You have to win a championship to be considered the goat?

[WSC72]

Here is the thing, to be THE GOAT, that means top overall EVER.
Taking Iowa to Final 4 is equal to winning 1 championship at UCON or Tenn back in the day.
However, some of people in conversation have 3+ titles.
To be the CLEAR winner, something more is needed.
Right now, CC is having the conversation, but hopefully by Sunday, she has the Crown.

I disagree that taking Iowa to the final 4 is equivalent to a championship won at another school. But life is full of opinions, variety is the spice of life, all that crap.

 

[Hans81]

You have to be the greatest player of all time to be considered the GOAT. CC is not the greatest player in the world today. So how is she the greatest of all-time?

Stop wrecklesslly throwing around a term that is meant for the most selective of usage. There are a lot of WNBA players taking offense to everyone calling CC the GOAT, and they're going to try to make her life hell for it. It could even backfire Friday. Teams like UCONN, coaches like Auriemma, and players like Bueckers don't need extra motivation to be scary. You can bet all of the GOAT crowning for CC will have UCONN at peak motivation.

If you only mean that CC is the GOAT of women's college basketball, then make that distinction and call her the college GOAT. Because this isn't implied when calling someone the greatest player of all time.

There are certainly other candidates for the college GOAT. And most of them have at least one championship. And those championships give them a strong foothold in the GOAT conversation. It's not so much that CC doesn't have a title, but moreso that some of the other greats do have one or more titles, and those titles can never be diminished.

Basketball is a team sport. The number one objective for any player is that their team wins a championship. At this point CC has no championship. So is she being crowned the GOAT based on stats alone? Yes, it's more impressive for CC to have gotten Iowa to two straight final fours, than it would have been if she had done the same thing playing for UCONN. But her stats wouldn't have been as impressive if she had played for UCONN or any team in which her teammates were more talented. Likewise, the greats that have won championships for teams like UCONN would have had stats closer to CC's had they played on lesser teams.

Also, CC is considered greater than she would have been by having taken her team to two straight final fours. Would people be calling her the GOAT if she played on a losing team? I doubt it. Team success does matter when evaluating an individual's level of greatness.

In the end, what's silly is the over individualization that's occurring in team sports. In a team sport it really doesn't matter who the greatest player of all time is. Would CC rather win a championship or be called the GOAT? I can guarantee you what happens to be the answer to that question.

All that being said, Iowa is making a hell of a run, and CC's greatness is undeniable. Although not a perfect team, Iowa's greatness is also undeniable, and it just may be good enough to win the whole thing. Hopefully they continue to play their best ball

What’s not really brought up in all this GOAT and championship talk is…what if Iowa’s game vs South Carolina last year was in the championship vs the Final 4 semi-final? Caitlin and Iowa are the only team to beat SC in the last 2 years, so just because Iowa’s victory over SC was one game b4 the championship, doesn’t diminish CC from being the GOAT of college women’s b-ball.

 

[HawkFan1986]

The entire “goat” argument is stupid in my opinion.

 

[BioHawk]

the GOAT because of championships in a team sport was dumb before Clark and will be dumb after Clark.

I don't know, I think it is a metric, but not THE metric. How that player performs in the greatest of high-pressure situations is the most important factor when it comes to championships. Are they able to carry a team on their back and will that team to a championship? Even if they aren't successful, because even the best players need other players on the team to perform, do they come up big in huge games? Up until now, the brighter the light, the better Clark's performance has been. It doesn't matter that she didn't win, she was great in those games. So, I don't think you can say the number of championships matters as much as how they performed in those games.

 

[Fan In Black]

I don't know, I think it is a metric, but not THE metric. How that player performs in the greatest of high-pressure situations is the most important factor when it comes to championships. Are they able to carry a team on their back and will that team to a championship? Even if they aren't successful, because even the best players need other players on the team to perform, do they come up big in huge games? Up until now, the brighter the light, the better Clark's performance has been. It doesn't matter that she didn't win, she was great in those games. So, I don't think you can say the number of championships matters as much as how they performed in those games.

they still get the metric counted even for championships they didn't win with a play they made or because of their play in that game.

