Ayala

[ginormous.headed.circus.midget]

I know of a handful of elite level freshman that wrestled for Iowa as true freshman, that had the skills but had limited success that year and it affected them the rest of their careers.

Bart Chelsvig was the pound for pound #1 or 2 recruit and took his lumps as a true freshman and never really got back the where he was. Matt Fields and Alex Tsirtsis careers were impacted as well.
(Heck Throw Abe Assad in there as well)

But… there were some pretty high profile athletes that did well as true freshmen and continued to do well (Spencer Lee, Randy Lewis and Barry Davis). Daniel Dennis had a rough true freshman campaign and ended strong, but he was not considered an elite recruit like the previous 6 or 7.

How does Tom measure the mentality of the kid?
How will Drake respond to adversity and losses?

This will be where Tom earns his salary. It may work out well and Drake has an incredible career starting this year. Or he takes some lumps this year that he isn’t used to, and struggles to get back to where he is now.

Some kids need the year to develop, not because they aren’t physically ready for the success but that they aren’t ready for handling not having success.

I would keep the redshirt this year and wrestle Ybarra. Even with two reconstructed knees, there is no guarantee that Spencer will make it through next season either.

But, it is Drake’s and the staffs decision obviously.

 

[dtripp26]

I know of a handful of elite level freshman that wrestled for Iowa as true freshman, that had the skills but had limited success that year and it affected them the rest of their careers.

Bart Chelsvig was the pound for pound #1 or 2 recruit and took his lumps as a true freshman and never really got back the where he was. Matt Fields and Alex Tsirtsis careers were impacted as well.
(Heck Throw Abe Assad in there as well)

But… there were some pretty high profile athletes that did well as true freshmen and continued to do well (Spencer Lee, Randy Lewis and Barry Davis). Daniel Dennis had a rough true freshman campaign and ended strong, but he was not considered an elite recruit like the previous 6 or 7.

How does Tom measure the mentality of the kid?
How will Drake respond to adversity and losses?

This will be where Tom earns his salary. It may work out well and Drake has an incredible career starting this year. Or he takes some lumps this year that he isn’t used to, and struggles to get back to where he is now.

Some kids need the year to develop, not because they aren’t physically ready for the success but that they aren’t ready for handling not having success.

I would keep the redshirt this year and wrestle Ybarra. Even with two reconstructed knees, there is no guarantee that Spencer will make it through next season either.

But, it is Drake’s and the staffs decision obviously.

Chelsvig went 3-3-3 his last three seasons. He didn't win a ship but he was an outstanding wrestler.
Abe? How can you include a guy who's 5 matches into his soph season?

What about PSU? Nico, Zain, Hall, etc.

I mean we could do this all week long and come up with true frosh who had great seasons and went on to great things and others who crapped the bed. I guess I'd like to see us take a shot at winning another title now while we still have all our horses.

 

[woodsiding]

I get that in a perfect world Ayala develops this year and has four more years. But recent history says that five years is a crap shoot whether or not the body has held up. Off the top of my head McDonough, St. John, Telford, Stoll, Clark (even though he won it!), Spencer, Kemmerer, all banged up by their 5th year. I think the real risk is that you have a healthy Ayala right now and you don't use him.

 

[moug]

I think we learned a lot about his mental toughness today. He just lost a tough one to McKee, got tossed to his back for 6, then was down 0-7 through 2 periods and never conceded a damn thing. He’s a gamer.

 

[Nashville_Hawkeye]

I think we learned a lot about his mental toughness today. He just lost a tough one to McKee, got tossed to his back for 6, then was down 0-7 through 2 periods and never conceded a damn thing. He’s a gamer.

I'm with you. I just went back into Flo to watch the third period again. DA is a fricking warrior with an engine that never stops, and there is just no quit in this kid. Like many have already said, I think this DA will make the podium, and while I don't know that he's ready for the likes of Glory, Vito, or Suriano, everyone else better look out come NCAAs. Would love to see him shock the hell out of Vito or Suriano at B10s. That engine seems very ADS like...and with any luck he'll wear down a couple of the hammers and steal a win.

