Before the PTL: My Guesswork on the Newbies

[RocknRollface]

I wouldn't put White in the great category until he started taking and hitting jump shots the last quarter of his senior year.

I agree that they are all different players, that doesn't decide who is the best or most valuable.

They all played the same position except for Earl.

Give Street, Evans, Settles and Brunner 4 healthy years as starters and their numbers would be very different.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

I wouldn't put White in the great category until he started taking and hitting jump shots the last quarter of his senior year.

I agree that they are all different players, that doesn't decide who is the best or most valuable.

They all played the same position except for Earl.

Give Street, Evans, Settles and Brunner 4 healthy years as starters and their numbers would be very different.

Fair enough. Outside of Street, none of them had an outside game beyond the arc. Evans was strictly garbage buckets. Earl was 5 feet in. I don't believe you can play the "if they were healthy for 4 years game". Heck, if Recker was healthy he probably goes down as one of the best Hawks. He didn't, so he doesn't. I don't think White should be punished because he stayed healthy, it should be a plus in his favor, much like Ripkin. Mickey Mantle may have been the best player to ever play baseball, if he didn't get hurt, and didn't abuse alcohol. He did though, so he's not.

I also think it's important that the other players played with 1-2 other players, who'd I'd put above anyone on White's teams. Put White on a team like Wis and I think he would have been a beast.

 

[hawk-i bob]

I don't have a list, and if I did it would include more than 11 names. I called you a db because I thought you were nitpicking with the best big men comment. Fine, I'll stick to he's one of the best players to don an Iowa jersey. Now, watch me be a db by doing to you what I thought you did to me. I never said he "was one of the best players EVER". I said he was "one of the best players to ever wear an Iowa uniform." I don't think he belongs in with Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, etc. "Maybe you should read what u/I post". Now do you understand why it came across as a little db'ish to me, even if it wasn't meant to be?

Why do I need to provide a list? I've provided the stats as the basis for my reasoning. He ranks 1st in numerous categories. You want me to apply subjective standards you are using to come up with a list. You are talking about players from different eras. One of your reasons you gave against White was freshman didn't play prior to '73. Yet half of your list is made up of players post '73.

Why get upset? If you disagree with me that Dan's analysis isn't a little rose colored, so what? Don't I have a right to my opinion? If it upsets you or others to admit that maybe, just maybe, you maybe overhyping these players a tiny bit, then just move on your way. No one is forcing you to comment. You are free to disagree with me. Why the hostility though because I state the obvious? Has it become a rule around here where only saying rosy things is allowed? Good grief, if you don't agree with me or even if you don't like what I say, get over it. Move on. Ignore it. Or at the very least show me where I"m wrong. All anyone has done has claimed I said things I didn't and acted like I pissed in your cheerios because I doubt these players will be as good as Dan (and others here) have said they are. History and human nature are on my side that I'm correct. I'm sorry if this offends you.

Cop out, because you know you made it up. LOL. Your responses to me should begin "Dan's fictional tales". You're just making sh*t up as usual. You are the guy who started the argument, not me. It's DanL's bizzaro world, welcome everybody.

You're the clown that thinks rankings are meaningless then cite Kaminsky as your proof. Not reasoning there, Dan, the exception proves the rule. Ignore the fact he had 5 D1 offers, including at least 2 in the B1G. Ignore the fact that Wis also has Dekker (5 star), Hayes (4 star), Koenig (4 star), and Kaminsky, Gasser, and Jackson were all 3's stars.

But hey, you're such an awesome evaluator talent, nobody hires you to do this for a living. If you have a problem with making a harmless, general observation about overhyping, then that's your problem. If you don't like what I have to say, prove where I'm wrong, or don't bother responding. It's not really that hard. This is a message board, we are free to express opinions.

and the clown you are referring to had multiple positive replies on this thread....how many did you have? carry on

 

[hawkeyesports92]

Cop out, because you know you made it up. LOL. Your responses to me should begin "Dan's fictional tales". You're just making sh*t up as usual. You are the guy who started the argument, not me. It's DanL's bizzaro world, welcome everybody.

You're the clown that thinks rankings are meaningless then cite Kaminsky as your proof. Not reasoning there, Dan, the exception proves the rule. Ignore the fact he had 5 D1 offers, including at least 2 in the B1G. Ignore the fact that Wis also has Dekker (5 star), Hayes (4 star), Koenig (4 star), and Kaminsky, Gasser, and Jackson were all 3's stars.

But hey, you're such an awesome evaluator talent, nobody hires you to do this for a living. If you have a problem with making a harmless, general observation about overhyping, then that's your problem. If you don't like what I have to say, prove where I'm wrong, or don't bother responding. It's not really that hard. This is a message board, we are free to express opinions.

Your panties are all bunched up dbag.

