Who started the Russia/Ukraine conflict?

[seminole97]

again, childish view. They hurt my feelings. Nato is not a threat to Russia unless russia attacks.

Did Serbia attack NATO before NATO bombed them and partitioned them?
Did Libya attack NATO before NATO bombed them and helped jihadists overthrow their government?
Post Cold War NATO was an international imprimatur for foreign interventions, not defense of its members.

Former ambassador to Russia (and CIA Director under Biden) wrote to multiple administrations why NATO expansion was a bad idea.

This cable in 2008, released by wikileaks is the most succinct and accurate prediction of what happened after the 2014 coup:

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html

Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touch a raw nerve in Russia, they engender serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only does Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.


The regions of Ukraine that voted 70-80-90%+ for the president that was overthrown by a murderous mob rebelled against the Americans picking their next president. Russia picked up Obama's 'duty to protect' applied as the reasoning to attack the Libyan government help rebel factions in that civil war and applied it to Ukraine.

Catch this CNN report back in 2014?

 

[prlyles]

No, and if he is honest, he also knows that neither he or any US administration would go for that. It has already been proven, because it happened. I think Putin is a terrible person......but to not at least try and understand where that country is coming from is rediculous.

Look, Putin was wrong to invade. But, it did not need to happen. Terrible leadership by Biden kept peace from happening.

So, when did Ukraine receive weapons that could reduce Russia to rubble like Cuba?

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

Did Serbia attack NATO before NATO bombed them and partitioned them?
Did Libya attack NATO before NATO bombed them and helped jihadists overthrow their government?
Post Cold War NATO was an international imprimatur for foreign interventions, not defense of its members.

Former ambassador to Russia (and CIA Director under Biden) wrote to multiple administrations why NATO expansion was a bad idea.

This cable in 2008, released by wikileaks is the most succinct and accurate prediction of what happened after the 2014 coup:

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html

Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touch a raw nerve in Russia, they engender serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region. Not only does Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.


The regions of Ukraine that voted 70-80-90%+ for the president that was overthrown by a murderous mob rebelled against the Americans picking their next president. Russia picked up Obama's 'duty to protect' applied as the reasoning to attack the Libyan government help rebel factions in that civil war and applied it to Ukraine.

Catch this CNN report back in 2014?

View embedded media

Serious revisionist history my man. You leaned well from that shithead Algren.

 

[IACub]

Billy Joel. Billy Joel started the fire.

 

[win4jj]

Billy Joel. Billy Joel started the fire.

Ryan started the fire!!!!!

 

[seminole97]

Serious revisionist history my man. You leaned well from that shithead Algren.

Do you I think I made up that CNN report from 2014 of government attacks on civilians in Donetsk?

Did Serbia attack any NATO members to justify NATO bombing Serbia during their civil war?

Did Libya attack any NATO members to justify NATO bombing Libya during their civil war?

What am I guilty of 'revising'?

 

[TornadoHawk93]

A true MAGA dunce

A yes, 77000+ posts from your basement......and your still proving that you are a liberturd chode. 😂

 

[TornadoHawk93]

Were NATO or their missiles in Ukraine before Russia invaded? Was Ukraine in NATO before the invasion? The answer to both questions is no so that's not a justification for Putin's war.

Where did I say that Putin was justified? I said the war did not have to happen if that idiot Biden would have known how to broker peace. You clearly were not paying attention when all of NATO was wanting to fastrack Ukraines membership.

 

[Hawk_82]

Why do you think that all these countries that lived under Russian leadership chose to go a different path when allowed to choose the path they wanted to go down in the future? Why do you think they chose protection from Russia vs choosing to go back under Russian rule?

They can be separate. That's fine. but it is also unreasonable to think Russia would be OK with US military bases being built on their border.

Mexico wants to join BRICS, Would you be OK with China and Russia having military bases with nukes on the US Mexico border? i don't think that would fly.