 

[moug]

I’d have to go rewatch the Rokfin Duals to get the quote correct, but during one of Spencer’s matches (NC ST I think) the announcer said something like “the good ones never seem to panic, regardless of time or score”. I’m not saying Drake is Spencer 2.0, but there was a poise Ayala showed even after the end of the 2nd period and throughout the 3rd. He never seemed rattled just went to work until got his hand raised.

 

[Iowabandwagon]

I’d have to go rewatch the Rokfin Duals to get the quote correct, but during one of Spencer’s matches (NC ST I think) the announcer said something like “the good ones never seem to panic, regardless of time or score”. I’m not saying Drake is Spencer 2.0, but there was a poise Ayala showed even after the end of the 2nd period and throughout the 3rd. He never seemed rattled just went to work until got his hand raised.

Agreed he’s not Spencer but who is? However, I recall Spencer at less than 100% losing to Rivera at midlands and he never seemed panicked or in any rush. It was honestly a bit alarming. The great ones always think they’re going to win…even in defeat. Ayala is going to be very good. How good? Time will tell but he has some big shoes to fill with Spencer. If he goes this year, AA status will suffice in my book.

 

[1032004]

If Iowa still wants to win the team title this year, this isn’t even a question…they need his points.

But even if you keep him in RS for the sake of his development, to stay in the lineup he’d have to bump up to 133 when Lee comes back which probably isn’t ideal either. Which is part of the reason why I’m surprised more people aren’t suggesting Lee redshirt in 2022-2023 and maybe even ORS in 2023-2024 (which would also shut up the haters about making sure Lee is ready for the Olympics). I don’t really see Iowa competing for a team title in 2022-2023 with all the guys they’re losing after this year. After next season all you lose are Warner and Murin. If Lee redshirts 2 years then you lose Cass too (but maybe he could ORS also?). So I feel like it would make sense to let Ayala have a couple years at 125 before going up to 133, then bring Lee back when the current crop of young guys have more experience.

 

[Ruinous]

If Iowa still wants to win the team title this year, this isn’t even a question…they need his points.

But even if you keep him in RS for the sake of his development, to stay in the lineup he’d have to bump up to 133 when Lee comes back which probably isn’t ideal either. Which is part of the reason why I’m surprised more people aren’t suggesting Lee redshirt in 2022-2023 and maybe even ORS in 2023-2024 (which would also shut up the haters about making sure Lee is ready for the Olympics). I don’t really see Iowa competing for a team title in 2022-2023 with all the guys they’re losing after this year. After next season all you lose are Warner and Murin. If Lee redshirts 2 years then you lose Cass too (but maybe he could ORS also?). So I feel like it would make sense to let Ayala have a couple years at 125 before going up to 133, then bring Lee back when the current crop of young guys have more experience.

SL does not have a RS year available.....even if a two year break was in the cards. It is my understanding that he needs a medical waiver just to be able to come back next year.

 

[ginormous.headed.circus.midget]

SL does not have a RS year available.....even if a two year break was in the cards. It is my understanding that he needs a medical waiver just to be able to come back next year.

He qualifies for the medical redshirt this year(based on the criteria).

He would need a “Harship” to get next year (under normal circumstances he would, but grimy given the free Covid year it would not be guaranteed)

Without the hardship he wouldn’t be in school to get the Olympic Redshirt, although that would be just a formality if he were granted the hardship.

Very doubtful he would stay through 2025

 

[NREPP Fraud]

Ayala will be the guy, and he'll AA.

Ayala has a murderous stretch of opponents coming up! Possibly AA!

 

[Ruinous]

He qualifies for the medical redshirt this year(based on the criteria).

He would need a “Harship” to get next year (under normal circumstances he would, but grimy given the free Covid year it would not be guaranteed)

Without the hardship he wouldn’t be in school to get the Olympic Redshirt, although that would be just a formality if he were granted the hardship.

Very doubtful he would stay through 2025

Thanks for the clarification.....and 1032004 can ignore my faulty understanding!

