Well we didn't grow much

[HawkAssassin]

Edwards sure looked like a PG last night. And your argument actually makes Fran's PG recruiting look worse. Purdue had multiple legitimate PGs on the floor against us.

You didn't give an example.

Multiple legitimate point guards? They have one guy in Edwards who can consistently get to the rim. The rest of their guards are role players who function well in a system. There's nothing remotely special about their players, they're just far more experienced.

If you want to crown an OK player like PJ Thompson and dismiss Bohannon, there is nothing more to discuss.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

You didn't give an example.

Multiple legitimate point guards? They have one guy in Edwards who can consistently get to the rim. The rest of their guards are role players who function well in a system. There's nothing remotely special about their players, they're just far more experienced.

If you want to crown an OK player like PJ Thompson and dismiss Bohannon, there is nothing more to discuss.

Purdue and Iowa both started a FR PG.
Purdue's FR PG: 26 mins, 7/13 and 3/6 from the floor, 2 for 2 FTs for 19 pts. 4 rbs, 5 assts, 2 stls, 2 TOs
Iowa's FR PG: 23 mins, 2/8 and 0/4 from the floor, 2 for 2 FTs for 6 pts. 1 rbs, 4 assts, 0 stls, 0 TOs
How's that for an example?

 

[Auger]

You didn't give an example.

Multiple legitimate point guards? They have one guy in Edwards who can consistently get to the rim. The rest of their guards are role players who function well in a system. There's nothing remotely special about their players, they're just far more experienced.

If you want to crown an OK player like PJ Thompson and dismiss Bohannon, there is nothing more to discuss.

I agree. This kind of proves my point too. JBo has been ok to solid at being the PG for Iowa but like I said he would look better if his backcourt mates didnt have so many holes in their games. Purdue's backcourt played very well as a team last night. On the flip side without Winston and Tum Tum at PG MSU would be in the basement of the B1G.

My point people can't blame Iowa's backcourt on JBo not being a true PG without also blaming Jok for never developing D nor a sound all-around game. You can be a good to elite team without having a true above avg PG as long as you have a good soild collective group of backcourt players. And you can be good if you have a true above avg PG but lack a solid collective group of backcourt players. Iowa's problem isn't a single position or a single player problem its a team problem right now.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

I agree. This kind of proves my point too. JBo has been ok to solid at being the PG for Iowa but like I said he would look better if his backcourt mates didnt have so many holes in their games. Purdue's backcourt played very well as a team last night. On the flip side without Winston and Tum Tum at PG MSU would be in the basement of the B1G.

My point people can't blame Iowa's backcourt on JBo not being a true PG without also blaming Jok for never developing D nor a sound all-around game. You can be a good to elite team without having a true above avg PG as long as you have a good soild collective group of backcourt players. And you can be good if you have a true above avg PG but lack a solid collective group of backcourt players. Iowa's problem isn't a single position or a single player problem its a team problem right now.

We can go down the list of each player's short comings if you guys want. They all have them. Every player has them. I was at least restricting my criticism to a specific position. And it doesn't matter who on this roster steps into that position. None of them are quality PGs.

 

[HawkAssassin]

Purdue and Iowa both started a FR PG.
Purdue's FR PG: 26 mins, 7/13 and 3/6 from the floor, 2 for 2 FTs for 19 pts. 4 rbs, 5 assts, 2 stls, 2 TOs
Iowa's FR PG: 23 mins, 2/8 and 0/4 from the floor, 2 for 2 FTs for 6 pts. 1 rbs, 4 assts, 0 stls, 0 TOs
How's that for an example?

Your stats mean nothing to me. Stats do nothing to explain why something happens, they're merely a guide.

For example I can half ass it and say because Jordan shot poorly from three he was awful. Or I can note how two good screens by Jok gave him open threes that he missed or how he bobbled a pass which caused another open three to be short. These are shots that we all have seen him make and I expect him to do so.

I can point to his aggressiveness to attack when the defense gave him a lane. He's been attacking more lately to keep people honest.

If you can't list an example where something about Jordan's play style let the team down, then I will assume that you did not watch the game.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Your stats mean nothing to me. Stats do nothing to explain why something happens, they're merely a guide.

