Who started the Russia/Ukraine conflict?

[scruffyhawk]

If Russia was capable of self restraint a multitude of treaties, agreements, standing armies, deaths, refugees, etc would be moot.

Why is it so difficult expecting Russia to be a better neighbor?

They are going to have British and French troops guarding Russia's own border because their little green men keep 'jumping the fence.'

 

[scruffyhawk]

The CIA’s involvement in the Ukraine started in 2014:

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/cia-ukraine-russia/

Ukraine isn't Russia. If the CIA was welcomed Russia has no rights to bring an Army.

 

[SI_NYC]

Many would argue that without the post cold war NATO expansion, Russia would not have felt the need to react...

Go read some Russian history. You will find they are expansionists by blood.

 

[scruffyhawk]

Were NATO countries too trusting of Russia to behave and that's why they didn't have defensive budgets high enough?

Does the narrative gather steam they are too dependent on the US military if Russia never was intent on reclaiming past geography?

Those pushing it was good diplomacy by the US to insist more forcefully on increased defense spending and then subsequently ceding Russia a percentage of Ukraine in negotiations are no different than Lucy holding a football for Charlie Brown. The net effect isn't kicking a football, it's to humble Charlie Brown as he falls trying. This was done by one administration in the last 40 years. Not one party, as this isn't as partisan as those who identify as a political party want to proport the core issue.

All the politics related to NATO from both the US and Russia currently proves the NATO mission to be a united front is at it's core more important than all the rabid bots and history buffs posting of a rhetoric painting NATO as the villan.

 

[Hawk-A-Doodle-Doo]

Was it Steve?

It was Steve, wasn't it?!

Ugh......that guy.

Classic Steve.

 

[Odinorske]

Go read some Russian history. You will find they are expansionists by blood.

Russia has been repeatedly invaded from the west during the last 500 years. The invasions come right through the Ukraine area because the ground is flat- perfect for calvary, troops, tanks, and artillery. Russia lost 20 million people during. WWll.

 

[scruffyhawk]

Russia has been repeatedly invaded from the west during the last 500 years. The invasions come right through the Ukraine area because the ground is flat- perfect for calvary, troops, tanks, and artillery. Russia lost 20 million people during. WWll.

Those 20 million Russians died for a noble cause. Many millions who were on the same side, but different fronts considered them brothers in arms.

A Russian who dies standing on Ukrainian plains today does so with no moral equivalency. Today's Russians are a plague on their very neighbors.

 

[seminole97]

Russia doesn't get a vote on if Ukraine gets NATO membership as they are not a member.

Merkel, Burns, and so many others understood the form that Russia's 'vote' would take.
Are you still naïve to it?

The Cuban missile crisis was over missles and not membership in a defense organization.

NATO has been used more often to attack countries that haven't attacked it than they are to have engaged in defense.

Russia recognizes the reality that if Ukraine is a member of NATO there could nuclear missiles and bombers placed on their border, and at that point they'd have to take on all of NATO to prevent it. So they act when it's clear what is coming, before it fully manifests.
That's what Merkel is trying to explain to you.

Ukraine desired NATO membership so Russia wouldn't invade with tanks.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10444

Was Ukraine proven correct in their desire that without NATO membership, Russia would not be deterred enough to ultimately send tanks?

In 2010, during the premiership of Viktor Yanukovych, the Ukrainian parliament voted to abandon the goal of NATO membership and re-affirm Ukraine's neutral status

Guess who got chased out of power in a U.S. orchestrated coup?

Is it morally wrong for NATO to exist at all when Russia rolls tanks into bordering sovereign nations with alarming frequency?

Of course not. When you say 'Russia rolls tanks into bordering sovereign nations', can you tell me how many they've invaded since 1991?

What is morally wrong is to use NATO to attack countries that haven't attacked NATO.
I think it is morally wrong to repurpose NATO to intervene in foreign civil wars, but that's exactly what has been done with it since the Soviet Union disappeared as a threat, and why Russia doesn't want it on their border.
They're already fought two bloody wars against separatists.
They don't want NATO on their border to much more readily intervene (overtly or covertly) in something like that.
You can grasp that perspective right? Put yourself in their shoes and acknowledge it's an indisputably strategically worse position for them to be in if there are American bases on their border?

Can any country bordering Russia be blamed for desiring Russia not to send tanks or little green men?
Others can play facts and questions too.

Always happy to discuss the facts answer questions.
I entirely understand why people previously conquered by the Soviets or Russians would want to have large allies. Cuba didn't welcome Soviet bombers without a memory of U.S. interventions in Cuba.
To conclude that crisis (that existed entirely in the threat, not any actual action), the larger powers saw fit to reduce the threat they posed to each other. I dare say it saved millions of lives.