 

[BioHawk]

they still get the metric counted even for championships they didn't win with a play they made or because of their play in that game.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here but I'm just thinking I can't discount championships completely because it is one of the reasons I think Jordan would have beaten Lebron in every series they might have played against each other. Sure, they both have championships but Jordan never lost. He needed help to win them, but he made it a personal mission to will his team to every championship they won. There is no doubt in my mind that if he didn't take a two year sabbatical the Bulls would have won 8 championships in a row in the 90's. And maybe it's not the championships themselves, but how he managed to win them that matters.

 

[WSC72]

What’s not really brought up in all this GOAT and championship talk is…what if Iowa’s game vs South Carolina last year was in the championship vs the Final 4 semi-final? Caitlin and Iowa are the only team to beat SC in the last 2 years, so just because Iowa’s victory over SC was one game b4 the championship, doesn’t diminish CC from being the GOAT of college women’s b-ball.

I’m not really following what you’re saying here Hans. Can you clarify knowing that you are trying to explain it to an idiot.

 

[Georgia_Hawk]

One thing I can guarantee. If Iowa finds a way to win the whole thing, guys like Jay Williams will find a way to move the goal post again.

 

[ichawk24]

There are 8 multi-year Wcbb players of the year. Those are the starting point to discuss GOAT.

I do think this is a great point.

 

[ichawk24]

Win Shares Women's Career Leaders and Records Since 1987-88​

Rank	Player	WS	From	To	Last School
1	Maya Moore	56.56	2008	2011	Connecticut
2	Sylvia Fowles	49.79	2005	2008	Louisiana State
3	Brittney Griner	49.28	2010	2013	Baylor
4	Breanna Stewart	47.86	2013	2016	Connecticut
5	Elena Delle Donne	47.08	2010	2013	Delaware
6	Tina Charles	43.86	2007	2010	Connecticut
7	Alysha Clark	42.73	2006	2010	Middle Tennessee
8	Jessica Davenport	42.69	2004	2007	Ohio State
9	Chiney Ogwumike	42.17	2011	2014	Stanford
10	Napheesa Collier	41.77	2016	2019	Connecticut
11	Courtney Paris	41.43	2006	2009	Oklahoma
12	Caitlin Clark	40.91	2021	2024	Iowa

Offensive Win Shares Women's Career Leaders and Records​

Since 1987-88​

Rank	Player	OWS	From	To	Last School
1	Elena Delle Donne	39.19	2010	2013	Delaware
2	Caitlin Clark	36.52	2021	2024	Iowa
3	Brittney Griner	35.30	2010	2013	Baylor
4	Maya Moore	34.43	2008	2011	Connecticut
5	Sabrina Ionescu	33.50	2017	2020	Oregon
6	Megan Herbert	31.60	2010	2013	Central Arkansas
7	Alysha Clark	31.31	2006	2010	Middle Tennessee
8	Kelsey Plum	31.21	2014	2017	Washington
9	Crystal Kelly	30.94	2005	2008	Western Kentucky
10	Chiney Ogwumike	30.87	2011	2014	Stanford
11	Breanna Stewart	30.76	2013	2016	Connecticut

 

[onlyTheObvious]

Personally I think Bill Russell is the GOAT. Of course I’m old. But his 13 Championships, including college, and as a player coach certainly give him at least a chair at the table.

In my mind you do have to win a title (are there any GOATS that never won a title in the main US sports? I honestly don’t know) But it’s all a matter of opinion I suppose

Some argued Marino was before Brady came along.

I never was in that camp.

 

[WSC72]

Some argued Marino was before Brady came along.

I never was in that camp.

Now you are making this Dolphins Fan, since 1967, feel great!

 

[Mountain Man Hawk]

Feurebach, Stuelke, Gyamfi, McCabe, Jones, Ediger, OGrady, Affolter and Warnock are all 4 star top 100 recruits. Marshall (#28 PG), Martin (#28 guard), Goodman (#12 post), and Cizano (#17 post) are 3 star, Davis is three time all MAC.

The next 6 recruits coming in are one 5 star and four 4 star, all top 100 recruits. There is more talent on this team than people give them credit for.

Recruiting rankings courtesy of HoopGurlz and Prospect Nation.

I agree Clark is still the GOAT regardless.

Iowa’s recruits are on average better than I would have guessed. The point still stands though. From an article I read today:



UConn may be down to six or seven players, but it’s a team full of five-stars vs. a team with one in Clark.

Bueckers was the No. 1 overall prospect by ESPN in 2020, Clark was No. 4. Edwards was the No. 23 prospect in 2020. Brady was No. 5 in 2022. In the Class of 2023, Arnold was No. 5 and Shade No. 15.