For example I can half ass it and say because Jordan shot poorly from three he was awful. Or I can note how two good screens by Jok gave him open threes that he missed or how he bobbled a pass which caused another open three to be short. These are shots that we all have seen him make and I expect him to do so.

I can point to his aggressiveness to attack when the defense gave him a lane. He's been attacking more lately to keep people honest.

If you can't list an example where something about Jordan's play style let the team down, then I will assume that you did not watch the game.

You asked for an example. I gave it to you. Not my fault that you don't like it because it proves my point. If you're waiting around for me to choose an example that you can easily poke holes in and attack......well, hold your breath for as long as you can. Even when you feel yourself passing out. Keep holding it.

 

[RocknRollface]

Fran has more issues with who he is trying to give minutes too. Uhl, Williams & Wagner have tremendous holes in their games that really diminish what they bring to the floor. Cook really struggles to rebound and play good defense but he's ultra talented and needs the minutes to develop. Fran has a boatload of 4's on this team and that is a huge issue. Wagner has the athleticism to play the 3 but zero offensive game outside of dunking so he has to be an under-sized garbage man 4 which we do not need. That's what Baer brings too and is another 4. He is a defensive liability at the 3 with on-the-ball D.

I think Fran should be playing Dailey a lot more than Williams and Uhl backing up the 1-3 and Kreiner at the 5 whenever we struggle inside with opposing bigs and with rebounding.

Seriously could we have anymore 4's with Cook, Pemsl, Wagner, Baer, Uhl ?

Yes, Jones.

 

[Eternal Return]

A reality check: Iowa has the fourth youngest team in D1 basketball this year. That is why they seem to have no identity as of yet.

 

[RocknRollface]

The thing that really dissapoints me is the guy that consistently puts the least amount of effort and concentration on defense is Jok.

 

[DanL53]

Why does everyone expect Wagner to transition into a "3"? Wouldn't Cook be the more natural fit, given his ability to shoot from some range, plus his ability to drive? I think he's shown himself to have enough athletic ability to learn how to guard on the perimeter. Perhaps he would be more effective crashing the glass with his athleticism from the perimeter on offense.

Two reasons.

(Insert "just the PTL thing here) Between the PTL two years ago and last year Wagner went from a guy who couldn't hit the basket with a shot gun to a pretty good shooter. He's not yet been turned lose in games as it isn't in the top ten best offensive choices just yet. But I do know McCaffery has all his bigs working on their outside shots. Not just for fun.

According to Jok, Wagner has the quickest first step he's ever seen. I wouldn't mind having that outside the paint facing the basket.

By the way, I've no problem if Cook can move out either, agree with what you said about him. But between the two I envision Wagner as potentially a better wing defender.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

A reality check: Iowa has the fourth youngest team in D1 basketball this year. That is why they seem to have no identity as of yet.

This just highlights Fran's recruiting failures in his 7th season, for most of us. It's not that we have such a young team. It's "why do we have such a young team"? People were expecting more from a head coach in his 7th season.

 

[RocknRollface]

This just highlights Fran's recruiting failures in his 7th season, for most of us. It's not that we have such a young team. It's "why do we have such a young team"? People were expecting more from a head coach in his 7th season.

Having a young team happens to most programs at some point. Not a big deal.

The problem is out of all the young players there's no real pg.

Bohanon is doing what he can but its not his natural position.

We have to get one by next year or the rest of this young talent isn't going to achieve what they otherwise could.

5th year guy, juco, prep school, highschooler. Doesn't matter. Has to happen.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Having a young team happens to most programs at some point. Not a big deal.

The problem is out of all the young players there's no real pg.

Bohanon is doing what he can but its not his natural position.

We have to get one by next year or the rest of this young talent isn't going to achieve what they otherwise could.

5th year guy, juco, prep school, highschooler. Doesn't matter. Has to happen.

Fran is going to let Connor take that role. What are your feelings on that? Have you ever seen connor play?

 

[RocknRollface]

Fran is going to let Connor take that role. What are your feelings on that? Have you ever seen connor play?

I hope thats not option #1 in his mind.

 

[HeRKeYHoPeFuL]

Two reasons.

