Who is the best collegiate wrestler 2015-2016

[mike tognetti]

As of right now, Blees is staying at 165, Koo is in New York, CM has 157 wrapped up if he takes care of school and the room. If it falls apart look for 149-184 to be in flux, the team could be even better with the moving around of these weight. AD would still be a NC at 174 (walking around weight is a little over 190) and don't count out C Rogers at 165/174/184, he is that good. As for Joe Smith, Papa Bear is right about his RS being pulled if things happen. Joe is going to have a great college career. Could be a whole lot of moving parts on this team, excited to see how it goes.

 

[WPB_lion]

Retherford placed 5th as a Freshman. Neither him nor Megaludis should be mentioned in the same paragraph as Martinez and Dieringer. Hell they shouldn't even have been mentioned with Gwiz.

As a true freshman, Rutherford handed a four timer his only loss in his redshirt junior year. Rutherford absolutely belongs in the discussion.

 

[pablow]

As a true freshman, Rutherford handed a four timer his only loss in his redshirt junior year. Rutherford absolutely belongs in the discussion.

Only tour first post and you've already got HR spelling down. Cogratulationss.

 

[edquinn06]

As a true freshman, Rutherford handed a four timer his only loss in his redshirt junior year. Rutherford absolutely belongs in the discussion.

Wrong. I'm not going to consider him in the discussion til he wins a national title like the other 3 have done(multiple times).

 

[wasdt21]

finally mike something I didn't regret reading

 

[pablow]

finally mike something I didn't regret reading

+1. Five whole sentences without being a smartass. Baby steps.

 

[Azchief32]

Caught him before he had his coffee.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Wrong. I'm not going to consider him in the discussion til he wins a national title like the other 3 have done(multiple times).

As a RS freshman, Ryan Morningstar beat #1-ranked Trent Paulson. Ryan was a great wrestler for the Hawks, but he wasn't ever remotely close to consideration for the Hodge. Retherford (PSU fans should learn to spell their own guys' names -- especially their stars) is a great young wrestler, no doubt, but his lone win over Stieber (who beat him easily thereafter) doesn't amount to much where potential Hodge consideration is concerned. He doesn't have anywhere near the accolades of a guy like Dieringer or Gwiz. Maybe he'll earn them, but at this point, he doesn't belong in the conversation with those guys, not by a long shot.

 

[dicemen99]

As a RS freshman, Ryan Morningstar beat #1-ranked Trent Paulson. Ryan was a great wrestler for the Hawks, but he wasn't ever remotely close to consideration for the Hodge. Retherford (PSU fans should learn to spell their own guys' names -- especially their stars) is a great young wrestler, no doubt, but his lone win over Stieber (who beat him easily thereafter) doesn't amount to much where potential Hodge consideration is concerned. He doesn't have anywhere near the accolades of a guy like Dieringer or Gwiz. Maybe he'll earn them, but at this point, he doesn't belong in the conversation with those guys, not by a long shot.

I am firmly in the camp that this thread is a two horse race with Dieringer comfortably ahead of IMar, but did you just compare Trent Paulson to Logan Stieber in your downplaying of Rutherfurd??

 

[DonHawkeye]

Probably all depends on if the refs are going to let Rutherford use the figure four of one leg ride. I just don't understand why that is not an illegal hold or at least called stalling. It certainly is a torturous ride and takes it out of guys.

 

[Azchief32]

Well Logan was sick...and there were travel issues as well....hehe.

Just saying that as of right now, Zain isn't in the conversation. Yea, he beat Streibler, but didn't they wrestle a few more times? Also, if Zain is in the conversation, then Sorenson should be too. He already finished 4th at 149 as a RS freshman and beat the returning national champion, along with the runner up. This how homeristic it sounds.

Now, Zain could end up on top of the podium. Nobody denies that could happen. But to me, he is a guy that beat Citadel (5-0), Bright (3-0), Lazor (5-2), loss to Logan (3-7), loss to Port (TB-2, 3-1), and got a medical FF to take 5th at the NCAAs. Very solid for a true freshman, but not a run that inspires talk of a Hodge.

 

[wasdt21]

I think nolf will have a better year than ratherford

 

[1stplacehawk]

I agree, Retherford doesn't belong in this conversation. He has proven that he'll be in the title hunt at 149, but not that he is the best wrestler in college wrestling. If he dominates solid competition this year, I'll have no problem adding his name to the list.

