I would love to add a PSU alum like Nolf, Zain, or DT, but when I think of those guys it just seems their loyalty to that program runs to deep to ever come to the “enemies” side. I get them going to other schools to coach just not Iowa. I know money talks and I could be completely wrong and hope I am, just the vibe I get.
Brands Contract Buyout
- Thread starter Hawkfan019
- Start date
I'm not fully in favor of moving on from Brands either but what I can't stand is that they've been very open about not scouting or game planning for matches. He's coached "Iowa Style" and has never moved on from it when it obviously doesn't work anymore. Look at Rutgers right now having a plan for every match and hanging with Penn State better than Iowa did.
Our loyalty runs deep too. The people who "would love to add a PSU alum?" Not so much.
I think it has much more to do with Brands' training system than with assistant coaches' names helping in recruiting (although I don't think that would hurt matters). I've posted about this at-length elsewhere. I had stated that a large proportion of Brands' wrestlers stagnate or even regress after spending multiple years in Brands' program. I decided to test my theory and found the following regarding Brands' All-Americans:
# of Iowa wrestlers to AA during Brands' tenure at the helm:
40
*Technically 39, but I included Tsirtsis because he AA’d for Zalesky and spent 3 years in Brands’ system after that.
# of Iowa wrestlers to wrestle for Brands for longer than two seasons and AA during Brands' tenure at the helm:
34
*Mark Perry, Eric Luedke, Matt Fields, Pat Lugo, Jaydin Eierman, and Real Woods wrestled for 2 seasons or fewer for Brands and therefore were not included in my analysis (although it is notable that Eierman DNP'd as a Senior at Iowa due to injury).
9 of 34 wrestlers had their highest (or joint-highest) NCAA finish as a Senior AND only improved/matched their previous best NCAA finish throughout their careers. These wrestlers are as follows:
Luke Lofthouse
Sammy Brooks
Dan Dennis
Nathan Burak
Tony Ramos
Cory Clark
Austin DeSanto
Max Murin
Nelson Brands (counting last season as his Senior season, as he is ineligible this season)
5 of 34 wrestlers had their highest (or joint-highest) NCAA finish as a Senior, but fell down/off the podium between their initial AA finish and their best (or joint-best) finish Senior year (or stagnated further down the podium in the case of Mike Evans in 6th place). These wrestlers are as follows:
Alex Marinelli (6,7,DNP,5)
Jay Borschel (3,DNP,1)
Mike Evans (6,6,6)
Brent Metcalf (1,2,1)
Montell Marion (2,4,2)
20 of 34 wrestlers did not have their highest finish as a Senior. These wrestlers are as follows:
Sam Stoll
Alex Tsirtsis
Grant Gambrall
Alex Meyer
Joey Slaton
Spencer Lee
Dan Erekson
Ethen Lofthouse
Ryan Morningstar
Michael Kemmerer
Charlie Falck
Bobby Telford
Phil Keddy
Matt McDonough
Brandon Sorenson
Derek St. John
Thomas Gilman
Keleb Young
Jacob Warner
Tony Cassioppi (counting last season as his senior season, as he is ineligible this season)
Key Takeaways:
*21 of 40 Brands AAs did not achieve their best NCAA placement as a Senior.
*20 of 34 Brands AAs who were in the program for more than 2 seasons did not achieve their best NCAA placement as a Senior.
I have not crunched the numbers like this for any other program or coach (including PSU/Sanderson), but I think these numbers are staggering and reveal a significant trend and a major problem with Brands' training system. I'm interested to get others' opinions on it though. What do we think?
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They get lots of checks. If you haven't noticed, that hasn't solved the problem either. You call it advice if you want, but we all share our thoughts on here. I'll continue sharing mine as long as I please. And there's a big difference between hating on someone and stating they're not the best for the job.
you can hear exactly what he thinks about over training in the podcast with Lex Fridman. He said peaking and burn out are mental and not physical. Link to the podcast
19. But 5 of those 19 only wrestled for Brands for 2 years or less.
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All I said was I don’t have anything against them and I still don’t.