(Insert "just the PTL thing here) Between the PTL two years ago and last year Wagner went from a guy who couldn't hit the basket with a shot gun to a pretty good shooter. He's not yet been turned lose in games as it isn't in the top ten best offensive choices just yet. But I do know McCaffery has all his bigs working on their outside shots. Not just for fun.

According to Jok, Wagner has the quickest first step he's ever seen. I wouldn't mind having that outside the paint facing the basket.

By the way, I've no problem if Cook can move out either, agree with what you said about him. But between the two I envision Wagner as potentially a better wing defender.

Interesting, I hadn't heard the first step comment. I know Wagner can move well, just from an offensive perspective I think Cook could more easily transition.

 

[DanL53]

Interesting, I hadn't heard the first step comment. I know Wagner can move well, just from an offensive perspective I think Cook could more easily transition.

Agreed, if I had to move one out today it would be Cook.

 

[bagdropper]

Purdue is a team that has both inside and outside scoring, plays good enough defense inside and outside, and is a lot more veteran than Iowa is.

At their place, they should kick Iowa's ass.

Now...if you want to piss and moan about the deficiencies of the players on this team, your anger in part should be directed elsewhere I believe.

The reason it's so young is probably best laid upon what Fran inherited. If my memory is good, he had 4 schollie players before his first year - the ripple effect is that at some point, once again, Iowa would eventually be short of veteran players IF they topped up big time in a single year or two. Which happened.

It just happens to be this year that it came home to roost.

Now, if you want to talk quality of recruits the team now has, sure - but to me that's a different discussion. But considering Iowa never has, and probably never will - get class after class on par with the Duke's, Kentucky's, and MSU's of the world - why would I demand that it always happen?

If that's going to piss you off, you need to root for another team cause Iowa will always piss you off with every class.

To me, this year was a "throw-away year" before the season ever started unless the kids coming in were ready to go in a much bigger fashion that the sum of the parts would have indicated.

It's an imperfect team, experienced or not. I do believe it's a good foundation for major success down the road if the missing pieces are found. While I believe JoBo will become a viable point, I'd really like to have another one as good if not better than him.

To me, it's foolhardy to demand something Iowa basketball has quite frankly never achieved (a grade A class coming in every year), enabling consistent year in year out every damn year they ain't ever rebuilding.

I'm 54, and that's never happened, even under Olsen and Davis.

It isn't accepting, it's knowing that history tells us, there's going to be down years. And hell, there's truly only about 15 or so programs out of 330 or so that avoid that. Chances are, if that's the only thing that will ever make one happy, they're going to be perpetually pissed off about Iowa basketball.

Personally, I think they should be more pissed about last year and not taking full advantage of the experience then...which is where I sit. I knew this year was going to suck last year when Iowa went out the way it did, and knowing we were going to be very, very inexperienced overall.

It does suck...but then again, I didn't delude myself into expecting something that was pretty much 95% certain not to happen either. But I do have some hope in believing that the pieces are mostly in place to where at worst 2 years down the road, Iowa - with many of the cast of characters already in place now - is going to be a damn good basketball team.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

Why are we moving Cook/Wagner out to the 3 again?

 

[Eternal Return]

This just highlights Fran's recruiting failures in his 7th season, for most of us. It's not that we have such a young team. It's "why do we have such a young team"? People were expecting more from a head coach in his 7th season.

I was expecting a rebuilding year after losing 4 seniors. His teams made the NCAAs three seasons in a row before this year and even though the quality of the recruits in this year's and last year's class are good, they're freshman and sophomores (or RS freshmen). It is unusual to have overloaded classes like this and Fran may have made some mistakes in that regard, but the recruiting quality is improving. As far as what people are expecting in his seventh season ... Tell me, which past Iowa coach was doing world's better by his seventh season? Lickliter? Alford? Tom Davis? George Raveling? You have to go back almost thirty-five years to Lute Olson, a Hall of Fame coach. I don't know what your expectations are, but a history lesson should help gain perspective. The recruiting outlook in Fran's seventh year looks much better than every coach since Olson--Raveling never made it seven seasons so who knows there, Tom Davis's recruiting went downhill over his tenure, Alford's recruiting went downhill as well (not to mention he was a rape apologist), and Lickliter was atrocious. We could do a lot worse than Fran McCaffery as Iowa's coach. Dear lord, don't run this guy off with the young talent on the roster and the recruits he's got in the pipeline. We'll be back to square one with the possibility of another Lickliter or Alford as the next coach.