Russia was previously promised that nato would not move closer to Russia, but we continued to do so. I don't think Russia is innocent, but I think you have to recognize that nato admitting Ukraine would piss off Russia. Biden and Blinken both talked about this being the plan. so Russia attacked.

 

[TornadoHawk93]

So, when did Ukraine receive weapons that could reduce Russia to rubble like Cuba?

So, it is your contention that NATO membership was not a serious item on the table? Really? LOL!!!

 

[Hawk_82]

Zeleskyy is following his country's constitution. It is illegal to hold national elections in Ukraine during a period of martial law.

From a practical standpoint how do Ukrainian citizens in occupied areas vote.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/20/ukraine-elections-start-of-war-volodymyr-zelenskyy

I think this is the point Trump is making. zelenskyy only has to attack Russia, declare martial law, and then he can be a dictator as long as he wants.

I understand your point, but it is a bs excuse in my opinion. russia managed to have an election in 2024. The usa has had elections during war. Ukraine should too or they will face criticism for being a dictator rather than a democracy.

 

[Tiny Hands Trump]

I think this is the point Trump is making. zelenskyy only has to attack Russia, declare martial law, and then he can be a dictator as long as he wants.

I understand your point, but it is a bs excuse in my opinion. russia managed to have an election in 2024. The usa has had elections during war. Ukraine should too or they will face criticism for being a dictator rather than a democracy.

Uhuh.

 

[Scott559]

I think this is the point Trump is making. zelenskyy only has to attack Russia, declare martial law, and then he can be a dictator as long as he wants.

I understand your point, but it is a bs excuse in my opinion. russia managed to have an election in 2024. The usa has had elections during war. Ukraine should too or they will face criticism for being a dictator rather than a democracy.

Zelensky attacked Russia?

Russia’s elections are predetermined before they take place. Alexi Navalny is a prime example of what happens if you oppose Putin.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

Do you I think I made up that CNN report from 2014 of government attacks on civilians in Donetsk?

Did Serbia attack any NATO members to justify NATO bombing Serbia during their civil war?

Did Libya attack any NATO members to justify NATO bombing Libya during their civil war?

What am I guilty of 'revising'?

My main issue is how you spin and characterize the Maidan. A “murderous mob” did not overthrow the president. He was ousted by the duly elected Ukrainian parliament in a vote of 328-0. Putin apologists tend to rewrite history around Ukraine’s independence and the lead up to the changes that happened post-Maidan.

 

[seminole97]

My main issue is how you spin and characterize the Maidan. A “murderous mob” did not overthrow the president.

He most certainly fled a murderous mob.

https://world.time.com/2014/02/22/ukraines-president-flees-protestors-capture-kiev/

Ukraine’s beleaguered President Viktor Yanukovych fled Kiev Saturday as protestors took full control of Ukraine’s capital, signaling a dramatic turn in the three-month crisis just hours after the signing of an European Union-sponsored peace deal.

As police abandoned their posts across the capital, the opposition established control over key intersections and captured the presidential palace, setting up a perimeter around Yanukovych’s former residence, reports the Associated Press.

He was ousted by the duly elected Ukrainian parliament in a vote of 328-0.

I'm glad you brought that up.
Ukrainian impeachment requires a 3/4 vote for removal.
Not only did they not file articles of impeachment, they didn't reach the constitutional threshold for removal.

If a J6 mob chased Biden out DC, killing police and taking over federal building, and 60 Senators voted to remove Biden from office, would that be a coup, or the normal constitutional order being expressed?

Putin apologists tend to rewrite history around Ukraine’s independence and the lead up to the changes that happened post-Maidan.

I'm not rewriting any history, I'm pointing out the vote total you cited is less than the constitutional threshold to remove the president legally.

 

[CarolinaHawkeye]

Calling you an idiot is an insult to idiots everywhere.

As with most magats, a large in IQ is needed, to just be considered stupid.

 

[RileyHawk]

If a J6 mob chased Biden out DC, killing police and taking over federal building, and 60 Senators voted to remove Biden from office, would that be a coup, or the normal constitutional order being expressed?