Why would those guys want to come here and work under Brands and the Iowa way? Do you think Brands is open to new training ideas and techniques?
?
Gilman went 4-2-3 during his 3 seasons as starter. Was a one time finalist
Dang it! Thanks, I fixed it.
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I knew something you didn't. I am quite proud of myself.
This video is long, so if you just want to hear Tom's thoughts on recovery start at 8:30, and go to 18:00 for thoughts on over training. You need about 1 minute at each of the above times to understand.
Yeah and look where our deep loyalty has gotten us; a club that can’t produce a world team member, getting demolished by PSU, and honestly a stale boring ass style of wrestling to watch. Good thing the program wasnt loyal back in the day when they decided to hire a former ISU wrestler.
Yes, I do think the Brands are open to new ideas and techniques. (That’s different than a radical change in approach to training.) And why not come to Iowa City? These guys may be looking for opportunities outside HV at some point—what better place than IC to be involved in the wrestling community?
Look at all the former Iowa wrestlers who serve as coaches or assistant coaches around the country. As for me I don’t care where the fresh blood comes from; I just want results.
I totally get it. But for me it'll all about who would be our best option. Most of those PSU wrestlers who's names we throw around seem to be top notch people regardless of where they chose to go to school. I don't think Iowa can do better than Tom Brands, who clearly - at least to me - is one of the top 2 or 3 coaches in the country. And I think Terry Brands is pretty special as well and could lead a top 10 program or better yet take over the HWC which clearly needs some big time love. I look at the U.S. Freestyle Wrestling Rankings each time they come out and I just don't see the HWC represented like it should be. Anyhow, back to the Hawks, I think we need some fresh new ideas from non-Brands' coached personaliities unless we're talking about guys like Spencer and Kem, guys who are outstanding individuals who are offense-minded and can relate to these younger men...and who I believe will help in the recruiting process. From my foxhole it appears our style of wreslting is not where it needs to be and our recruiting is still not where it needs to be despite the fact that we have the best fan base in the country, a new facility on the horizon and so on. Penn State is Penn State, but we should be able to out-recruit every other school most years. The top notch recruits - aside from the guys we pull from the state of Iowa - should want to come to Iowa and we should be doing all we can to get a good batch of them every year...and we're just not there. I'm all for bringing in new personalities that can help Tom Brands improve our style of wrestling and our recruiting, which of course collectively will help us win more.
There are not many current coaches (possibly none) that would be better than Brands except Cael himself. The next great coach will be a young “new school” coach who will run a program like Cael does. He’s revolutionizing college wrestling. These are names like Taylor, Askren, Hall, Cunningham, etc. I personally don’t think replacing Brands is worthwhile unless one of those guys is available.
If Brands is unwilling to do his own recruiting and sends Telford and Morningstar instead, then one thing he definitely needs to do is get Spencer on staff to do the recruiting. Spencer is the one guy in the current Iowa/HWC universe with the gravitas and star power to jump start the recruiting end of it.
If Brands is unwilling to do his own recruiting and sends Telford and Morningstar instead, then one thing he definitely needs to do is get Spencer on staff to do the recruiting. Spencer is the one guy in the current Iowa/HWC universe with the gravitas and star power to jump start the recruiting end of it.
Without looking it up beyond from memory, of:
Taylor
Ruth
Retherford
Nolf
Nickal
Hall
Joseph
Lee
Dean
RBY
4 of these 10 didn’t have their highest placing in their last year either. Maybe it’s more common than you think.
It looks like you included Joseph and Hall as 2 of the 4 underachievers? The 2020 natty's were cancelled so I think you should have reported 2 of 8, not 4 of 10.
Their last year at NCAAs, their 3rd trips, in 2019, each took 2nd. Each had previously taken 1st.
Note the OP wrote: “Tony Cassioppi (counting last season as his senior season, as he is ineligible this season)”
So I’m treating Hall and Joseph the same as the OP treated Cassioppi.
I would call it interesting and wouldn’t use words like staggering . You 100 percent though in my opinion cannot draw a conclusion from the numbers you have to brands training system. It’s one data point and an incomplete one at that.