 

[Hawksfinal4]

You think Merica is going to be here in 50 years, love your optimism

 

[SI_NYC]

Russia has been repeatedly invaded from the west during the last 500 years. The invasions come right through the Ukraine area because the ground is flat- perfect for calvary, troops, tanks, and artillery. Russia lost 20 million people during. WWll.

Russia has been repeatedly invaded from the west during the last 500 years. The invasions come right through the Ukraine area because the ground is flat- perfect for calvary, troops, tanks, and artillery. Russia lost 20 million people during. WWll.

Repeatedly? That a bit of a stretch. Napoleon and Hitler who like Russia, we’re also expansionists. Now go and see how many territories Russia has invaded.

 

[MichaelKeller99]

Repeatedly? That a bit of a stretch. Napoleon and Hitler who like Russia, we’re also expansionists. Now go and see how many territories Russia has invaded.

Then see how many countries the US has invaded, destroyed and/or occupied. Hypocrisy personified.

 

[Tenacious E]

What do HBOT posters believe is the truth?

For those voting the Ukraine started the war I am confident that you would also blame a woman for being raped on a date because she dressed too sexy or ordered the most expensive thing on the menu.

 

[funksouljon]

https://www.cato.org/commentary/folly-nato-enlargement?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI94vJ0czSiwMVqln_AR00wCGMEAAYASAAEgIDz_D_BwE

Sure, what can point to a small sample of time, but....

This actually seems to be a Kiev vs. Moscow conflict dating back to the dark ages. Sort of like Moslems vs. Non-moslems.

Larger picture, Russia invaded over and over throughout time, so which expansion do we consider as the most applicable to the discussion? The 1500s? The 1600s? The 1700s? Or the Rise of the Soviet Union?

Ukraine’s only “provocation” of Russia is existing as a sovereign nation.

But ultimately, after the Soviet Union fell, the forced-in countries turned their backs on the Soviet Union and Russia/Putin don't like it. They long for "the good old days" just like Trump and the 1950s.

So blaming anyone but Russia is silly.

 

[gohawks50]

For those voting the Ukraine started the war I am confident that you would also blame a woman for being raped on a date because she dressed too sexy or ordered the most expensive thing on the menu.

Some of them would blame them for considering dressing sexy. Many think Russia was justified because Ukraine wanted to join NATO.

 

[thewop]

Putin MIGHT have been elected once...but dictator is the most correct answer. A couple kids will try to argue with the teacher when the test is graded.

 

[Osprey Lion]

Many would argue that without the post cold war NATO expansion, Russia would not have felt the need to react...

The "many" are brainwashed MAGA nuts most of whom hated and/or feared Russia until Trump embraced Putin's gonads.

 

[RileyHawk]

Merkel, Burns, and so many others understood the form that Russia's 'vote' would take.
Are you still naïve to it?



NATO has been used more often to attack countries that haven't attacked it than they are to have engaged in defense.

Russia recognizes the reality that if Ukraine is a member of NATO there could nuclear missiles and bombers placed on their border, and at that point they'd have to take on all of NATO to prevent it. So they act when it's clear what is coming, before it fully manifests.
That's what Merkel is trying to explain to you.



https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10444

In 2010, during the premiership of Viktor Yanukovych, the Ukrainian parliament voted to abandon the goal of NATO membership and re-affirm Ukraine's neutral status

Guess who got chased out of power in a U.S. orchestrated coup?



Of course not. When you say 'Russia rolls tanks into bordering sovereign nations', can you tell me how many they've invaded since 1991?

What is morally wrong is to use NATO to attack countries that haven't attacked NATO.
I think it is morally wrong to repurpose NATO to intervene in foreign civil wars, but that's exactly what has been done with it since the Soviet Union disappeared as a threat, and why Russia doesn't want it on their border.
They're already fought two bloody wars against separatists.
They don't want NATO on their border to much more readily intervene (overtly or covertly) in something like that.
You can grasp that perspective right? Put yourself in their shoes and acknowledge it's an indisputably strategically worse position for them to be in if there are American bases on their border?


Always happy to discuss the facts answer questions.
I entirely understand why people previously conquered by the Soviets or Russians would want to have large allies. Cuba didn't welcome Soviet bombers without a memory of U.S. interventions in Cuba.
To conclude that crisis (that existed entirely in the threat, not any actual action), the larger powers saw fit to reduce the threat they posed to each other. I dare say it saved millions of lives.