Bless your heart. You try so hard. I tend to scroll past your nonsense but this line struck me as particularly foolish - even for you.

I'm not sure if you mistyped Biden's name when you meant Trump or if that's just another of your theorctical spin jobs. Either way it is a great example of your failure.

If you meant Trump the answer is normal constitutional order. If you meant Biden we would need to know what you're making up that he did to be in that position. It could be either.

 

[gohawks50]

Where did I say that Putin was justified? I said the war did not have to happen if that idiot Biden would have known how to broker peace. You clearly were not paying attention when all of NATO was wanting to fastrack Ukraines membership.

Would the war have broken out if NATO had allowed Ukraine to join?

 

[ThorneStockton]

Flash back to Trump's first impeachment. After circling the wagons, the right/GOP/MAGA talking points were how Trump was actually being the most aggressive against Russia, he was the one actually providing lethal rounds and meaningful war fighting equipment. Obama was too big of a pussy. Trump was strong against Russia!

And now, look at them. The ones not trying to rewrite history, are staying silent, cannot contradict the Dear Leader.

Just an amazing hijacking of a major political party. Cult like.

 

[noleclone2]

Amazing results on this poll, actually a hopeful moment? GOP better wake the **** up on Trump and Russia because it may finally get him as obvious as he is now openly cheerleading and supporting them like the Russian asset many have warned him to be…

 

[Bierhalter]

Zelensky, the CIA, Biden and Harris turned down a reasonable settlement and intentionally provoked Russia, by pushing for Ukraine’s eminent acceptance into NATO. Ukraine is Russia’s redline just as Cuba was our redline under President Kennedy. We poured gasoline on a fire.

I think this is going to catch on more if you post it a fourth time.

 

[seminole97]

I think this is going to catch on more if you post it a fourth time.

It's not refutable, so the only 'answer' is to ignore it.

 

[Hans81]

What do HBOT posters believe is the truth?

It was started by China as they told Russia to invade, then when China invades Taiwan it won’t look so brazen. 🥴 Hey…it’s a theory

 

[RileyHawk]

It's not refutable, so the only 'answer' is to ignore it.

It's been refuted. My guess is you either missed it or intentionally skipped it. Either way it helps explain your ignorance on the subject.

 

[Hawkfan_08]

Thank goodness we aren't as dumb as I thought we were.

 

[Sharky1203]

The USA and NATO did for the past 30 years.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

They can be separate. That's fine. but it is also unreasonable to think Russia would be OK with US military bases being built on their border.

Mexico wants to join BRICS, Would you be OK with China and Russia having military bases with nukes on the US Mexico border? i don't think that would fly.

Russia was previously promised that nato would not move closer to Russia, but we continued to do so. I don't think Russia is innocent, but I think you have to recognize that nato admitting Ukraine would piss off Russia. Biden and Blinken both talked about this being the plan. so Russia attacked.

Russia likes to dress their soldiers up as civilians to end around diplomatic agreements rendering them moot.

 

[Jerome Silberman]

The USA and NATO did for the past 30 years.

 

[fredjr82]

What do HBOT posters believe is the truth?

Next time make the votes public so we can ridicule the dummys

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

This is spot on. nato keeps encroaching on Russia and Russia doesn't like it.

Biden and the west were talking about Ukraine joining nato and that prompted Russia to attack.

Complete bullshit. Comrade.

 

[Obviously Oblivious]

Zeleskyy is following his country's constitution. It is illegal to hold national elections in Ukraine during a period of martial law.

From a practical standpoint how do Ukrainian citizens in occupied areas vote.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/20/ukraine-elections-start-of-war-volodymyr-zelenskyy

Ooh well, imagine that. An actual president following a constitution. How quaint. /s

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Perhaps, if Russia wasn't invading everyone

Everyone?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Complete bullshit. Comrade.

I wish my liberal friends would stop sounding like brainwashed FOX viewers. What he said was correct. You shouldn't be arguing that it's bullshit and then name-calling. You should be arguing that the provocation doesn't justify Russia invading Ukraine.

