Ukraine urgently needs soldiers, but some men are desperate not to fight
- Thread starter NorthernHawkeye
- Start date
Probably not.
True or False Ukraine entry into NATO has been discussed correct?
The Obama administration played a part in fomenting a coup of a duly elected president. This is widely known.
While perhaps an interesting read, it is ultimately irrelevant as to whether we have taken Cuba as a prophylactic measure.Excellent read.
Accepting your post as true, what is your point? Russia doesn't like the government in place so it gets to invade and take the country for itself?
Ok so were we anymore justified in Invading Iraq then Putin is in invading Ukraine?
That is my point. I'm not saying he is correct or justified in what he is doing. But to simply say "he has no reason" or "his attack on Ukraine is unprovoked" is just silly.
Comrade Butters: "Now hear me out but let's say Russia came to a military agreement with Tijuana, or Toronto, or Puerto Rico, or Edmonton?..... Would we sit around and be like "wow that's neat those cities and Russia get along" or would we start military exercises and invade?"
Me: "Have we taken Cuba? And not Bay of Pigs half-assery, but actually taking the island."
Comrade Butters: "We did attack Cuba though didn't we? Putin hasn't taken all of Ukraine either."
Me: "Not Bay of Pigs half-assery, but actually taking the island. And I remember way back in the year 2022 when a column of tanks stalled outside of Kiev."
Comrade Butters: "Are you saying Russia is full scale attacking another country?"
Me: "Are you not?"
Comrade Butters: "They have just as good of a reason for attacking Ukraine that we did for invading and bombing the shit out of Iraq"
Me: Answer the question. See if this pic helps:
Comrade Butters: "I think you confuse Russia for a country that gives a damn about fatality numbers during a war"
Me: "You asked if "Russia is full scale attacking another country". The answer is yes. That Russia does not regard the value of human life is an adjacent truth, but not directly relevant to the question posed."
Comrade Butters: "Here's my feelings. I want Ukraine to win. Putin is an evil person. I hate war and proxy wars.
Heres where am I different with most people....
-I do not care about some slivers of Eastern Ukraine enough to send money or US troops there.
-Unprovoked would mean Putin literally woke up one day and said " hey comrades let's gather our troops and take over Ukraine" if you actually believe that you are an idiot. There's no other way to say it."
Me: "I guess Ukraine provoked Russia in the same way an attractive woman provokes rape by being attractive. That's that analogy."
I didn't say he didn't have a reason, but that doesn't mean he was provoked. Here is McCain on Putin's reasons:
America’s Ukraine Hypocrisy
The extent of the Obama administration’s meddling in Ukraine’s politics was breathtaking.
Putin doesn't like Ukraine's government so he gets to invade and take Ukraine. Got it.
Thanks. That was fun. I would have liked to hear a direct answer to this one:
Comrade Butters: "They have just as good of a reason for attacking Ukraine that we did for invading and bombing the shit out of Iraq"
I think the Iraq war is probably the closest analog to the Ukraine war. I consider both to be criminal wars, but most Americans at the time, and many still, thought we were justified invading Iraq.
The west and Russia have had nukes pointed at each other for decades. Security concerns were a pretext for Putin, for the reasons McCain laid out in the video linked above. He wanted the land bridge and restoration of the Russian empire. I would like to think we took out Saddam for actual perceived security risks, in the wake of 9/11. Some (probably you) think it was simply a pretext to secure oil supply. If you believe everything was pretextual, then you can probably draw a close analogy, minus the war crimes and indiscriminately bombing civilians.
Realpolitik.
We didn't like Ukraine's pro-Russia government so we engineered a Ukraine Spring. It worked (as opposed to the one in Syria).
Obama basically stole Ukraine - moving it from Russia's sphere of influence to the West's sphere of influence. Putin snatched back Crimea - and a lot here condemned Obama for allowing it - but the West still had 90% of Ukraine.
We probably should have spent more time consolidating that win before knowingly crossing Russia's red line on NATO.
The Obama administration played a role in fomenting a coup of a duly elected president because they didn't like the results. Got it.
Jesus Christ. Obama "stole" Ukraine and the West "had" 80% of Ukraine? Asserting influence on an election is tantamount to invading another country while committing war crimes, razing entire cities, and killing hundreds of thousands of people? False equivalency at its peak.