 

[ginormous.headed.circus.midget]

Chelsvig went 3-3-3 his last three seasons. He didn't win a ship but he was an outstanding wrestler.
Abe? How can you include a guy who's 5 matches into his soph season?

What about PSU? Nico, Zain, Hall, etc.

I mean we could do this all week long and come up with true frosh who had great seasons and went on to great things and others who crapped the bed. I guess I'd like to see us take a shot at winning another title now while we still have all our horses.

Perhaps you read to quickly or the post in its entirety, but I never said he shouldn’t or that it was bad for Drake to compete as a true freshman.


I listed several wrestlers where I didn’t feel like it worked out in their best interest.

I also listed wrestlers wherecit worked out fine.

I said I would keep the redshirt and have him be the insurance next year if Spencer’s couldn’t go the full season.

But it seems the biggest part you missed was that it was up to Drake and the staff to make the decision (which would be based on his mentality)

It has to be what’s best for Drake as much as it is for the team.
And that’s why Tom is paid to make those decisions.

 

[MVPFAN]

I think we learned a lot about his mental toughness today. He just lost a tough one to McKee, got tossed to his back for 6, then was down 0-7 through 2 periods and never conceded a damn thing. He’s a gamer.

He seemed cool as a cucumber in the match considering.

 

[bluroptimo]

IMHO… DA will be the Iowa rep in March. Between now and then rotate him and Ybarra as needed to compliment DA’s progress.

 

[Kwoodhawk]

He qualifies for the medical redshirt this year(based on the criteria).

He would need a “Harship” to get next year (under normal circumstances he would, but grimy given the free Covid year it would not be guaranteed)

Without the hardship he wouldn’t be in school to get the Olympic Redshirt, although that would be just a formality if he were granted the hardship.

Very doubtful he would stay through 2025

Hardship waivers are for wusses...........

 

[Kwoodhawk]

He qualifies for the medical redshirt this year(based on the criteria).

He would need a “Harship” to get next year (under normal circumstances he would, but grimy given the free Covid year it would not be guaranteed)

Without the hardship he wouldn’t be in school to get the Olympic Redshirt, although that would be just a formality if he were granted the hardship.

Very doubtful he would stay through 2025

Spencer has won 3 titles and then the free covid year. This year is his Sr. year and he wrestled 3 matches in Florida so that shoots his regular redshirt. He can qualify for a medical redshirt, but what is this Hardship you talk about. What are the qualifications for it. He would have had 4 full years in if he gets the Medical and used up his elegibility so explain why he would get another year please.

 

[SPOONER]

Spencer has won 3 titles and then the free covid year. This year is his Sr. year and he wrestled 3 matches in Florida so that shoots his regular redshirt. He can qualify for a medical redshirt, but what is this Hardship you talk about. What are the qualifications for it. He would have had 4 full years in if he gets the Medical and used up his elegibility so explain why he would get another year please.

It’s what is normally referred to as a 6th year. With the free Covid year it’s a 7th year. Used to only be granted when an entire year plus another full year were lost to injury but the NCAA has gotten more liberal over the years.

It’s the reason Michael Kemerer is still an Iowa Hawkeye.

 

[SPOONER]

I know of a handful of elite level freshman that wrestled for Iowa as true freshman, that had the skills but had limited success that year and it affected them the rest of their careers.

Bart Chelsvig was the pound for pound #1 or 2 recruit and took his lumps as a true freshman and never really got back the where he was. Matt Fields and Alex Tsirtsis careers were impacted as well.
(Heck Throw Abe Assad in there as well)

But… there were some pretty high profile athletes that did well as true freshmen and continued to do well (Spencer Lee, Randy Lewis and Barry Davis). Daniel Dennis had a rough true freshman campaign and ended strong, but he was not considered an elite recruit like the previous 6 or 7.

How does Tom measure the mentality of the kid?
How will Drake respond to adversity and losses?

This will be where Tom earns his salary. It may work out well and Drake has an incredible career starting this year. Or he takes some lumps this year that he isn’t used to, and struggles to get back to where he is now.