 

[pablow]

Probably all depends on if the refs are going to let Rutherford use the figure four of one leg ride. I just don't understand why that is not an illegal hold or at least called stalling. It certainly is a torturous ride and takes it out of guys.

I agree. In his freshman year he did nothing with this ride. Yet, the officials gave him a lot of slack. I guess he's "connected" as these say in the mob movies.

 

[manmythlegend1]

I agree. In his freshman year he did nothing with this ride. Yet, the officials gave him a lot of slack. I guess he's "connected" as these say in the mob movies.

absolutely untrue, nice revisionist history but Zain's punishment of the head is in my opinion far more active and brutal than Sorensen's parallel spiral ride of holding on. You will not agree, and that is ok but that bolded statement really made me laugh...lol

Your right, he obviously is stalling though all his tough matches....lol

 

[pablow]

absolutely untrue, nice revisionist history but Zain's punishment of the head is in my opinion far more active and brutal than Sorensen's parallel spiral ride of holding on. You will not agree, and that is ok but that bolded statement really made me laugh...lol

Your right, he obviously is stalling though all his tough matches....lol

You might do a better job of reading my post before you respond. I was referring to one particular ride he uses. Go reread it.

BTW, just for the record, he's not getting anywhere near back points in any of the photos you posted.

 

[Herkuleez5]

First off let me state that I for one hate watching boring wrestling, it is the main reason I cannot get anyone new to watch the sport and if we don't do that then we will all have nothing to talk about when we are old and gray.

I am NOT calling Retherford out as it happens all over in college wrestling on every team but I hate leg rides in general, IT IS BORING!!! All the pitcures above show me is riding, did he turn any on these opponents, I for one can't remember? I would like to see a stat on the average amount of time a ref lets it go before calling stalemate and also a stat on the percentage of times a leg ride turns into back points. It is mostly a waste of match time. Sure sometimes you have to throw them in when it's a scramble or to gain control but any other time it seems to go nowhere. While I am on the subject, hitting the bottom guy with stalling in these situations is sometimes crap too. Granted they should not be in the situation but we all know that if the guy is tough on top with the legs and has the other guy flattened out it is next to impossible for the bottom guy to move let alone get to a position to get out.

We need guys that are takedown machines and hammers on top that get out to the side and try and turn guys. The problem with that now is that most anything that is an actual attempt at putting some guy on his back is called potentially dangerous before the top guy can even finish the move. Cory Clark does a good job at running arm bars and stuff but it seems like he is always getting whistled for potentially dangerous. What happened top guys peeling wrists out from underneath the bottom guy ala Brands and coming out toward the head and cranking it over, that's probably potentially dangerous now too.

My rant for the day, can you tell I hate leg rides yet?

 

[DonHawkeye]

These are all kinda what I am talking about.

Yes you can work the half there but you will almost never get it, unless the guy just goes over from pain. I just wish they wouldn't let guys scissors/figure four one leg. To me it is essentially a stall/torture ride that is almost impossible to get out of or turn someone in.

Good for him for finding a loophole in the rules.

James English used this to become an All American as well.

 

[dicemen99]

These are all kinda what I am talking about.

Yes you can work the half there but you will almost never get it, unless the guy just goes over from pain. I just wish they wouldn't let guys scissors/figure four one leg. To me it is essentially a stall/torture ride that is almost impossible to get out of or turn someone in.

Good for him for finding a loophole in the rules.

James English used this to become an All American as well.

So what is your take on Sorenson's ride then? Is it better because it is done with a half? It is about as impossible to turn a quality opponent with the Sorenson ride at the D1 level as it is with Retherford's.

Actually, I'll take that back. It's actually more common to turn a quality opponent with Retherford's ride in D1 than Sorenson's. I saw McIntosh turn that into a bow a few times against Top 10 guys last year. I can't recall the last time I saw a quality D1 wrestler turned with forward pressure on a half.

 

[manmythlegend1]

You might do a better job of reading my post before you repond. I was referring to one particular ride he uses. Go reread it.

BTW, just for the record, he's not getting anywhere near back points in any of the photos you posted.

First off let me state that I for one hate watching boring wrestling, it is the main reason I cannot get anyone new to watch the sport and if we don't do that then we will all have nothing to talk about when we are old and gray.