 

[torbee]

I wish my liberal friends would stop sounding like brainwashed FOX viewers. What he said was correct. You shouldn't be arguing that it's bullshit and then name-calling. You should be arguing that the provocation doesn't justify Russia invading Ukraine.

Ukraine’s only “provocation” of Russia is existing as a sovereign nation.

 

[gohawks50]

Next time make the votes public so we can ridicule the dummys

They are public.

 

[seminole97]

Would the war have broken out if NATO had allowed Ukraine to join?

The primary impetus for the war was that prospect.


Former German Chancellor Angela Merkel has justified her efforts to delay Ukraine's bid for NATO membership during her time in office, citing fears that Russia could retaliate, according to excerpts from her upcoming memoir published in German weekly Die Zeit.
…
Merkel also said that only a minority of those in Ukraine supported its push for NATO membership at the time, before concluding she was "convinced" she could not then agree to Ukraine joining the military alliance.

Nevertheless, the German leader said that not offering Ukraine a clear MAP into the military alliance had costs for the country's aspirations and that a broader promise for future membership made at the 2008 summit was a provocation for Putin.

Merkel wrote that it was perceived as a "declaration of war" by the Russian leader, who reportedly told her in another context: "You will not be chancellor forever. And then they (Ukraine and Georgia) will become NATO members. And I want to prevent that."


So if you wanted a war with Russia, there was a clear path, and the neocons unerringly stuck to it.
Here we are.

 

[Odinorske]

The primary impetus for the war was that prospect.


Former German Chancellor Angela Merkel has justified her efforts to delay Ukraine's bid for NATO membership during her time in office, citing fears that Russia could retaliate, according to excerpts from her upcoming memoir published in German weekly Die Zeit.
…
Merkel also said that only a minority of those in Ukraine supported its push for NATO membership at the time, before concluding she was "convinced" she could not then agree to Ukraine joining the military alliance.

Nevertheless, the German leader said that not offering Ukraine a clear MAP into the military alliance had costs for the country's aspirations and that a broader promise for future membership made at the 2008 summit was a provocation for Putin.

Merkel wrote that it was perceived as a "declaration of war" by the Russian leader, who reportedly told her in another context: "You will not be chancellor forever. And then they (Ukraine and Georgia) will become NATO members. And I want to prevent that."


So if you wanted a war with Russia, there was a clear path, and the neocons unerringly stuck to it.
Here we are.

And then Biden and Harris both talked up Ukraine’s admission into NATO. Dumb. Very dumb. It will be interesting to see how much involvement the CIA and the SOS have in this mess. They are Zelensky’s handlers.

 

[scruffyhawk]

It's not refutable, so the only 'answer' is to ignore it.

Russia doesn't get a vote on if Ukraine gets NATO membership as they are not a member.

The Cuban missile crisis was over missles and not membership in a defense organization.

Ukraine desired NATO membership so Russia wouldn't invade with tanks.

Was Ukraine proven correct in their desire that without NATO membership, Russia would not be deterred enough to ultimately send tanks?

Is it morally wrong for NATO to exist at all when Russia rolls tanks into bordering sovereign nations with alarming frequency?

Can any country bordering Russia be blamed for desiring Russia not to send tanks or little green men?

Others can play facts and questions too.

 

[Hammerhead02]

Russia doesn't get a vote on if Ukraine gets NATO membership as they are not a member.

The Cuban missile crisis was over missles and not membership in a defense organization.

Ukraine desired NATO membership so Russia wouldn't invade with tanks.

Was Ukraine proven correct in their desire that without NATO membership, Russia would not be deterred enough to ultimately send tanks?

Is it morally wrong for NATO to exist at all when Russia rolls tanks into bordering sovereign nations with alarming frequency?

Can any country bordering Russia be blamed for desiring Russia not to send tanks or little green men?

Others can play facts and questions too.

Belarus, Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia.

 

[Odinorske]

The CIA’s involvement in the Ukraine started in 2014:

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/cia-ukraine-russia/