Affolter, Marshall and Kate Martin were not top-100 prospects. Stuelke was No. 45 in the Class of 2022.

Leistikow's 5 thoughts ahead of Iowa women's basketball vs UConn matchup in Final Four

What emerged from Thursday's media interviews at Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse leading up to this game that's more than Caitlin Clark vs. Paige Bueckers.

www.hawkcentral.com

 

[herkyhawk00]

This is the DUMBEST argument in all of team sports. It boggles my mind that so many people think you need to win a championship to be the greatest player ever at your team sport.

So if Caitlin Clark would have committed to South Carolina instead of Iowa, she's all of a sudden the goat but since she chose to play with 3 star recruits instead of a team of 5 stars, she somehow isn't the goat? That makes her MORE of the goat in my opinion.

Individual sports, by all means, measure people by championships. It means nothing in team sports when discussing the best to ever play.

You can’t be considered the GOAT in boxing, wrestling, or MMA if you don’t win it all, but those are not team sports. To me it is stupid that it is even argued.

 

[MeetTheFerentzes]

Welp, I think today's game is a perfect example of why winning championships, particularly playing well in championship games, goes a long ways toward someone qualifying as a "GOAT." Yeah, CC wasn't on a loaded team, and this was a team loss for sure, but still, she had a chance to play a super outstanding game on the biggest stage to carry her team to a championship, but couldn't. No doubt she's transcended the sport more than anyone else, though, AINEC.

 

[longliveCS40]

Welp, I think today's game is a perfect example of why winning championships, particularly playing well in championship games, goes a long ways toward someone qualifying as a "GOAT." Yeah, CC wasn't on a loaded team, and this was a team loss for sure, but still, she had a chance to play a super outstanding game on the biggest stage to carry her team to a championship, but couldn't. No doubt she's transcended the sport more than anyone else, though, AINEC.

She had 30 points, 8 rebounds, and 5 assists in a national championship game against a team that's lost once in two years.

That's a super outstanding game. No other player, past or present, would put up those numbers against that team while playing with CC's supporting cast.

She's the GOAT and it isn't even close.

 

[pjhawk]

I just wish Caitlin would have spent the 4th quarter chucking 3's, was the only slim shot to win the game anway. O'Grady's taking a shot down 5 with 3 minutes plus left in the game? WTH?

 

[joelbc1]

Personally I think Bill Russell is the GOAT. Of course I’m old. But his 13 Championships, including college, and as a player coach certainly give him at least a chair at the table.

In my mind you do have to win a title (are there any GOATS that never won a title in the main US sports? I honestly don’t know) But it’s all a matter of opinion I suppose

Russell is basketball’s greatest WINNER ever. There is no doubt about that.
Using “the current” logic expressed here he would get the greatest basketballer ever… Russell was not that… abs I am a huge Celtic/Russell apologist. Russell was an early “transitionist” of the game of basketball as he placed a premium on defensive skills (shot blocking and rebounds) and he is one of the greatest to ever play the game… he never lost a Game#7 or championship game in his career…but wasn’t the greatest player ever. But no one won more than Bill!

 

[nelly02]

The thing is if she did go to UCONN or something and even led them to like 3 or 4 titles... she's not putting up the numbers she did and guess what there are several uconn players who won that many titles. That's nothing new. No one has done what Caitlin has done. The fact she doesn't have a title is really stupid if you are talking about one player. What's hilarious is the UCONN players from the past who played with 9 other 5 stars who are just jealous and say she can't be the GOAT without a title. Let's see what Taurasi does with this iowa team? I'm pretty confident in saying she wouldn't have done what Caitlin did

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

The thing is if she did go to UCONN or something and even led them to like 3 or 4 titles... she's not putting up the numbers she did and guess what there are several uconn players who won that many titles. That's nothing new. No one has done what Caitlin has done. The fact she doesn't have a title is really stupid if you are talking about one player. What's hilarious is the UCONN players from the past who played with 9 other 5 stars who are just jealous and say she can't be the GOAT without a title. Let's see what Taurasi does with this iowa team? I'm pretty confident in saying she wouldn't have done what Caitlin did

I would honestly struggle to come up with a player from throughout women's CBB history who could do what Clark helped Iowa do.

Certainly not Stewart, Bird or Taurasi.