 

[Ronman]

This just highlights Fran's recruiting failures in his 7th season, for most of us. It's not that we have such a young team. It's "why do we have such a young team"? People were expecting more from a head coach in his 7th season.

I don't know how you feel competent to speak for "most of us." "Most of us" aren't complete dicks. Actually I would bet that "most of us" feel McCaffery has done a good job here and are willing to stay patient with this young team. You, on the other hand, feel the need to bitch and moan in every post. I would wager that "most of us" are pretty sick of you.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

Tonight showed these guys haven't really grown much when playing top 25 quality teams since playing Virginia, Notre Dame and so on. However I would refrain from destroying these guys. Sometimes pups just need to get taken down by the veteran dogs in order to learn. I think the players got caught up in the hype much like us fans after this last win streak against pretty weak competition including down ISU and UNI squads. Being young these players forgot that the B1G is an entire different monster.

Michigan will give us a better gage on where this team is at in the B1G. Michigan represents what the Hawks will be facing talent wise for most of the B1G season. I said it at the beginning of the season if you thought Iowa was a Dance team then you were going to be disappointed.

In addition to holding serve against the bottom teams there are 4-5 swing games that can get us in the tournament. Sunday is the first one. The game yesterday didn't afffect my season outlook one bit.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

I don't know how you feel competent to speak for "most of us." "Most of us" aren't complete dicks. Actually I would bet that "most of us" feel McCaffery has done a good job here and are willing to stay patient with this young team. You, on the other hand, feel the need to bitch and moan in every post. I would wager that "most of us" are pretty sick of you.

You don't read all of my posts, so don't put words in my mouth and I wont put words in yours.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

I was expecting a rebuilding year after losing 4 seniors. His teams made the NCAAs three seasons in a row before this year and even though the quality of the recruits in this year's and last year's class are good, they're freshman and sophomores (or RS freshmen). It is unusual to have overloaded classes like this and Fran may have made some mistakes in that regard, but the recruiting quality is improving. As far as what people are expecting in his seventh season ... Tell me, which past Iowa coach was doing world's better by his seventh season? Lickliter? Alford? Tom Davis? George Raveling? You have to go back almost thirty-five years to Lute Olson, a Hall of Fame coach. I don't know what your expectations are, but a history lesson should help gain perspective. The recruiting outlook in Fran's seventh year looks much better than every coach since Olson--Raveling never made it seven seasons so who knows there, Tom Davis's recruiting went downhill over his tenure, Alford's recruiting went downhill as well (not to mention he was a rape apologist), and Lickliter was atrocious. We could do a lot worse than Fran McCaffery as Iowa's coach. Dear lord, don't run this guy off with the young talent on the roster and the recruits he's got in the pipeline. We'll be back to square one with the possibility of another Lickliter or Alford as the next coach.

I would have fired all of those coaches by the time they were fired or sooner. Olson was the last great Iowa basketball coach, IMO.

 

[HawkLogic]

What is a throw away year? Winning 6 games in B1G?

disappointing that we got our azz kicked and were never in the game. The loss was expected, the degree of the beat down was surprising. I agree that Michigan game at home will tell us a lot.

 

[StatisticsLie]

Everybody else wants you to give up "the PG schtick".

2 different arguments... You said a good point guard will beat us and he said we needed a good point guard. Those arguments are not the same. An apples to oranges comparison doesn't work and makes for a weak argument. London Perrantes isn't setting the world on fire as a senior point guard but Virginia dominated Iowa with defense. Iowa's losses have more to do with other team's defense and our lack of defense than it does with a point guard.

As for Edwards, he is a good point guard playing in an established system with veterans around him. You're bound to have better production from a guy playing with a talented group that all have experience. We saw this with Williams and Wagner as they both looked better last year than they do this year. It works the same way with all sports, Beathard looked better with WR's last year, a baseball lineup like the Indians with lots of good veterans and a few good younger guys looks better than Mike Trout being stuck with a bunch of rookies. Narrowing it down to a single player when they had 5 players in double digit scoring seems a bit ridiculous.

