Why do believers go to doctors?

[longliveCS40]

Attention LongLiveCS40

Christians believe when a 2 week old baby dies that
God in his mercy and love will do what is best for
that child's soul.

I do appreciate you replying, Lutehawk. I know I'm being rather snarky and purposely obtuse but I do like hearing the thoughts of a true believer.

That said, at what age does it change from "God will have mercy and admit a person to heaven" to You were not a believer so you go to hell?

Does that mean there's wiggle room? Could I be a non-believer but God decide since I was such a cool cat and posted some sweet threads on HROT that I get through the gates?

 

[TexMichFan]

if you consider both outcomes a win, and christians also believing the idea of heaven being this peaceful utopia then that should be enough comfort to know that if the outcome isn't that the loved one will make it out alive that they will be at peace in the environment know as heaven. Otherwise if the plan is that the person passes, wont god be disappointed that you didn't trust in his plan?

I don't know about you but I miss my family members who have died. It made me sad. Pray helped me thru those times and that is enough for me.

The question I have is why does it bother people so much how we handle death of a loved one? Do what ever you feel is best for you I am not going to question you on your methods.

 

[MplsHawk]

I don't see this logic working for the type of all powerful super God concept most embrace in this country. It might work for a less powerful pagan like God.

I assume you are mocking, which is fine, but why would the logic not work for an all powerful God?

 

[QChawks]

God loves you even if you don't believe.

 

[herecomethehawkeyes]

Does that mean there's wiggle room? Could I be a non-believer but God decide since I was such a cool cat and posted some sweet threads on HROT that I get through the gates?

I had a debate with a former coworker who became uber religious a while ago. He told me that a non believer who has lived a life that would be worthy of being admitted into heaven would be denied access and would spend eternity suffering in hell, while a career criminal/rapist type of person who accepted god on his deathbed would be admitted into heaven.

I told him have fun rubbing elbows with murders and rapists in heaven, and that i would likely prefer the company in hell if it actually existed

 

[UthoffFan]

I think so.

Hmmmmm....that sounds more like my uncle or the kind old guy that lives down the street rather than a supreme being.

 

[longliveCS40]

God loves you even if you don't believe.

Then why is he not going to let me into heaven? He's going to send me to hell. That doesn't seem loving.

 

[UthoffFan]

I don't know about you but I miss my family members who have died. It made me sad. Pray helped me thru those times and that is enough for me.

The question I have is why does it bother people so much how we handle death of a loved one? Do what ever you feel is best for you I am not going to question you on your methods.

Because people then use those ideas of "faith" outside the realm of death and comforting to do things like deny civil rights to other people.

 

[QChawks]

Then why is he not going to let me into heaven? He's going to send me to hell. That doesn't seem loving.

There is only thing a person needs to do...simply believe. Being good isn't the answer. Heck that's why he forgives our mistakes. Just believe my friend.

 

[longliveCS40]

There is only thing a person needs to do...simply believe. Being good isn't the answer. Heck that's why he forgives our mistakes. Just believe my friend.

But you said he loves me even if I don't believe. I'm asking you how he loves me if he casts me down to hell...

 

[UthoffFan]

There is only thing a person needs to do...simply believe. Being good isn't the answer. Heck that's why he forgives our mistakes. Just believe my friend.

So Adolf Hitler, a devout believer, is currently residing in Heaven?

 

[MplsHawk]

Hmmmmm....that sounds more like my uncle or the kind old guy that lives down the street rather than a supreme being.

I assume that your uncle and the kind old guy that live down the street aren't all powerful, but I can see where it might seem that way to you.

 

[QChawks]

But you said he loves me even if I don't believe. I'm asking you how he loves me if he casts me down to hell...

Come on man you've been to enough football games. It's simple. John 3:16.

 

[herecomethehawkeyes]

The question I have is why does it bother people so much how we handle death of a loved one? Do what ever you feel is best for you I am not going to question you on your methods.

I am just trying to figure out the logic around this whole thing. there seems to be rational discussion for the most part in this thread. It is one question i have posed a few times in various forums and nobody really has addressed it. it seems weird that if you have this belief that god has a plan, and that god is this almighty being that has control over everything that one would want to try to alter the plans of that almighty being

 

[naturalmwa]

I assume you are mocking, which is fine, but why would the logic not work for an all powerful God?

I wasn't mocking. I was pointing out a logical problem with the way Yahweh is portrayed commonly as all knowing and all powerful. In that super God paradigm God is responsible for every event. No wind blows that he didn't create and direct and want to blow. Scholars point to free will as a reason why God isn't responsible for bad actions by people. But events like an illness are entirely at the purview of a super God. Total power means total responsibility. No one gets sick without his OK. It's not a problem the faith can't correct. There is plenty of evidence in the Bible that God isn't actually this super hero he is billed as. But if you insist on God being without limits and total love, illness or any bad event becomes a big problem.

 

[longliveCS40]

Come on man you've been to enough football games. It's simple. John 3:16.

So you're saying that giving someone a chance is loving them...even if you have the ability to save them regardless?