When you have Spencer , Tony and Warner on the negative side of your data point i don’t think that helps your argument, in fact I’d say it diminishes it.
I see a penn state guy posted some names and mentioned 4-10 adding to that list are names like Rasheed , Alton, can I include Nevills as well . I’d have included berge but the more I think of it he never AA’ed or so I think .
It would be interesting to break it down for all the teams and than think about what the data says
My takeaway from the data is nothing more than division 1 wrestling is really really competive . It takes an awfully special wrestler to AA even once regardless of the year in which they do it.
just throwing out random stuff now but gable , owings, and most likely carr , Lewis end up being negative data points in your analysis . I.e negative because of the conclusion you reach .
Just an opinion …
The Wolf of Main Street
Evictions come fast and cheap in the Midwest U.S., where few protections exist and tenants are rarely guaranteed counsel. Here’s a story of a mega-landlord, a lawyer-influencer, and the tenants they pushed out
www.bloomberg.com
Cunningham = Carl’s secret sauce. Talk to anyone around the program and they will tell you that Casey has a presence that is undeniable, ….. mentally and especially physically.
I think 22 PSU All-Americans under Cael qualify for the “was their last year their best year?” analysis.
I did not look up Cael’s Iowa State coaching years.
I excluded AAs Vallimont (just 2010 with Cael), Nevills (beat out by Cassar), Beard (beat out by Dean), Long, and six on the roster now.
15 of the 22 had (or equaled) their best finish in their last season:
Cyler Sanderson
Molinaro
Wright
Taylor
Ruth
English
Brown
Lawson
Megaludis
Conaway
McIntosh
Retherford
Nolf
Nickal
Lee
Interestingly, 11 of the 15 left as national champions.
7 of the 22 did not have their best finish in their final season:
D Alton
Guilibon
Joseph (2nd)
Hall (2nd)
Cassar (injury)
RBY (2nd)
Dean (7th)
Interestingly, though, 5 of these 7 had been a national champion at least once.
I did not look up Cael’s Iowa State coaching years.
I excluded AAs Vallimont (just 2010 with Cael), Nevills (beat out by Cassar), Beard (beat out by Dean), Long, and six on the roster now.
15 of the 22 had (or equaled) their best finish in their last season:
Cyler Sanderson
Molinaro
Wright
Taylor
Ruth
English
Brown
Lawson
Megaludis
Conaway
McIntosh
Retherford
Nolf
Nickal
Lee
Interestingly, 11 of the 15 left as national champions.
7 of the 22 did not have their best finish in their final season:
D Alton
Guilibon
Joseph (2nd)
Hall (2nd)
Cassar (injury)
RBY (2nd)
Dean (7th)
Interestingly, though, 5 of these 7 had been a national champion at least once.
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This line of thinking is archaic and asinine.
Have heard the same except about Cody. Cody Sanderson for the most part runs practices.
Sorry But that article is so liberal it made my teeth hurt and I am sure Iron Bird probably just threw up a little bit if he read it. Yes Bob Nichols owns a property management company and yes they do in fact charge rent for their properties BUT in all reality ....doesn't that make sense to everyone ? I mean if it wasn't for the COVID era policies who would expect people to live for free and not pay rent besides the people in charge of the government at the time? They gave out BILLIONS of government handouts and then they forced landlords to eat all those losses when they refuse to allow evictions to be carried out. I used to own multiple apartment units and I HATED collecting rent from some people....they played the system and scammed as much as they could...God Forbid I had to file for an eviction if the renters had children or if it was cold outside or if both parents were out of work...they would end up getting a FREE 6 month period to make future plans and to close their accounts and then they walked away without any past balances due...it was and is a SCAM because the Government is forcing landlords to incur losses that would otherwise not be legal. I wish Mr. Nichols the BEST of LUCK and I hope he continues to make money and DONATE EVEN MORE MONEY to the HWC and The Iowa university in general.The Wolf of Main Street
Evictions come fast and cheap in the Midwest U.S., where few protections exist and tenants are rarely guaranteed counsel. Here’s a story of a mega-landlord, a lawyer-influencer, and the tenants they pushed out
The Wolf of Main Street
Evictions come fast and cheap in the Midwest U.S., where few protections exist and tenants are rarely guaranteed counsel. Here’s a story of a mega-landlord, a lawyer-influencer, and the tenants they pushed out
Sounds to me like Bob runs a business that people wrongly perceive to be a charity.
