If you want to see young Ukrainians and Russians getting up to some debauchery just head to rooftop bar of the Watergate hotel in dc.
Ukraine urgently needs soldiers, but some men are desperate not to fight
- Thread starter NorthernHawkeye
- Start date
We can lend Ukraine some of the 10,000,000 military aged illegals we have that are chilling on our streets all day not doing a dam thing.
And Russia gets to keep all the territories it currently holds? Would Russia and Ukraine agree to that?
I don't know if they would agree to that. But that is the closest thing I can come up with to a settlement that ends the conflict and doesn't just kick the can down the road so Russia can have another go at them a couple years later.
As far as I see it even if Ukraine was willing to let go of it's territories that Russia holds, it still doesn't guarantee Ukraine's safety from future attack. And Russian promises arn't worth the paper they are printed on because Russia already had signed a treaty in which they promised to recognize and not interfere with Ukraine's sovereignty.
So there has to be a hard deterrent. The only one that I can come up with is NATO membership.
Does the concept of provocation only pertain to justified actions?
I can’t find that in the definition.
Do you read that as ‘the bad person was going to be justified’?
He is behaving badly.
What provoked this behavior?
Not ‘what justified this behavior?’
Can you acknowledge there is a difference?
The former is recognizing the bad person’s motive, the latter is morally agreeing with the person’s motive.
The concepts can be overlapping, but don’t have to be.
There are unjustified motives.
No, because I’m not conflating blame (justified accountability) with motive (reasons someone acts).
We can reasonably expect if the U.S. Congress offered Taiwan the chance to vote to be the 51st state that China would view it as a hostile act, and more likely than not respond militarily before allowing that to come to fruition.
Recognizing that reality is realpolitik, it isn’t ‘justifying’ the Chicom’s ambitions to recognize the mortal peril a morally justified policy could place the people of Taiwan in.
Ukraine heading toward NATO was one of the reasons for this war.
We don't have to agree that it justifies the war, as Russia claims, but it is, nevertheless, one of the reasons.
Which is to say, that it's unlikely that Russia will agree to that as a condition of a negotiated peace. Unless, perhaps, they get a big enough chunk of Ukraine.
How much is a big enough chunk?
Not exactly. I vote for not letting them off the ropes as invaders in a land grabbing war THEY started until their military and economy can no longer hide the truth and they realize what 25 years of Putin has done. They are destroying themselves so I vote for that to continue.
The only way I see peace possibly working is A) Russia gets to keep the land they grabbed in East Ukraine and B) Ukraine gets Crimea and NATO invite that freezes borders. Crimea is going to be harder to hold by Russia and is way more valuable to Ukraine.
Are there "natural borders" that could provide defensible borders - or at least sensible borders - in a negotiated settlement?
The Dnipro River from Dnipro city moving south looks like one such natural border.
But what about the territory north of the city of Dnipro?
1. The territory to the east of the Dnipro all the way to Kyiv would be a hard sell, even if Russia commanded that territory - which it doesn't.
2. How about all the territory to the east of a line from Dnipro city to Karkiv? Again, Russia doesn't control that territory. But it does seem to be aiming at it.
3. How about the territory Russia controls now?
Russia wants all of Ukraine. Ukraine wants all of Ukraine.
The only way one side gets all it wants is through victory. Otherwise it has to be a negotiated settlement.
The Dnipro River from Dnipro city moving south looks like one such natural border.
But what about the territory north of the city of Dnipro?
1. The territory to the east of the Dnipro all the way to Kyiv would be a hard sell, even if Russia commanded that territory - which it doesn't.
2. How about all the territory to the east of a line from Dnipro city to Karkiv? Again, Russia doesn't control that territory. But it does seem to be aiming at it.
3. How about the territory Russia controls now?
Russia wants all of Ukraine. Ukraine wants all of Ukraine.
The only way one side gets all it wants is through victory. Otherwise it has to be a negotiated settlement.
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I agree, it's highly questionable that they would agree to that. On the other hand what other options are there that give Ukraine hard guarantees on it's safety and sovereignty?
Because Ukraine knows that any settlement without hard guarantees buys them what maybe 5 years before Russia just decides they want the whole thing?
Despite its small size Estonia has been outspoken over the last several months related to the war. For example it recently appeared to back French President Macron's call for NATO to consider sending Western troops to Ukraine:
Oh boy. I’m sure those Ukrainian soldiers are just thrilled with this idea.