I am NOT calling Retherford out as it happens all over in college wrestling on every team but I hate leg rides in general, IT IS BORING!!! All the pitcures above show me is riding, did he turn any on these opponents, I for one can't remember? I would like to see a stat on the average amount of time a ref lets it go before calling stalemate and also a stat on the percentage of times a leg ride turns into back points. It is mostly a waste of match time. Sure sometimes you have to throw them in when it's a scramble or to gain control but any other time it seems to go nowhere. While I am on the subject, hitting the bottom guy with stalling in these situations is sometimes crap too. Granted they should not be in the situation but we all know that if the guy is tough on top with the legs and has the other guy flattened out it is next to impossible for the bottom guy to move let alone get to a position to get out.

We need guys that are takedown machines and hammers on top that get out to the side and try and turn guys. The problem with that now is that most anything that is an actual attempt at putting some guy on his back is called potentially dangerous before the top guy can even finish the move. Cory Clark does a good job at running arm bars and stuff but it seems like he is always getting whistled for potentially dangerous. What happened top guys peeling wrists out from underneath the bottom guy ala Brands and coming out toward the head and cranking it over, that's probably potentially dangerous now too.

My rant for the day, can you tell I hate leg rides yet?

I respect this opinion, I happen to disagree and don't think physical dominance is boring. I do agree with the fact that it is really hard to get out of when used correctly and therefore becomes slow moving because all the person on the bottom does is try to not get turned (that can definitely be boring to the outsider who never wrestled).

I would say that a spiral ride for 2 minutes is just as boring though.

Bottom line, at this level getting back points is very difficult with any method unless you catch them or are just much better than your opponent.

You are 100% correct about the armbar and how it has been neutered for safety reasons....

So what are we left with....all neutral all the time I guess. to me that would be sad

 

[1stplacehawk]

So what is your take on Sorenson's ride then? Is it better because it is done with a half? It is about as impossible to turn a quality opponent with the Sorenson ride at the D1 level as it is with Retherford's.

Actually, I'll take that back. It's actually more common to turn a quality opponent with Retherford's ride in D1 than Sorenson's. I saw McIntosh turn that into a bow a few times against Top 10 guys last year. I can't recall the last time I saw a quality D1 wrestler turned with forward pressure on a half.

How does Sorensen's ride factor into whether Retherford uses a stall ride? The fact is, Zain won several matches because he sat on top of guys in a figure 4 that pretty much no one got out of. I'd call them both for stalling if you want my honest opinion, but I find it comical that this is the PSU fan's only comeback.

 

[sstark46]

So what is your take on Sorenson's ride then? Is it better because it is done with a half? It is about as impossible to turn a quality opponent with the Sorenson ride at the D1 level as it is with Retherford's.

I don't think anyone here who is against Zain's ride is going to then defend Sorensen's. In fact, I feel like most of us here would like to see Brandon be more active on top. Not sure where you're coming from with this angle - Sorensen's ride doesn't make Zain's any less of a stall ride.

 

[CFNiteHawk85]

I must have missed the "Zain is boring. He should ride more like Sorensen" comment.

 

[Azchief32]

It's the "your guy does it" argument. Guess what Dice, you are correct and several of us noted this last year on HR about Sorensen. Zain's ride is effective, and the refs let him get away with it...so why not keep
it up? Let's not pretend though, that it is anything more than it appears to be.

 

[pablow]

So what is your take on Sorenson's ride then? Is it better because it is done with a half? It is about as impossible to turn a quality opponent with the Sorenson ride at the D1 level as it is with Retherford's.

Actually, I'll take that back. It's actually more common to turn a quality opponent with Retherford's ride in D1 than Sorenson's. I saw McIntosh turn that into a bow a few times against Top 10 guys last year. I can't recall the last time I saw a quality D1 wrestler turned with forward pressure on a half.

Dice, how did Sorensen's ride get into this mix? At any rate, Jason Ness did a whole lot with Sorensen's ride. Unfortunately, Sorensen hasn't yet.

 

[Herkuleez5]

I respect this opinion, I happen to disagree and don't think physical dominance is boring. I do agree with the fact that it is really hard to get out of when used correctly and therefore becomes slow moving because all the person on the bottom does is try to not get turned (that can definitely be boring to the outsider who never wrestled).

