they?

I mean we hear about delays getting gear to Ukraine, but I don't think I've ever heard of delays due to actual transportation difficulties. Usually it's down to Republicans stalling legislation, or training delays, or quibbling among NATO partners.

 

[BlIIlken2]

 

[h-hawk]

 

[h-hawk]

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

As I understand it this is a surface-to-air system but I believe I've read it can also be adapted to hit surface targets. Wikipedia says its range is 160 km (99 mi).

Which would be a huge waste of the system. The warhead isn't optimal for ground targets.

The Ukrainians are short on air defense and I'd be shocked if they used them on ground targets.

The Ukrainians have used older, obsolete soviet SAM's in that role though. Maybe that's what you read about.

 

[h-hawk]

"The moment of artillery attack on the bunker in Belgorod region"

 

[h-hawk]

"Explosions and smoke plumes have been reported at Cape Chauda in annexed Crimea.

The area is used by occupying Russian forces to launch kamikaze drones at Ukrainian targets from the Black Sea peninsula, which was annexed by President Vladimir Putin in 2014.

"Smoke after an explosion at Cape Chauda intensified," a Crimea-based Telegram channel called Crimean Wind said on Thursday, publishing a map showing the approximate location of the fire.

Cape Chauda, Crimea. Lots of ambulances and an explosion is heard, according to local residents!

Crimean Wind published a photo in a separate post, which appears to show plumes of smoke rising from the location. "Judging by the ambulances, there are definitely casualties there. According to our source, ammunition exploded," the channel said.

Newsweek couldn't independently verify the authenticity of the image and has contacted Russia's Defense Ministry for comment by email."

https://www.newsweek.com/crimea-explosions-smoke-cape-chauda-1915172

 

[seminole97]

Romania may feel that they could be high on Russia's target list. A former Soviet Republic, it borders the Black Sea - which Russia clearly doesn't want to share with anyone (except Turkey).

Romania was never a Soviet Republic.
They were an Axis ally in WW2, but flipped to the Allied side in August '44 as the Soviets threatened.

The Romanian Army ended the war fighting against the Wehrmacht alongside the Red Army in Transylvania, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Austria and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, from August 1944 until the end of the war in Europe. In May 1945, the First and Fourth armies took part in the Prague Offensive. The Romanian Army incurred heavy casualties fighting Nazi Germany. Of some 538,000 Romanian soldiers who fought against the Axis in 1944–45, some 167,000 were killed, wounded or went missing.

That actually played into the border issues you raised:

Under the 1947 Treaty of Paris,[43] the Allies did not acknowledge Romania as a co-belligerent nation but instead applied the term "ally of Hitlerite Germany" to all recipients of the treaty's stipulations. Like Finland, Romania had to pay $300 million to the Soviet Union as war reparations. However, the treaty specifically recognized that Romania switched sides on 24 August 1944, and therefore "acted in the interests of all the United Nations". As a reward, Northern Transylvania was, once again, recognized as an integral part of Romania, but the border with the USSR and Bulgaria was fixed at its state in January 1941, restoring the pre-Barbarossa status quo (with one exception). Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Eastern territories became part of Ukraine and the Republic of Moldova.
In Romania proper, Soviet occupation following World War II facilitated the rise of the Communist Party as the main political force, leading ultimately to the abdication of the King and the establishment of a single-party people's republic in 1947.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Romania was never a Soviet Republic.
They were an Axis ally in WW2, but flipped to the Allied side in August '44 as the Soviets threatened.

The Romanian Army ended the war fighting against the Wehrmacht alongside the Red Army in Transylvania, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Austria and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, from August 1944 until the end of the war in Europe. In May 1945, the First and Fourth armies took part in the Prague Offensive. The Romanian Army incurred heavy casualties fighting Nazi Germany. Of some 538,000 Romanian soldiers who fought against the Axis in 1944–45, some 167,000 were killed, wounded or went missing.

That actually played into the border issues you raised:

Under the 1947 Treaty of Paris,[43] the Allies did not acknowledge Romania as a co-belligerent nation but instead applied the term "ally of Hitlerite Germany" to all recipients of the treaty's stipulations. Like Finland, Romania had to pay $300 million to the Soviet Union as war reparations. However, the treaty specifically recognized that Romania switched sides on 24 August 1944, and therefore "acted in the interests of all the United Nations". As a reward, Northern Transylvania was, once again, recognized as an integral part of Romania, but the border with the USSR and Bulgaria was fixed at its state in January 1941, restoring the pre-Barbarossa status quo (with one exception). Following the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Eastern territories became part of Ukraine and the Republic of Moldova.
In Romania proper, Soviet occupation following World War II facilitated the rise of the Communist Party as the main political force, leading ultimately to the abdication of the King and the establishment of a single-party people's republic in 1947.

Thanks. Part of the Warsaw Pact, occupied by the USSR, but not part of the USSR proper.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

You're just making shit up here, bro.

NATO isn't invading Russia. Never will, unless a NATO member is attacked.

If you limit the discussion to "invading" you may be right. But he was talking about the times when NATO attacked and supplied combatants.

We like to think of it like the Musketeers - all for one and one for all. But it's more of a corporate (MIC) protection racket.

 

[Joes Place]

If you limit the discussion to "invading" you may be right. But he was talking about the times when NATO attacked

Ummm.... same thing.

 

[BlIIlken2]

 

[seminole97]

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Su-22 is an old fighter (what F-14s downed first time we tangled over the Gulf of Sidra with Libya).

He means Tu-22Ms, which are large bombers.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Ummm.... same thing.

Huh?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

 

[h-hawk]

 

[h-hawk]

 

[h-hawk]

 

[h-hawk]

 

[h-hawk]

Finally?