Some kids need the year to develop, not because they aren’t physically ready for the success but that they aren’t ready for handling not having success.

I would keep the redshirt this year and wrestle Ybarra. Even with two reconstructed knees, there is no guarantee that Spencer will make it through next season either.

But, it is Drake’s and the staffs decision obviously.

Lincoln Mac, Joe Williams and their 6 combined NCAA titles are missing from your list. And for that matter, so is TJ Williams and his 2. But that said, none of these old names are particularly relevant to Drake Ayala.

 

[GG121AND2]

I know of a handful of elite level freshman that wrestled for Iowa as true freshman, that had the skills but had limited success that year and it affected them the rest of their careers.

Bart Chelsvig was the pound for pound #1 or 2 recruit and took his lumps as a true freshman and never really got back the where he was. Matt Fields and Alex Tsirtsis careers were impacted as well.
(Heck Throw Abe Assad in there as well)

But… there were some pretty high profile athletes that did well as true freshmen and continued to do well (Spencer Lee, Randy Lewis and Barry Davis). Daniel Dennis had a rough true freshman campaign and ended strong, but he was not considered an elite recruit like the previous 6 or 7.

How does Tom measure the mentality of the kid?
How will Drake respond to adversity and losses?

This will be where Tom earns his salary. It may work out well and Drake has an incredible career starting this year. Or he takes some lumps this year that he isn’t used to, and struggles to get back to where he is now.

Some kids need the year to develop, not because they aren’t physically ready for the success but that they aren’t ready for handling not having success.

I would keep the redshirt this year and wrestle Ybarra. Even with two reconstructed knees, there is no guarantee that Spencer will make it through next season either.

But, it is Drake’s and the staffs decision obviously.

Gable pulled McGinness' and McIlravey's shirts to win titles. They each had okay careers.

 

[TarpHawk]

I've never really bought into the idea that wrestling top competition as a true freshman was responsible for "mentally breaking" anyone who had the mental discipline to be an NCAA champ to begin with. If you break mentally by getting beat, you were never destined to be great. I found the opposite to be true: wrestling the absolute best opponents makes you better a whole lot faster than wrestling opponents with whom you can continue to get away with sloppy stuff. There are many other factors that influence a person's wrestling trajectory: social life, shifting priorities, injuries, family issues. I'd put "wrestling tough opponents as a freshman" pretty far down the list. Maybe it helps more quickly weed out the guys who weren't going to make it anyway.

 

[MSU158]

It’s what is normally referred to as a 6th year. With the free Covid year it’s a 7th year. Used to only be granted when an entire year plus another full year were lost to injury but the NCAA has gotten more liberal over the years.

It’s the reason Michael Kemerer is still an Iowa Hawkeye.

Shaker Rasheed is probably the best, most recent example of this. It seemed to me that missing a large portion of at least 2 seasons, without a postseason, became the new criteria. He had wrestled part of 5 seasons, but only 5 matches in 2015 and 6 in 2017.

He ended up getting a 6th year, but Covid took it back from him in 2020…

 

[24 so far]

I think we learned a lot about his mental toughness today. He just lost a tough one to McKee, got tossed to his back for 6, then was down 0-7 through 2 periods and never conceded a damn thing. He’s a gamer.

He most definitely is.

 

[MVPFAN]

Getting tossed like that now is a good thing, better to experience it now vs at end of the year tournament time or a big dual.

 

[1032004]

Spencer has won 3 titles and then the free covid year. This year is his Sr. year and he wrestled 3 matches in Florida so that shoots his regular redshirt. He can qualify for a medical redshirt, but what is this Hardship you talk about. What are the qualifications for it. He would have had 4 full years in if he gets the Medical and used up his elegibility so explain why he would get another year please

I’m not an NCAA eligibility expert, but if he gets the hardship waiver, wouldn’t that be for this season (2021-2022)? In which case I don’t see why his traditional redshirt wouldn’t still be available for next year (2022-2023).

 

[MitchLL]

DA has a tough road ahead to AA. There are a lot of experienced 125s in the B1G which means he probably isn't getting a great seed at Nattys. That's why I feel a win on Friday is pretty important.