So it's conditionally love. Again, that doesn't seem like true love to me.

 

[UthoffFan]

I assume that your uncle and the kind old guy that live down the street aren't all powerful, but I can see where it might seem that way to you.

If someone/thing is "all powerful" then how is it logically possible that anything can happen that they don't want to have happen?

 

[QChawks]

So you're saying that giving someone a chance is loving them...even if you have the ability to save them regardless?

So it's conditionally love. Again, that doesn't seem like true love to me.

You are over thinking it. Being Christian isn't rocket science with difficult tests to pass. At the foundation is love and faith. One cannot truly be Christian without these.

 

[longliveCS40]

You are over thinking it. Being Christian isn't rocket science with difficult tests to pass. At the foundation is love and faith. One cannot truly be Christian without these.

I'd counter that you're underthinking it.

Do you rely on such faith in other aspects of your life or do you investigate and think about why things happened?

 

[naturalmwa]

So Adolf Hitler, a devout believer, is currently residing in Heaven?

He committed suicide, so that's why he is in hell. Burning people is all part of the grand plan in that religion.

 

[MplsHawk]

If someone/thing is "all powerful" then how is it logically possible that anything can happen that they don't want to have happen?

Just read my prior response to you, and it was not worded very well. I hope it didn't sound flippant, as that wasn't my intention. I don't have the answers, but as I see it not wanting something to happen and exercising power to prevent it from happening are two different things.

 

[MplsHawk]

I wasn't mocking. I was pointing out a logical problem with the way Yahweh is portrayed commonly as all knowing and all powerful. In that super God paradigm God is responsible for every event. No wind blows that he didn't create and direct and want to blow. Scholars point to free will as a reason why God isn't responsible for bad actions by people. But events like an illness are entirely at the purview of a super God. Total power means total responsibility. No one gets sick without his OK. It's not a problem the faith can't correct. There is plenty of evidence in the Bible that God isn't actually this super hero he is billed as. But if you insist on God being without limits and total love, illness or any bad event becomes a big problem.

I personally don't think all knowing and all powerful means responsible for every event. Powerful enough to control every last detail of every event should He wish? Certainly, but that doesn't mean an all powerful God has to exercise that much control or wouldn't have good reason not to.

 

[longliveCS40]

I personally don't think all knowing and all powerful means responsible for every event. Powerful enough to control every last detail of every event should He wish? Certainly, but that doesn't mean an all powerful God has to exercise that much control or wouldn't have good reason not to.

This runs counter to what I've been told in this thread that God loves everyone.

Or I guess you're saying he loves some people more than others so he makes time to intervene for them? Or perhaps it's random and he has the ability to change anything but sometimes he's taking a nap?

 

[UthoffFan]

I don't have the answers, but as I see it not wanting something to happen and exercising power to prevent it from happening are two different things.

So basically, he's just a dick.

Got it.

 

[MplsHawk]

This runs counter to what I've been told in this thread that God loves everyone.

Or I guess you're saying he loves some people more than others so he makes time to intervene for them? Or perhaps it's random and he has the ability to change anything but sometimes he's taking a nap?

It doesn't run counter to the notion of God loving everyone, and I am not saying anything of the sort with your other two comments.

 

[MplsHawk]

So basically, he's just a dick.

Got it.

I suspect you would think you got it no matter what I tried to say, so I'll let that be.

 

[UthoffFan]

It doesn't run counter to the notion of God loving everyone,...

It certainly does if he has the power to prevent bad things from happening to people and he simply chooses not to.

 

[UthoffFan]

I suspect you would think you got it no matter what I tried to say, so I'll let that be.

Of course you will, since there's no way for you to intelligently refute it.

 

[MplsHawk]

Of course you will, since there's no way for you to intelligently refute it.

There is no way to intelligently refute your well reasoned assertion that God is a dick? The reality is that you wouldn't be open to discussing it intelligently, and I have no desire to argue with anyone on the topic, so I won't. Crown yourself debate champion if you like.

 

[naturalmwa]

I personally don't think all knowing and all powerful means responsible for every event. Powerful enough to control every last detail of every event should He wish? Certainly, but that doesn't mean an all powerful God has to exercise that much control or wouldn't have good reason not to.

I disagree obviously. Let me see if I can convince you. How do you assign responsibility if not by creation and awareness of a thing? If God created a system, event, or a life form without free will like a virus and is aware of how that thing will act, it either wanted it to act as it designed it or it was forced to design it that way against its will. If the latter, it isn't a super God. If the former, every event is by its will which means it wanted the out come. It's the Spider-Man problem. You can't give God ultimate power with out assigning him ultimate responsibility.

 

[UthoffFan]

There is no way to intelligently refute your well reasoned assertion that God is a dick? The reality is that you wouldn't be open to discussing it intelligently, and I have no desire to argue with anyone on the topic, so I won't. Crown yourself debate champion if you like.