No one posts more propaganda nonsense than you.

 

[Tenacious E]

The "many" are brainwashed MAGA nuts most of whom hated and/or feared Russia until Trump embraced Putin's gonads.

Looking at who voted for Ukraine starting it are no surprise because they are among the handful of people I have on ignore.*

*edited because what would Jesus do voted that way? Hilarious.

 

[Tenacious E]

The primary impetus for the war was that prospect.


Former German Chancellor Angela Merkel has justified her efforts to delay Ukraine's bid for NATO membership during her time in office, citing fears that Russia could retaliate, according to excerpts from her upcoming memoir published in German weekly Die Zeit.
…
Merkel also said that only a minority of those in Ukraine supported its push for NATO membership at the time, before concluding she was "convinced" she could not then agree to Ukraine joining the military alliance.

Nevertheless, the German leader said that not offering Ukraine a clear MAP into the military alliance had costs for the country's aspirations and that a broader promise for future membership made at the 2008 summit was a provocation for Putin.

Merkel wrote that it was perceived as a "declaration of war" by the Russian leader, who reportedly told her in another context: "You will not be chancellor forever. And then they (Ukraine and Georgia) will become NATO members. And I want to prevent that."


So if you wanted a war with Russia, there was a clear path, and the neocons unerringly stuck to it.
Here we are.

The primary impetus was Russia wanted eastern Ukraine for a land bridge to crimea and its natural resources. The end.

 

[funksouljon]

The primary impetus was Russia wanted eastern Ukraine for a land bridge to crimea and its natural resources. The end.

Feels a lot like when a girl turns away from a guy, and he just can't accept it. "BUT WE HAD GOOD TIMES ONCE!"

 

[fredjr82]

They are public.

Yep. My bad.

@What Would Jesus Do?

WTF on that vote?!?!

 

[Tenacious E]

Feels a lot like when a girl turns away from a guy, and he just can't accept it. "BUT WE HAD GOOD TIMES ONCE!"

What is amazing to me is that republican war hero senator john McCain described exactly what was going on and what Putin was going to do but today’s gop is too f$cking dumb to understand it.

 

[seminole97]

The primary impetus was Russia wanted eastern Ukraine for a land bridge to crimea and its natural resources. The end.

Then why did Merkel say what she said?

 

[Bearhawk0505]

If anything, this poll clearly identifies the dumbest %10 of posters on here.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Many would argue that without the post cold war NATO expansion, Russia would not have felt the need to react...

“Many” are dumb as a box of hair. “They” argue a whole lot of stupid shit. “They” voted for Trump three times.

 

[Rifler]

Go read some Russian history. You will find they are expansionists by blood.

Very familiar with Russian history and that is quite true,.. Politically, they have also tended to suffer from a long history of self doubt and imagined persecution by the west...

 

[tarheelbybirth]

What do you think about zelenskyy? He canceled the elections and stayed in power. how is this a democracy?

What would you say if Trump did this? Do you find it concerning that he canceled the election?

They’re under martial law. They’re at war, you know. How would you propose they hold elections when millions are refugees in other countries, millions more have been displaced within the country, a significant portion of the country is held by murderers, major cities are being attacked daily…

What’s your plan, comrade?

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

Larger picture, Russia invaded over and over throughout time, so which expansion do we consider as the most applicable to the discussion? The 1500s? The 1600s? The 1700s? Or the Rise of the Soviet Union?

All of them (or none of them). Ie. It’s not our fight.

 

[seminole97]

“Many” are dumb as a box of hair. “They” argue a whole lot of stupid shit. “They” voted for Trump three times.

Yeah, because Angela Merkel, William Burns, William Perry, Sam Nunn, etc. are just a bunch of dummies?
Never mind they accurately predicted where this course would lead. We should ignore them in favor of the people who orchestrated a coup to ensure NATO expansion when the Ukrainian electorate had rejected it.

 

[MichaelKeller99]

The primary impetus was Russia wanted eastern Ukraine for a land bridge to crimea and its natural resources. The end.

And Russia was what; blissfully unaware of Crimea's abundance of natural resources and its geographical significance until February of 2022?

The Crimean electorate and parliament both overwhelmingly voted for annexation, but the globalist neocons dismissed both as being 'fraudulent'.

On the bright side, at least Ukraine allowed voting back in 2014. The people no longer are allowed such basic rights.

 

[seminole97]

They’re under martial law. They’re at war, you know. How would you propose they hold elections when millions are refugees in other countries, millions more have been displaced within the country, a significant portion of the country is held by murderers, major cities are being attacked daily…

What’s your plan, comrade?