I would say that a spiral ride for 2 minutes is just as boring though.

Bottom line, at this level getting back points is very difficult with any method unless you catch them or are just much better than your opponent.

You are 100% correct about the armbar and how it has been neutered for safety reasons....

So what are we left with....all neutral all the time I guess. to me that would be sad

Well I think we going to have to agree and disagree.

I agree that a spiral ride for 2 minutes is boring but if the top guy is physically dominant with it as you say then you should be OK with it right? I for one am not OK with a spiral for 2 minutes or legs in with figure four/scissors. Both of them are stalling rides where the top wrestler never gets away from parallel to his opponent and it sucks whether you are a lifelong fan or a new person to the sport.

I am not going to get into the whole riding time is BS argument but the top guy by rule has to attempt to turn the bottom guy and riding parallel or with legs rarely to never gets it done, it is just a controlling ride to get a point and goes against everything I love about the sport and that is to dominate your opponent.

Let me ask this question.......how many guys make Olympic teams that were defensive or riders that skated by 3-2 all the time?

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I'll happily get into the whole "riding time is BS" argument. . . . RIDING TIME IS BS! There you go.

Best 2 things that could happen to college wrestling:

1. Abolish riding time.
2. Push-out rule.

BOOM! Immediately, you have a far more action-packed sport that rewards aggression and penalizes passivity. Exactly what the sport needs.

 

[DonHawkeye]

I actually think Sorenson's spiral ride and Rutherford's scissor/figure 4 the leg ride are two different animals.

Sorenson runs a text book spiral ride out to the side that gives a person a chance to escape. Where Rutherford's ride is parallel and almost always needs the ref to stop the hold for a guy to get out.

A parallel spiral ride is stalling and should be called. Sorenson is hardly ever parallel for very long before he gets out to the side.

And if an Iowa guy had Rutherford's ride in his bag of trick I would hate watching it just the same, but would enjoy the fact that the refs are not calling it like it probably should be and it is a wicked ride that takes it out of the guy underneath.

 

[wasdt21]

that's why you are the don my thoughts exactly Brandon's ride while boring is out to the side thus not stalling.

 

[manmythlegend1]

that's why you are the don my thoughts exactly Brandon's ride while boring is out to the side thus not stalling.

You guys can remain delusional if you want...he is almost always parallel...If he is truly coming out to the side (perpendicular) why is his hand always on the inner thigh..He would bring it up to the waist or grab the far wrist to turn his opponent with the half nelson. He very rarely if ever does this against an opponent he is not superior to.

Herkuleez25 I agree with a lot of what you said...I would however throw out Dake as a future defensive wiz I think makes noise internationally...of coarse this is yet to be seen so maybe I will be wrong......I would hate to see the mat game whither away which is what would probably happen if they implement pushout and no riding time, but I totally understand that may be the future of college wrestling. To be honest, It would probably help our wrestlers be more prepared for the international style.

 

[Azchief32]

You guys can remain delusional if you want...he is almost always parallel...If he is truly coming out to the side (perpendicular) why is his hand always on the inner thigh..He would bring it up to the waist or grab the far wrist to turn his opponent with the half nelson. He very rarely if ever does this against an opponent he is not superior to.

Herkuleez25 I agree with a lot of what you said...I would however throw out Dake as a future defensive wiz I think makes noise internationally...of coarse this is yet to be seen so maybe I will be wrong......I would hate to see the mat game whither away which is what would probably happen if they implement pushout and no riding time, but I totally understand that may be the future of college wrestling. To be honest, It would probably help our wrestlers be more prepared for the international style.

Maybe because he knows he can't turn his opponent but is just looking to ride him for the point like your boy Zain?

Anyways...let's go to the tape. In Zain's year of wrestling, he won 15 matches with bonus with four pins. Sorensen won 18 matches with bonus to include six pins. Sorensen will win the Hodge...Bank it.

 

[DonHawkeye]

You guys can remain delusional if you want...he is almost always parallel...If he is truly coming out to the side (perpendicular) why is his hand always on the inner thigh..He would bring it up to the waist or grab the far wrist to turn his opponent with the half nelson. He very rarely if ever does this against an opponent he is not superior to.