Anyway, to answer the original question, Brands doesn’t have a buyout. If he’s fired they simply just pay him his contract value.
Iowa tends to have more enemies than average, imo. Not sure that’s the norm.
I appreciate your thoughts. However, having Spencer, Tony, and Warner listed as I had them does not diminish the argument that Brands' system results in a high rate of regression. Yes, they had excellent careers. Still, they regressed by their final season in Brands' system according to NCAA finish (regardless of cause, such as Spencer's injuries).
And yes, it is only one data point and incomplete. It is more interesting if you have something to compare it to. So, I just ran the numbers for Sanderson. Here's what I found:
# of wrestlers to AA for Sanderson (ISU/PSU combined):
42
# of Sanderson (ISU/PSU combined) AA's who spent over 2 seasons with Sanderson as head coach:
32
*The following wrestlers were eliminated based on this criteria:
Bertolino
Paulson
Paulson
Backes
Haines
Van Ness
Dean
Beard
Long
Vallimont
# of Sanderson (ISU/PSU combined) AA's who spent over 2 seasons with Sanderson as head coach AND recorded their best NCAA placement in their Senior (or FINAL or MOST RECENT) season:
23
# of Sanderson (PSU only) AA's who spent over 2 seasons with Sanderson as head coach:
27
# of Sanderson (PSU only) AA's who spent over 2 seasons with Sanderson as head coach AND recorded their best NCAA placement in their Senior (or FINAL or MOST RECENT) season:
19
KEY TAKEAWAYS:
% of Brands AA's who spent over 2 seasons with Brands as head coach AND recorded their best NCAA placement in their Senior (or FINAL or MOST RECENT) season: 41% (14 of 34).
% of Sanderson AA's who spent over 2 seasons with Sanderson as head coach AND recorded their best NCAA placement in their Senior (or FINAL or MOST RECENT) season: 72% (23 of 32).
*If you remove Starocci, Brooks, Kerkvliet, and Bartlett (who have spent over 2 seasons with Sanderson as head coach, but have not finished their final year), then Sanderson sits at 68% (19 of 28).
*If you remove Starocci, Brooks, Kerkvliet, and Bartlett AND only focus on Sanderson's PSU time, then Sanderson sits at 65% (15 of 23).
23 of 32 (72%) Sanderson AA's who wrestled for Sanderson for more than 2 seasons recorded their best NCAA placement as a Senior (or in their final or most recent season).
14 of 34 (41%) Brands AA's who wrestled for Brands for more than 2 seasons recorded their best NCAA placement as a Senior (or in their final or most recent season).
Maybe there's more of an issue with wrestlers regressing (according to NCAA placement) under Brands than you think..
Yeah - it looks like you might be on to something. I didn’t think so at first but when I did the full analysis, it showed differently.
Of course, we’d have to do the same analysis with Ryan, Smith and Koll (at least) before we could identify which is the outlier.
I counted 27 that qualify from Sanderson's time at PSU, 23 if you exclude guys who are still competing (Starocci, Brooks, Kerkvliet, and Bartlett).
I counted 32 that qualify from Sanderson's time at PSU AND ISU, 28 if you exclude guys who are still competing (Starocci, Brooks, Kerkvliet, and Bartlett).
I had edited it right before you responded. I listed who I excluded. I could easily be off by a person or two and an exclusion or two was judgement. But the story is the same. Good job pointing to this.
Now who wants to analyze Ryan, Smith and Koll?
Yes, I do think it would be great to run these numbers with other schools (quit making more work for me
). I can try to get to some others at some point.Regardless of who the outlier is, I think this shows a major deficit in Brands' system when compared with Sanderson's.
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