 

[icu81222]

Good grief. Fine. He's still one of the best players to ever wear an Iowa uniform. Geez, you are being a db, just to be a db. But, yeah, he's not one of Iowa's best players. LOL. So, I'll ask again. If you don't think White is one of the best players to ever wear an Iowa uniform, I sure want to see your long list of better players. Ignore the numbers bob, I hate to stop you from a good rant based on your "unbiased" observations.

"Finished his Iowa career ranked first in Iowa games played (140), and free throw makes (618) and attempts (800), second in scoring (1,859), third in rebounding (901), and 14th in double-doubles (16)... made more free throws (618) than any Big Ten player the last 50 years and ranks third all-time in conference annals... first Hawkeye to lead the team in rebounding four straight years... his 195 free throw makes in 2015 are the most by any Iowa senior in program history and is second overall (218 by Reggie Evans in 2001)... shattered Iowa's career free throw makes record (618); Roy Marble is second with 516... only Hawkeye with 1,800+ points, 900+ rebounds, 175+ assists, and 125+ steals... scored in double figures 95 career times... posted 16 career double-doubles... pulled down double-digit rebounds 17 career times... score 20-points-or-more 20 times in his career... first Hawkeye ever to register 1,300+ points, 650+ rebounds, 100+ steals and 100+ assists by his junior season... p

http://www.hawkeyesports.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/aaron_white_737355.html

Nice strawman too. Iowa fans "Have every right to be excited and optimistic". Actually you are wrong, they have every right to be excited/optimist OR depressed/pessimistic. Fans have the right to feel whatever they want about the team.

You sound fun

 

[herkster8]

Cop out, because you know you made it up. LOL. Your responses to me should begin "Dan's fictional tales". You're just making sh*t up as usual. You are the guy who started the argument, not me. It's DanL's bizzaro world, welcome everybody.

You're the clown that thinks rankings are meaningless then cite Kaminsky as your proof. Not reasoning there, Dan, the exception proves the rule. Ignore the fact he had 5 D1 offers, including at least 2 in the B1G. Ignore the fact that Wis also has Dekker (5 star), Hayes (4 star), Koenig (4 star), and Kaminsky, Gasser, and Jackson were all 3's stars.

But hey, you're such an awesome evaluator talent, nobody hires you to do this for a living. If you have a problem with making a harmless, general observation about overhyping, then that's your problem. If you don't like what I have to say, prove where I'm wrong, or don't bother responding. It's not really that hard. This is a message board, we are free to express opinions.

Go home little girl.

 

[hooper56]

Cop out, because you know you made it up. LOL. Your responses to me should begin "Dan's fictional tales". You're just making sh*t up as usual. You are the guy who started the argument, not me. It's DanL's bizzaro world, welcome everybody.

You're the clown that thinks rankings are meaningless then cite Kaminsky as your proof. Not reasoning there, Dan, the exception proves the rule. Ignore the fact he had 5 D1 offers, including at least 2 in the B1G. Ignore the fact that Wis also has Dekker (5 star), Hayes (4 star), Koenig (4 star), and Kaminsky, Gasser, and Jackson were all 3's stars.

But hey, you're such an awesome evaluator talent, nobody hires you to do this for a living. If you have a problem with making a harmless, general observation about overhyping, then that's your problem. If you don't like what I have to say, prove where I'm wrong, or don't bother responding. It's not really that hard. This is a message board, we are free to express opinions.

What's your problem? If you don't like optimism then don't read Dan's posts. No reason to fight about it.

 

[CanadaHawk]

White was a great college player at Iowa, particularly in transition offense. We'll have trouble replacing him. That won't be done by the frosh. Uhl may help with the transition game and JU has potential to step up there. The seniors and Jok will probably step forward. But we will also be more of a shooting team. Jones and maybe a frosh or 2 will help with that. The frosh are 3*s but have athletic potential and upside. Does that about cover it?

 

[hawk-i bob]

White was a great college player at Iowa, particularly in transition offense. We'll have trouble replacing him. That won't be done by the frosh. Uhl may help with the transition game and JU has potential to step up there. The seniors and Jok will probably step forward. But we will also be more of a shooting team. Jones and maybe a frosh or 2 will help with that. The frosh are 3*s but have athletic potential and upside. Does that about cover it?

its does...I'm interested to see if the combo of Uthoff - Jones - Jok in the game at the same time...will help replace the loss of White's transition game...

this is what makes speculating fun...

 

[PhantomFlyer]

What's your problem? If you don't like optimism then don't read Dan's posts. No reason to fight about it.

Nothing. What is your and everyone else's problem? My comment was benign, surely not inflammatory to cause the apesh*t responses that followed. If you don't like my raising a mild word of caution, then don't read my posts, or don't respond. No reason to go into meltdown mode like I committed some great heresy, shot dan's dog, or spit on Fran's face. Good grief. My initial comments were harmless.