It'll be interesting watching Macron and other NATO leaders tell their countrymen to fight for Ukraine while Ukraine won't even require their 18-24 year olds to serve and many of their 25 plus men are fleeing the country.
Now hear me out but let's say Russia came to a military agreement with Tijuana, or Toronto, or Puerto Rico, or Edmonton?.....
Would we sit around and be like "wow that's neat those cities and Russia get along" or would we start military exercises and invade?
Let's say a few years prior the US had invaded Canada and annexed British Columbia to give us an unobstructed land routes to Alaska. And let's say Russia and Canada entered into a military agreement that stated that any attack on Canada would be considered an attack on Russia.
It would be difficult for me to view such an agreement as a provocation. And if we rattled our sabers in advance and said "We don't care if we've already laid our eyes on Canada, and annexed an important part of it, you cannot enter into a defense agreement with anyone." I would still not view such a move to be a provocation.
Because we would be the bad guys.
Are you saying Russia invaded other countries in the past for zero reason?
We would never pull that move right? Or have we?
Like when JFK threw a blockade around Cuba (a country we had invaded more than once, certainly an occupation within the living memory of many at the time) because he wouldn’t cotton missiles and bomber bases that close to the US border.
Compromised our security, in our opinion, so we wouldn’t let them do it under penalty of open war.
They demurred, and open war was avoided.
Russians made the same pleas over Ukraine. They were told to pound sand, so they’re pounding Ukraine instead.
The people who predicted it have been demonstrated correct in their prior assessment.
i think some people might see a difference in level of provocation between "deploying nuclear weapons 90 miles away" and "discussing membership in a military alliance"
Have we taken Cuba? And not Bay of Pigs half-assery, but actually taking the island.
Look dude Putin is a bad guy. From day 1 till now I've been rooting for Ukraine.
But you cannot over a period of time systematically encroach on a foreign superpower's border while installing rocket launchers and not expect a response. We wouldn't stand by and let it happen either.
People on here call me a Putin apologist or comrade or whatever but I see it for what it is. Putin could have sent missiles into the Arctic or pulled some Nuclear propaganda instead of invading but to say Putin invaded Ukraine unprovoked is hilariously false.
We did attack Cuba though didn't we? Putin hasn't taken all of Ukraine either.
This is the basis for MAGAs hating a country they couldn’t give a shit about five years ago.
Not Bay of Pigs half-assery, but actually taking the island. And I remember way back in the year 2022 when a column of tanks stalled outside of Kiev.
look if we're going to count times cia-backed insurgents or rebels tried to overthrow a government because of a difference in economic policy, we're going to be here all day...
They have just as good of a reason for attacking Ukraine that we did for invading and bombing the shit out of Iraq
we attacked cuba before they had a real direct relationship with the soviets, certainly before they were home to offensive soviet weaponry
we did to cuba what we did to (or tried to do to) many countries...iran, hondorus, nicaragua, chile, etc
I think you confuse Russia for a country that gives a damn about fatality numbers during a war
I am confused. I thought that was tongue-in-cheek but comrade Buttershawk gave your post hearty eyes so I am confused.
You asked if "Russia is full scale attacking another country". The answer is yes. That Russia does not regard the value of human life is an adjacent truth, but not directly relevant to the question posed.
Here's my feelings. I want Ukraine to win. Putin is an evil person. I hate war and proxy wars.
Heres where am I different with most people....
-I do not care about some slivers of Eastern Ukraine enough to send money or US troops there.
-Unprovoked would mean Putin literally woke up one day and said " hey comrades let's gather our troops and take over Ukraine" if you actually believe that you are an idiot. There's no other way to say it.
We did not invade Cuba once they were allied with Russia and housed their offensive weaponry.
it was tongue in cheek...
russia had what was basically a soviet satellite state in cuba for 30 years and we didn't invade
in general, the whole question of "provoking" is ridiculous. ukraine is a sovereign country with the right to self governance. an invasion being justified because of the mere discussion of a military alliance, to me, only serves to justify ukraine's interest in that military alliance (which, important to note, still hasn't actually happened)
I'm not sure we are on the same page. I'm also a sun drenched and coors light 18 holes deep right now.
For all we know we may agree on this issue more than we think
I guess Ukraine provoked Russia in the same way an attractive woman provokes rape by being attractive. That's that analogy.
Doesn't Cuba have a right to make military alliances with whomever they want without fear of invasion from the U.S.?
Morally, yes.
Historically, no.