Ok, let's try it another way:

if I had the ability to prevent something bad from happening to someone, with absolutely no exertion or effort required on my part to do it, and with no potential negative consequences to me, my family, or anyone else, and I simply chose to do nothing and let the innocent person be victimized anyway, just how would you describe me and my behavior in that situation?

Apparently, the answer is "God-like."

 

[UthoffFan]

I disagree obviously. Let me see if I can convince you. How do you assign responsibility if not by creation and awareness of a thing? If God created a system, event, or a life form without free will like a virus and is aware of how that thing will act, it either wanted it to act as it designed it or it was forced to design it that way against its will. If the latter, it isn't a super God. If the former, every event is by its will which means it wanted the out come. It's the Spider-Man problem. You can't give God ultimate power with out assigning him ultimate responsibility.

He's not smart enough to have this conversation, obviously.

You're better off talking to Lute.

 

[theIowaHawk]

As a Christian, I don't understand why the first impulse is to attack people with questions, even if you think they aren't being serious. Our silliness is the reason so many people don't believe anymore. We just assume people don't want to obey God without taking a look in the mirror. How many of us believe simply because we're afraid of death? How many of us believe just so we can tell somebody else they're wrong?

Wait, you think it was a serious question?

 

[naturalmwa]

He's not smart enough to have this conversation, obviously.

You're better off talking to Lute.

I disagree. My experience with him proves the opposite and I bet he will reply with something worthy of consideration. There are two ways of talking about religion. There is the barb for barb fencing style which is fun, but meaningless. And there is the philosophical approach which is difficult but interesting I think. Mpls is more prone to respond to the latter I suspect.

 

[naturalmwa]

Wait, you think it was a serious question?

I think it's a pretty important question that cuts right to the heart of many faith based issues.

 

[2facedboonefan]

Wait, you think it was a serious question?

Even if it's not, do you feel like you're doing God's work by your reaction?

I don't mean to single you out, by the way. We all fail at this.

 

[theIowaHawk]

I think it's a pretty important question that cuts right to the heart of many faith based issues.

Seriously? Why "believers" go to doctors? In reading your posts you go much too far in trying to ascribe beliefs that don't really exist. I don't think, in general, people believe that god controls the minutia in their life like this healthiness/injuries, which is why there is a belief in free will.

It would be more akin to a person building an ant farm and then watching it, not a computer program that has specifically coded every aspect. We are already at the point of creating AI that can do random, non-specifically-coded things that are "beyond our control", I don't know why you believe the same can't be said of some sort of religious supreme being.

Putting it plainly, it is surprisingly ignorant to pretend to have an epiphany that all religious people must be idiots to go to a doctor while believing in a god. Especially when most people on this site should know that there were/are religions that don't believe in medical care for that very reason. That doesn't mean they are some sort of true believers vs. everyone else just pretending.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Even if it's not, do you feel like you're doing God's work by your reaction?

I don't mean to single you out, by the way. We all fail at this.

Why would I be doing god's work? Are you thinking I'm the religious on this board? One needn't be a self-proclaimed theist in order to understand other people's beliefs and faith structures. The opposite is true, even though I understand atheism/agnosticism/non-theism/whatever has become the hip, "I'm smarter than you" mantra of the last few years, you don't have to pretend to have epiphanies all the time to support your own belief of non-believing.

Seriously, the brightest theologians, philosophers, scientists, etc. in our history all confronted the question of religion and various gods as supreme beings, if you think you have uncovered some secret to understanding or mind-blowing gotcha you are a self-aggrandizing idiot.

 

[longliveCS40]

Seriously? Why "believers" go to doctors? In reading your posts you go much too far in trying to ascribe beliefs that don't really exist. I don't think, in general, people believe that god controls the minutia in their life like this healthiness/injuries, which is why there is a belief in free will.

It would be more akin to a person building an ant farm and then watching it, not a computer program that has specifically coded every aspect. We are already at the point of creating AI that can do random, non-specifically-coded things that are "beyond our control", I don't know why you believe the same can't be said of some sort of religious supreme being.

Putting it plainly, it is surprisingly ignorant to pretend to have an epiphany that all religious people must be idiots to go to a doctor while believing in a god. Especially when most people on this site should know that there were/are religions that don't believe in medical care for that very reason. That doesn't mean they are some sort of true believers vs. everyone else just pretending.

Why, then, do I see all these people thanking God that they're cured of cancer, won a marathon, didn't die in a bus crash like the other people?

Are they wrong to attribute their good fortune to God?

 

[theIowaHawk]

I had a debate with a former coworker who became uber religious a while ago. He told me that a non believer who has lived a life that would be worthy of being admitted into heaven would be denied access and would spend eternity suffering in hell, while a career criminal/rapist type of person who accepted god on his deathbed would be admitted into heaven.

I told him have fun rubbing elbows with murders and rapists in heaven, and that i would likely prefer the company in hell if it actually existed

What a great burn, you really got him, I'll bet even now he is under the covers trembling concerned about this.

Is this thread really pretending that all religions, or even all Christian sects agree on a form of afterlife and how one gets there? It is a main contentious issue amongst the various churches.