He'll make strides before the post season, and that's really all we can hope for.

 

[1032004]

Perhaps you read to quickly or the post in its entirety, but I never said he shouldn’t or that it was bad for Drake to compete as a true freshman.


I listed several wrestlers where I didn’t feel like it worked out in their best interest.

I also listed wrestlers wherecit worked out fine.

I said I would keep the redshirt and have him be the insurance next year if Spencer’s couldn’t go the full season.

But it seems the biggest part you missed was that it was up to Drake and the staff to make the decision (which would be based on his mentality)

It has to be what’s best for Drake as much as it is for the team.
And that’s why Tom is paid to make those decisions.

So “you would” have Ayala waste a year of eligibility by being a backup next season? If Ayala stays in redshirt, and Lee is back next year, Ayala should at least go up to 133 (if he can beat Schriever).

 

[MSU158]

I've never really bought into the idea that wrestling top competition as a true freshman was responsible for "mentally breaking" anyone who had the mental discipline to be an NCAA champ to begin with. If you break mentally by getting beat, you were never destined to be great. I found the opposite to be true: wrestling the absolute best opponents makes you better a whole lot faster than wrestling opponents with whom you can continue to get away with sloppy stuff. There are many other factors that influence a person's wrestling trajectory: social life, shifting priorities, injuries, family issues. I'd put "wrestling tough opponents as a freshman" pretty far down the list. Maybe it helps more quickly weed out the guys who weren't going to make it anyway.

For the bluest of blue chips, I agree with you. But, there definitely are some exceptions. Not all wrestlers are fanatically wired like the Brands were. This is especially true of 18 year olds that are used to winning basically every match.

Confidence can be a tricky thing at an early age. Especially if you were a kid that worked exceptionally hard since age 5, saw all that work pay off into a top 10ish lb for lb High School career, only to get into a DI room and get ridden by a 2nd or 3rd string guy for an entire practice.

Some kids definitely need to be brought along more slowly to regain that confidence. I would say Teske may be one of the best, most recent examples. He needed the time and the right environment for him, to get back to a top 10ish type wrestler.

If you are solely trying to build 4x AA’s and multi-time NCAA Champs, your way is the best, but it WILL destroy a significant portion of guys that could have developed into 3rd or 4th year AA types if brought along the right way.

I know “iron sharpens iron” has been a giant Iowa mantra for along time, but even water sharpens things given time…

 

[MVPFAN]

So “you would” have Ayala waste a year of eligibility by being a backup next season? If Ayala stays in redshirt, and Lee is back next year, Ayala should at least go up to 133 (if he can beat Schriever).

The staff is going to have to really think things through on this. Likelihood of Spencer making it back, Ayala's ability to make 125, Ayala's ability to AA this year.

 

[MSU158]

I’m not an NCAA eligibility expert, but if he gets the hardship waiver, wouldn’t that be for this season (2021-2022)? In which case I don’t see why his traditional redshirt wouldn’t still be available for next year (2022-2023).

Either way, his regular redshirt would get burnt. He has already wrestled 3 “full” seasons, so he needs the redshirt year To be eligible for a medical hardship or medical redshirt.

So, his best chance for 2 medical years would be getting the medical redshirt for next year(which should basically be a guarantee) and then he could try to get a hardship for next year if he doesn’t wrestle(I would think that very unlikely…

 

[MSU158]

The staff is going to have to really think things through on this. Likelihood of Spencer making it back, Ayala's ability to make 125, Ayala's ability to AA this year.

As long as the wrestler is “all in” you are going to do what is best for the team THIS year, especially if he could be the difference In winning it all. If that means Ayala going, you don’t worry about the next 4 years until you get there.

To me, Ayala wrestling this year is kind of a no brainer. He has shown he is good enough to AA. With Lee not wrestling he appears to be the best option at 125 by a large margin.