Zelensky already said last year that there would have to be a referendum to approve any peace deal.

Do you just ignore that Zelensky was calling for a vote before Trump was back in office?

 

[RileyHawk]

Yeah, because Angela Merkel, William Burns, William Perry, Sam Nunn, etc. are just a bunch of dummies?
Never mind they accurately predicted where this course would lead. We should ignore them in favor of the people who orchestrated a coup to ensure NATO expansion when the Ukrainian electorate had rejected it.

No they didn't. They talked about inciting aggression from Russia if Ukraine joined NATO. Russia invaded just at the hint of it. If they had been accepted into NATO in 2008, say, it's highly unlikely they take the steps they have. Facing full on NATO response would risk wiping out Russia and even Putin is not that crazy.

 

[RileyHawk]

Zelensky already said last year that there would have to be a referendum to approve any peace deal.

Do you just ignore that Zelensky was calling for a vote before Trump was back in office?

Do you ignore that a peace referendum is far, far different than a leadership vote? JFC

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

For those voting the Ukraine started the war I am confident that you would also blame a woman for being raped on a date because she dressed too sexy or ordered the most expensive thing on the menu.

They cheer on the ex boyfriend who kills his ex after a judge refused a restraining order despite the boyfriend’s violent threats.

 

[tarheelbybirth]

Zelensky already said last year that there would have to be a referendum to approve any peace deal.

Do you just ignore that Zelensky was calling for a vote before Trump was back in office?

Damn you are dumb. It’s mind-bottling. You think Zelensky was talking about a vote while war raged in the country? Of course, in your world it hardly matters since you’re fully on board with Ukraine’s future being determined solely by Trump and Putin with nary a Ukrainian in sight.

 

[MichaelKeller99]

What is amazing to me is that republican war hero senator john McCain described exactly what was going on and what Putin was going to do but today’s gop is too f$cking dumb to understand it.

View embedded media

You spelled war criminal wrong.

How many bombs and how much napalm did Johnny Soldier Boy drop on innocent Vietnamese civilians, who posed ZERO threat to our country?

How many hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis perished during and in the aftermath of the unconstitutional invasion and occupation of their country that he wholeheartedly supported?

To hear him lament the loss of life at the hands of Putin is laughable.

'War hero'. 🤑

 

[RileyHawk]

You spelled war criminal wrong.

How many bombs and how much napalm did Johnny Soldier Boy drop on innocent Vietnamese civilians, who posed ZERO threat to our country?

How many hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis perished during and in the aftermath of the unconstitutional invasion and occupation of their country that he wholeheartedly supported?

To hear him lament the loss of life at the hands of Putin is laughable.

'War hero'. 🤑

Your misinformation extends to a wide variety of topics, I see.

John McCain dropped general purpose bombs and high explosive bombs on infrastructure targets.

He was a hero because he spent 5 years in a POW camp and refused to give information to the enemy despite torture, solitary confinement and other physical and psychological efforts to get him to break. He even refused early release because his father was an Admiral, instead he insisted the military code of conduct be followed where prisoners are released in the order of their capture.

You're despicable.

 

[Hawk_82]

They’re under martial law. They’re at war, you know. How would you propose they hold elections when millions are refugees in other countries, millions more have been displaced within the country, a significant portion of the country is held by murderers, major cities are being attacked daily…

What’s your plan, comrade?

That's why I never supported this war to begin with. it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Go to war > declare martial law > get to be president as long as you want.

This is like defending Hitler because there is no way anyone could replace him because he was at war, which he started.

Zelenskyy had a chance to sign a peace treaty to prevent war. He chose not to sign because the west reassured him they have his back during this proxy war.

It's a stupid war, Ukraine will have to give up land and agree not to join nato for it to be over. I will not consider Ukraine to be a democracy until they have another election.

 

[RileyHawk]

That's why I never supported this war to begin with. it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Go to war > declare martial law > get to be president as long as you want.

This is like defending Hitler because there is no way anyone could replace him because he was at war, which he started.

Zelenskyy had a chance to sign a peace treaty to prevent war. He chose not to sign because the west reassured him they have his back during this proxy war.

It's a stupid war, Ukraine will have to give up land and agree not to join nato for it to be over. I will not consider Ukraine to be a democracy until they have another election.

Ukraine did not "go to war". They were invaded. JFC

 

[gohawks50]

Zelenskyy had a chance to sign a peace treaty to prevent war. He chose not to sign because the west reassured him they have his back during this proxy war.

What were the terms of this "peace treaty"?