 

[StatisticsLie]

I would have fired all of those coaches by the time they were fired or sooner. Olson was the last great Iowa basketball coach, IMO.

And Iowa fans would be calling for your head.... You are a bit delusional to think you can just go out and sign a guy who will give you an instant legacy.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

First, how often do you see a team hitting 100% of their free throws lose, much less get killed. That's an oddity. The problem is our boys are boys. Other than Peter Hawk's next four best players are freshmen. Have to figure out a way to keep Cordell and Troy on the floor together.

Iowa's freshmen were not prepared to play a ranked B1G opponent. They got really punched in the face but they are freshmen. This idea that Bohannon is not a legitimate B1G point guard is silly. He's gotten consistently better at getting into the teeth of the defense. He's got a way to go but he's in his 14th game. He's shooting 85% from the line, has a positive A/TO ratio and the kind of shooting form that makes it obvious he will become a very good shooter (Oglesby did not have a great form, don't go there). A point guard can look pretty quick when the defender has to respect his fake and play defense in his strap. While Bohannon's speed is not superlative it is far from deficient for his position.

Baer and Ellingson are a great pair off the pine. They both played far better than the freshmen. I was sitting thinking Brady was doing a good job defensively right as he got posterized. I think his overall D is better but sometimes his burns just look so bad it overshadows his defensive improvement. Brady even handled the ball proficiently last night and got into the lane again. Their experience showed. For those looking, Brady is hitting 67% from 3 and 100% from the line. That is a contribution required by every winning team.

The three other guys, Wagner and much worse Uhl and Williams are really not positive contributors in their current positions. Wags is just too short. Kreiner certainly showed more court awareness and upside than we've seen from Uhl, who seems to be getting worse not better. Williams also seems to be regressing. Time for a look at Dailey as the reserve PG. Dailey might make some mistakes but he won't stop the offense as does Williams.

There won't be many games where Jok is frozen cold, Moss scores zero and Cordell and Troy face a front line with Swanigan and Ivan Drago. The boys will grow. Now they have some idea of the level of effort and concentration that is needed to win in conference. Let's see how they respond.

 

[ZumaHawk]

To be honest...it was one of those games. At the same time with all the talk of Defense which is important. Our first 2 subs played 27 minutes together and scored 4 points. Throw in Moss & Wagner with 0 between them. We have 58 minutes with 4 total points. If one is going to score 0 or only 2 points you better play some ferocious defense.

 

[HawkAssassin]

You asked for an example. I gave it to you. Not my fault that you don't like it because it proves my point. If you're waiting around for me to choose an example that you can easily poke holes in and attack......well, hold your breath for as long as you can. Even when you feel yourself passing out. Keep holding it.

You listed a bunch of stats with no context. It's a poor example if you could even call it one. There is no attempt whatsoever to explain why Edwards did what he did and Bohannon did what he did. Which wouldn't be hard if you watched the game, which you clearly didn't.

 

[Eternal Return]

I would have fired all of those coaches by the time they were fired or sooner. Olson was the last great Iowa basketball coach, IMO.

lol. Fair enough. I never would have hired Alford in the first place and I wouldn't have followed with Lickliter. But there's two ways to look at your strategy. One, we could have found a coach as good as Lute Olson in that time. Two, and probably more likely, we would have had two times more mediocre-to-bad head coaches at Iowa in that time. Fran's our best bet in the near future. We'll see what he can really do in the next two, three years after having resurrected the program to respectability after Lickliter's hell.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

To be honest...it was one of those games. At the same time with all the talk of Defense which is important. Our first 2 subs played 27 minutes together and scored 4 points. Throw in Moss & Wagner with 0 between them. We have 58 minutes with 4 total points. If one is going to score 0 or only 2 points you better play some ferocious defense.

Weren't Baer and Ellingson the first two off the bench?

 

[Pepperman]

According to Jok, Wagner has the quickest first step he's ever seen. I wouldn't mind having that outside the paint facing the basket.