On top of that, he preserves his redshirt to use over the course of the next 4 years. If Lee comes back, he can redshirt. If he doesn’t, he can continue to man 125. I just don’t see the downside to him going this year…

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

Lots of unknowns regarding surgery and rehab before actions can be taken and decisions made. Spencer can only take it one step at a time and control what he can control until then. Regardless of relative likelihoods, I see nothing wrong with Spencer and Iowa maximizing their future flexibility when those times come.

 

[pumpdog20]

I've never really bought into the idea that wrestling top competition as a true freshman was responsible for "mentally breaking" anyone who had the mental discipline to be an NCAA champ to begin with. If you break mentally by getting beat, you were never destined to be great. I found the opposite to be true: wrestling the absolute best opponents makes you better a whole lot faster than wrestling opponents with whom you can continue to get away with sloppy stuff. There are many other factors that influence a person's wrestling trajectory: social life, shifting priorities, injuries, family issues. I'd put "wrestling tough opponents as a freshman" pretty far down the list. Maybe it helps more quickly weed out the guys who weren't going to make it anyway.

Agree, the thought is dumb.

The right thing to do is always wrestle the best (or next best) wrestler. And you always have the redshirt year in your back pocket when you actually need it, like an injury.

 

[Tcalumet]

I'm with you. I just went back into Flo to watch the third period again. DA is a fricking warrior with an engine that never stops, and there is just no quit in this kid. Like many have already said, I think this DA will make the podium, and while I don't know that he's ready for the likes of Glory, Vito, or Suriano, everyone else better look out come NCAAs. Would love to see him shock the hell out of Vito or Suriano at B10s. That engine seems very ADS like...and with any luck he'll wear down a couple of the hammers and steal a win.

It was the best 3rd period come back I’ve seen this year hands down

 

[lookleft goright]

Spencer has won 3 titles and then the free covid year. This year is his Sr. year and he wrestled 3 matches in Florida so that shoots his regular redshirt. He can qualify for a medical redshirt, but what is this Hardship you talk about. What are the qualifications for it. He would have had 4 full years in if he gets the Medical and used up his elegibility so explain why he would get another year please.

Why did I think that guys were allowed to wrestle 4 matches and still keep a redshirt? Was that discussed and not passed?

 

[moug]

Why did I think that guys were allowed to wrestle 4 matches and still keep a redshirt? Was that discussed and not passed?

That’s a football and basketball specific rule. And it should be a rule across all sports but it’s not at this time unfortunately.

 

[24 so far]

As long as the wrestler is “all in” you are going to do what is best for the team THIS year, especially if he could be the difference In winning it all. If that means Ayala going, you don’t worry about the next 4 years until you get there.

To me, Ayala wrestling this year is kind of a no brainer. He has shown he is good enough to AA. With Lee not wrestling he appears to be the best option at 125 by a large margin.

On top of that, he preserves his redshirt to use over the course of the next 4 years. If Lee comes back, he can redshirt. If he doesn’t, he can continue to man 125. I just don’t see the downside to him going this year…

I believe we have reached no-brainer territory as well.

It sucks big time for Drake Ayala IMO, but he may not see it that way. The reality is shit happens and you deal with it as best you can. Next Man in. Drake Ayala is the Next Man. Go get'em kid!

 

[poorwrestler]

DA has a tough road ahead to AA. There are a lot of experienced 125s in the B1G which means he probably isn't getting a great seed at Nattys. That's why I feel a win on Friday is pretty important.

He'll make strides before the post season, and that's really all we can hope for.

I can almost guarantee McKee will go upper body with him right away. McKee has done that multiple times this season and after seeing Surtin do it successfully, Ayala will have to be ready for that a lot from here on out.

 

[HawkFan1986]

I believe we have reached no-brainer territory as well.

It sucks big time for Drake Ayala IMO, but he may not see it that way. The reality is shit happens and you deal with it as best you can. Next Man in. Drake Ayala is the Next Man. Go get'em kid!

This times 100! Given his performance in last nights comeback I don’t question Drakes mental ability to deal with some adversity. He’s not fragile, and he has the skills to compete right now!

 

[hawkman37]

So when do we see probable line-ups for Friday night