Herkuleez25 I agree with a lot of what you said...I would however throw out Dake as a future defensive wiz I think makes noise internationally...of coarse this is yet to be seen so maybe I will be wrong......I would hate to see the mat game whither away which is what would probably happen if they implement pushout and no riding time, but I totally understand that may be the future of college wrestling. To be honest, It would probably help our wrestlers be more prepared for the international style.

You are wrong

 

[manmythlegend1]

Maybe because he knows he can't turn his opponent but is just looking to ride him for the point like your boy Zain?

Anyways...let's go to the tape. In Zain's year of wrestling, he won 15 matches with bonus with four pins. Sorensen won 18 matches with bonus to include six pins. Sorensen will win the Hodge...Bank it.

Zain was a true freshman..Sorenson had a reshirt season to get stronger. I Can't wait for this match.. its gonna be fun. To bad we are not having a dual match this season

 

[Knight563]

Did Chief just make a full investment into Sorenson winning the Hodge?! Love the confidence!

 

[Azchief32]

Zain was a true freshman..Sorenson had a reshirt season to get stronger. I Can't wait for this match.. its gonna be fun. To bad we are not having a dual match this season

Wayment...the argument keeps on changing. First, it was who the fav for the Hodge. When Zain is suggested (by Hawk fans no less), there was respectful disagreement. 1)Unproven at 149 2)Not a dominant wrestler...which tied into a discussion about his ride. PSU fans bring up Sorensen who by virtue of bonus, is more dominant than Zain. He also turned and pinned more and finished higher at the weight in question than Zain did at a lower weight. Zain may have been a true freshman, but he was tough enough to beat Streebler and part of Zain's appeal is what he accomplished as a true freshman...as we are reminded by you guys ad nauseum.

BTW, I will repeat that I have no problem with Zain and his ride. Take what they give you. I also think Zain is top notch but nothing he has done tells me he will be the Hodge winner at the end of the year.

 

[Azchief32]

Did Chief just make a full investment into Sorenson winning the Hodge?! Love the confidence!

Haha...nope. Just using the logic that has got us to Zain winning the Hodge. Love Brandon but he has to go out there and prove he is elite...he hasn't done it...yet. Like MML, I can't wait for this match as well. Leave it to the B1G to f*ck it up.

 

[SansSouci]

Being a homer, I'll take Brandon's spiral ride for riding time and no escape. I would want my kid to do the same thing against potentially better opponents. It is conservative, but a win is a win.

Rule changes could eliminate it and that would be great.

Zain is using the same ride my seven y/o uses, legs and power half and waiting for a mistake. It works for tilts against lesser apponents. It's not going to get him points at the D1 level, but at least it's a little offensive. It does give you a chance at posting up and getting him in trouble or at least flattening out and slipping a leg. Nothing wrong with trying for a tilt though, if you can stay behind.

Should leg rides be eliminated, or spirals?

If you can't get out of a leg ride or spiral that's your problem, talking about changing rules for these pussies is just strange.

 

[BDB57]

I don't have the stats but I think Cam Wade used pretty much the same turn as Zain and had in the neighborhood of 30 falls and 15 TFs in his career and most are with the legs in and a power half. Perhaps we should bring back Cam to fine tune Zains turning ability ;-)

 

[Flying_Tiger]

I agree with those that say Zain hasn't proven he belongs in the conversation yet. That being said, he made good use of his redshirt; put on size and has learned how to transition his leg ride into a powerful bow-and-arrow. Considering how dominant he was on top as a true freshman, he is going to be an absolute terror this season.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Being a homer, I'll take Brandon's spiral ride for riding time and no escape. I would want my kid to do the same thing against potentially better opponents. It is conservative, but a win is a win.

Rule changes could eliminate it and that would be great.

Zain is using the same ride my seven y/o uses, legs and power half and waiting for a mistake. It works for tilts against lesser apponents. It's not going to get him points at the D1 level, but at least it's a little offensive. It does give you a chance at posting up and getting him in trouble or at least flattening out and slipping a leg. Nothing wrong with trying for a tilt though, if you can stay behind.

Should leg rides be eliminated, or spirals?

If you can't get out of a leg ride or spiral that's your problem, talking about changing rules for these pussies is just strange.

Couldn't disagree more. The point isn't to "change rules for pussies". The point is to change rules to reward aggression and penalize stalling. I thought that was pretty obvious.