That's one of the strangest things I've read here.

 

[ZumaHawk]

Weren't Baer and Ellingson the first two off the bench?

You may be correct...if so my mistake.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

You listed a bunch of stats with no context. It's a poor example if you could even call it one. There is no attempt whatsoever to explain why Edwards did what he did and Bohannon did what he did. Which wouldn't be hard if you watched the game, which you clearly didn't.

I know how to grade out players in a basketball game. Why don't you do is all a favor and break down each player's touches in the game. I'm sorry my example is too vague for you. Your turn. It might take you awhile but you like good examples. Break down each player by touches, through the whole game and we'll decide who played better.

 

[ScoutRefugee]

That's one of the strangest things I've read here.

I'm not so sure. Consider how many players just blow right by Jok when he's pretending to play defense. I'm sure to Jok, they all have a really fast first step. Lol

 

[HeRKeYHoPeFuL]

Why are we moving Cook/Wagner out to the 3 again?

There is discussion around the abundance of 4s. If you're trying to get the most minutes for your best players, you need to find spaces for them and these would be one of the easier moves in most peoples’ opinions that I’ve seen. After Jok, we don’t have anyone that is nearly guaranteed those minutes (Moss is probably closest, but he could easily play the 2 as well). Next year, we would be looking at McCaffery, Bohannon, Williams, Ellingson, Dailey, Moss as guards (am I missing anyone?) against Cook, Pemsl, Uhl, Wagner, Kriener, Garza, Nunge at forward. Barring injuries or redshirts, I would imagine our top starters/backups to be:

Cook/Kriener/Garza
Pemsl/Cook/Uhl/Nunge
Moss/Dailey/(This is where we could get a few extra minutes from a forward)
Ellingson/Bohannon/McCaffery
Bohannon/Williams/McCaffery

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone saying that it is a must, but if they can play solid defense against a guard, Wagner and Cook would be major matchup nightmares if they were playing the 3.

McCaffery has been consistent about looking for versatile players (which perhaps explains the lack of an elite PG – see what I did there to stir up the debate?). Since he views positions as interchangeable for certain skillsets, it would make sense that if a forward has a skillset that translates to play on the perimeter as well that some minutes would be found there.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

Our worst recruiting classes just happened to occur when we had a ton of young talent in the starting lineup. Not a coincidence. Kids want to play right away unless they are going to a blue blood.

 

[DanL53]

That's one of the strangest things I've read here.

On this thread alone there are probably several better examples. I'm not taking anyone off of ignore to find out (that went so well last time) but I suspect somebody is battling the world of HR Hawkeye Fans again with his strange viewpoints drawn like a sword and hurling insults like a Berserker.

Are you just mad at me, still, because we had a disagreement? Let's make up. So, to explain, you want a player facing the basket to have a quick first step. Part of the triple threat of Drive, Dish, or Shoot.

Does that help?

 

[mazda1]

What we haven't learned is how Cook and Pemsl can play defense when they are on the court together. Edwards and Biggie can both step outside offensively and neither of these two defend out there. The two Purdue big's can cause match up problems for most teams It's not a shock that they took two undersized freshman to school. We packed it in during the first half and Purdue killed us from 3.

Jok was absent during the first half and our offense went stagnant because of it. It got ugly early. We will look better going forward and will look ugly again.

What we can and should expect every game is all out effort and when we don't get that on BOTH ends from EVERYONE these losses become more frustrating.

 

[Pepperman]

On this thread alone there are probably several better examples. I'm not taking anyone off of ignore to find out (that went so well last time) but I suspect somebody is battling the world of HR Hawkeye Fans again with his strange viewpoints drawn like a sword and hurling insults like a Berserker.

Are you just mad at me, still, because we had a disagreement? Let's make up. So, to explain, you want a player facing the basket to have a quick first step. Part of the triple threat of Drive, Dish, or Shoot.

Does that help?

I've never thought Wagner is slow, but I've also never thought he could possibly have the "quickest first step" or whatever Jok said. If Wagner really had such a great first step, Fran is doing a terrible job of putting him in a position to use it productively. I would guess you'd agree with my opinion that Fran is not an idiot.