"This isn't a knock on DanL or anything he wrote, I'm pretty excited about this class. I'd say I'm cautiously optimistic and will reserve judgement until we see them play with an Iowa uniform on."

LOL. Yep, those are harsh words on my part, a really debbie downer.

 

[hooper56]

Nothing. What is your and everyone else's problem? My comment was benign, surely not inflammatory to cause the apesh*t responses that followed. If you don't like my raising a mild word of caution, then don't read my posts, or don't respond. No reason to go into meltdown mode like I committed some great heresy, shot dan's dog, or spit on Fran's face. Good grief. My initial comments were harmless.

"This isn't a knock on DanL or anything he wrote, I'm pretty excited about this class. I'd say I'm cautiously optimistic and will reserve judgement until we see them play with an Iowa uniform on."

LOL. Yep, those are harsh words on my part, a really debbie downer.

Ok, now I see what your problem is. Out of touch with reality. Perhaps go and reread what you posted. Here is an example""Dan's fictional tales". You're just making sh*t up as usual. You are the guy who started the argument, not me. It's DanL's bizzaro world, welcome everybody." That is not cordial and in fact those words are accusatory and judgmental.

 

[johnnashhawk]

Appreciate the post Dan

 

[johnnashhawk]

Nothing. What is your and everyone else's problem? My comment was benign, surely not inflammatory to cause the apesh*t responses that followed. If you don't like my raising a mild word of caution, then don't read my posts, or don't respond. No reason to go into meltdown mode like I committed some great heresy, shot dan's dog, or spit on Fran's face. Good grief. My initial comments were harmless.

"This isn't a knock on DanL or anything he wrote, I'm pretty excited about this class. I'd say I'm cautiously optimistic and will reserve judgement until we see them play with an Iowa uniform on."

LOL. Yep, those are harsh words on my part, a really debbie downer.

I'll take ape tit for $600.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

Ok, now I see what your problem is. Out of touch with reality. Perhaps go and reread what you posted. Here is an example""Dan's fictional tales". You're just making sh*t up as usual. You are the guy who started the argument, not me. It's DanL's bizzaro world, welcome everybody." That is not cordial and in fact those words are accusatory and judgmental.

Oh, and now you throw in your own not cordial remark with the "out of touch with reality". Perhaps you should stay out of this. Agree, it wasn't cordial and neither were Dan's comments. You don't know the background for his snarky comments (which preceded my comments above) so you should really stay out of it.

And Dan's comments about the 3 players who left weren't accusatory or judgmental? LOL.

 

[RocknRollface]

Fair enough. Outside of Street, none of them had an outside game beyond the arc. Evans was strictly garbage buckets. Earl was 5 feet in. I don't believe you can play the "if they were healthy for 4 years game". Heck, if Recker was healthy he probably goes down as one of the best Hawks. He didn't, so he doesn't. I don't think White should be punished because he stayed healthy, it should be a plus in his favor, much like Ripkin. Mickey Mantle may have been the best player to ever play baseball, if he didn't get hurt, and didn't abuse alcohol. He did though, so he's not.

I also think it's important that the other players played with 1-2 other players, who'd I'd put above anyone on White's teams. Put White on a team like Wis and I think he would have been a beast.

Settles shots 3s as well and was a better all around offensive player.

Evans only scored around the basket but he averaged a double double, was an All American and had a double digit years NBA career.

Same thing with Earl, who cares where his points came from, they still count. Plus all the blocks and rebounds. I don't know too many Iowa fans that would take White over Acie Earl.

And Street was probably the best player in the whole group.

Cumulative stats don't mean nearly as much in college.

White was an excellent player but allot like Marble not a loss that can't be made up for.

Utoff will do very well as the go to.

 

[PhantomFlyer]

Settles shots 3s as well and was a better all around offensive player.

Evans only scored around the basket but he averaged a double double, was an All American and had a double digit years NBA career.

Same thing with Earl, who cares where his points came from, they still count. Plus all the blocks and rebounds. I don't know too many Iowa fans that would take White over Acie Earl.

And Street was probably the best player in the whole group.

Cumulative stats don't mean nearly as much in college.

White was an excellent player but allot like Marble not a loss that can't be made up for.

Utoff will do very well as the go to.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe he's one of the better players to wear an Iowa uniform. Of course, I wouldn't probably knock a single name off a "one of the better Iowa players" list. White was a very good rebounder, was excellent at getting to the line and making FT's, and probably ran the fast break better than any Iowa big man ever has. Again, all the players you listed had another stud playing on their team, which means the focused wasn't concentrated on them. Outside of White's Fr year (with Gatens), White probably played with one of the worst group of shooters beyond the arc. This is certainly true in regards to the other players mentioned. Some also had PG's who demanded double teams or help, because of their ability to beat defenders off the dribble. MG doesn't beat many guys off the dribble and he certainly doesn't necessitate a double team or help when driving against a defender.