Asserting influence on an election is tantamount to invading another country while committing war crimes, razing entire cities, and killing hundreds of thousands of people? False equivalency at its peak.
At least you and Northern see eye to eye on this. That should make you feel good.
Good grief. You're the one playing the "equivalency" card, not me.
Obama pulled a move that the West liked. Putin pulled a move the West didn't like.
Look at what happened, not at the propaganda.
Hardly. I lament my liberal friends being deluded by the media they used to be smart enough to assess critically.
What? "Pulling a move" as in trying to influence an election is not "puling a move" as in invading a country and killing hundreds of thousands of people. That is the height of false equivalency.
How about commissioning a HROT Brigade?!?! Here's your chance, shut-ins, to put the metal where the meat is and show those Trump loving Russkies a thing or two!! Remember, every bullet you take, is like slapping Trump in the face!!!!! Who is first?? @Chishawk1425? 🤡While volunteers lined up to fight Russia at the beginning of the war, manpower shortages are now an issue that could seal Ukraine’s fate even if it can retain Western support.
Ukraine urgently needs soldiers, but some men are desperate not to fight
While volunteers lined up to fight Russia at the beginning of the war, manpower shortages are now an issue that could seal Ukraine’s fate even if it can retain Western support.www.nbcnews.com
You're getting rather hysterical. So I'll just point out that the discussion was about Obama taking Ukraine and Putin taking Crimea - as 2 moves on the realpolitik chess board. Not the current Ukraine war.
It wasn't "asserting influence on an election" as you characterized it.
The election already happened.
Nuland and Pyatt were engaged in such planning at a time when Yanukovych was still Ukraine’s lawful president. It was startling to have diplomatic representatives of a foreign country—and a country that routinely touts the need to respect democratic processes and the sovereignty of other nations—to be scheming about removing an elected government and replacing it with officials meriting U.S. approval.
We engineered regime change. It was relatively (but not entirely) bloodless.
It's something we do. Sometimes it's arguably a good thing, sometimes not. That's why I recommended the book, above.
I’m hysterical. This is why I generally don’t bother with you anymore.
Not initially.
First we trained an army of exiles in Guatemala for the Bay of Pigs invasion.
That failed, but for some reason the Cubans didn't forget about it.
Following the failed invasion, the US massively escalated its sponsorship of terrorism against Cuba. Starting in late 1961, using the military and the CIA, the US government engaged in an extensive campaign of state-sponsored terrorism against civilian and military targets on the island. The terrorist attacks killed significant numbers of civilians. The US armed, trained, funded and directed the terrorists, most of whom were Cuban expatriates. Terrorist attacks were planned at the direction and with the participation of US government employees and launched from US territory.[26] In January 1962, US Air Force General Edward Lansdale described the plans to overthrow the Cuban government in a top-secret report, addressed to Kennedy and officials involved with Operation Mongoose.[27][18] CIA agents or "pathfinders" from the Special Activities Division were to be infiltrated into Cuba to carry out sabotage and organization, including radio broadcasts.[28] In February 1962, the US launched an embargo against Cuba,[29] and Lansdale presented a 26-page, top-secret timetable for implementation of the overthrow of the Cuban government, mandating guerrilla operations to begin in August and September. "Open revolt and overthrow of the Communist regime" was hoped by the planners to occur in the first two weeks of October.[18]
The terrorism campaign and the threat of invasion were crucial factors in the Soviet decision to position the missiles on Cuba, and in the Cuban government's decision to accept.[30][31][32][33] The US government was aware at the time, as reported to the president in a National Intelligence Estimate, that the invasion threat was a key reason for Cuban acceptance of the missiles.[34][35]
Russia survives wars, it doesn't win them.
That’s the thing, using our unjustified invasion of Iraq as justification for Russia invading Ukraine is absurd.
bottom line is Russia is going to get a portion of Ukraine. Not sure how much but I think the longer the war lasts the further west Russia's border is going to end up. Beyond that though Putin's military has been exposed as a paper tiger.
Several reasons. Ukraine already had a shortage of men especially unmarried young adult ones. They leave or become drunks.
To understand Ukraine is to know the culture. Ukraine would also have to fight an army of mothers and babushkas.
Not really. The deeper into the war the better the Union Army became and by the end was the best in the world.
Russia has learned to jam modern US weapons and know weak points.