I disagree cumulative stats don't mean much. They are objective metrics and are much stronger argument than subjective metrics. I used to use a similar argument your making against Cal Ripkin Jr. Hey, he was very good, but not great, he just piled up a lot of numbers because he played a long time and started every game. Then I realized, that was true, but it didn't mean Ripkin wasn't also a great player. We have a tendency to kind of get lulled to sleep by someone who's steadily good for a long time. We get wowed by the guy who puts together a couple great seasons, and take for granted the guy who's been good and steady throughout.

Finally, once again, I never claimed White is a loss that can't be made up for. Not a single player you mentioned above was a "loss that couldn't be made up for". Michael Jordan was not a loss that couldn't be made up for. No player is irreplaceable, just like no employee is irreplaceable.

 

[CanadaHawk]

Settles shots 3s as well and was a better all around offensive player.

Evans only scored around the basket but he averaged a double double, was an All American and had a double digit years NBA career.

Same thing with Earl, who cares where his points came from, they still count. Plus all the blocks and rebounds. I don't know too many Iowa fans that would take White over Acie Earl.

And Street was probably the best player in the whole group.

Cumulative stats don't mean nearly as much in college.

White was an excellent player but allot like Marble not a loss that can't be made up for.

Utoff will do very well as the go to.

Like a lot of Iowa overachievers, White was strong in intangibles. There are former Hawks (not a lot), that if we could have traded with White, I believe we would have been playing past the 2nd round. Evans was certainly one. But even with White, there were infamous offensive dry stretches. The thing that will be more unstoppable about the offense in 2015 is that it will be more well-rounded = more shooters to go with Woody in the paint and slashers on the wing.

 

[DanL53]

Interesting discussions on White. No doubt it was great to enjoy his efforts as a Hawkeye and we will miss him. That's the nature of the college game, players come and go. Imagine how Wisconsin must be feeling with their losses.

I don't know where I put him on a list of the "best" Hawkeyes ever. So much of what the guys accomplished had as much to do with who was around them and what the competition in the Big Ten was like at the time. And that comment leads me to my point about the BEST thing White did in his four years.

Go back to two seasons ago, 2013/14, and the "collapse". Whatever caused it, when things started falling apart we didn't get, I don't think, a guy that stepped up and led the team out of it's funk. As White said in an interview awhile back, everybody just thought we'd come out of it. Flash forward a year to right after the loss to Northwestern. That was one of the worst games of White's Iowa career, and we were sitting on the brink of an NIT berth.

And White, as a senior should, dug down and found the best basketball he'd ever played! Including hitting three point shots and leaving many of us wondering where that came from.

And I'm guessing he left something behind by doing that, an example to follow for the next bunch of seniors.

 

[hooper56]

And White, as a senior should, dug down and found the best basketball he'd ever played! Including hitting three point shots and leaving many of us wondering where that came from.

And I'm guessing he left something behind by doing that, an example to follow for the next bunch of seniors.[/QUOTE]

This is what changed my mind about White. He really frustrated me with his play over the years. At times he was very tentative and would hang out on the perimeter and fade out. But after that Northwestern game he found within himself a very good basketball player. He was nearly unguardable the rest of the season. Too bad it didn't happen earlier but it was great to watch when it did.

 

[icu81222]

Go back to two seasons ago, 2013/14, and the "collapse". Whatever caused it, when things started falling apart we didn't get, I don't think, a guy that stepped up and led the team out of it's funk. As White said in an interview awhile back, everybody just thought we'd come out of it.

I don't think people realize what a huge impact Patrick McCaffery's cancer diagnoses had on that team and staff down the stretch. Blame the Indiana postponement some but in reality, that is nothing compared to this going on during that stretch of games.

To have your son going into surgery the day of a post season game? There is no way the prep work and focus was done the way it normally would.

Every time I hear discussion about the "collapse", it baffles me how people don't bring this up as THE cause.

 

[hooper56]

I don't think people realize what a huge impact Patrick McCaffery's cancer diagnoses had on that team and staff down the stretch. Blame the Indiana postponement some but in reality, that is nothing compared to this going on during that stretch of games.

To have your son going into surgery the day of a post season game? There is no way the prep work and focus was done the way it normally would.

Every time I hear discussion about the "collapse", it baffles me how people don't bring this up as THE cause.

Oh,this is the truth and absolutely but NO ONE associated with the team will ever use that as an excuse. I think the team actually held up really well given the circumstances.

 

[DanL53]

bump

 

[nu2u]

what did I miss?

 

[DanL53]

what did I miss?

Nothing, was just coming clean for having mentioned that I wouldn't be surprised if Hutton redshirted. But, with the PTL coming to a close soon I was going to update this anyway with my revisions. Soon.