Carl Sagan on the Existence of God
- Thread starter What Would Jesus Do?
- Start date
It's not the eating of human flesh. It's not like eating your flesh. It's a different essence.
Jesus is God and said it was necessary for salvation.
Simple: they believed in one true God. Jesus disciples didn’t believe in a triune God. The news of Jesus day didn’t practice that either .
Not to mention the nearly 2400 years before Jesus arrived on the scene .
The people who wrote the Bible were imperfect humans as well. And you're using their work as your only guide.
True enough however the Bible says that men spoke from God. In other words they were given what to write through the operation of Gods Holy Spirit or power.
2Peter 1:20,21-For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.”
So the imperfect humans who wrote the bible claim they received divine inspiration and so the words were perfect even though they (the humans) were not. However, as imperfect humans it seems as likely that they were either lying or deluded as that they were truly inspired by god. You still have to trust them and their word.
Christians have put their faith not in god, but in men.
Stick with Jesus and His teachings. The entire New Testament revolves around Him.
That's sticking to what someone else said about Jesus. A bunch of unknowns, actually.
Was Isaiah lying when he accurately wrote about the fall of Babylon some 200 years before it happened?
Including details on how it would happen ?
Waters being diverted to allow the Medes access to the city walls? Or the gates to the city being left open for no explainable reason? That’s pretty amazing detail for a lie that was written two centuries in advance…
They believed in the God of Abraham because that is all Jews knew. There is verse after verse, some of which I've already posted, where Jesus taught he is divine. The Holy Spirit wasn't introduced to anyone until the ascension. Given all of that, there is no way they could've believed in the triune God. You are now being purposely obtuse.
Given that the "prophecy" was likely written well after the events happened, details about the event are not particularly impressive.
I can easily say that in 1990 I predicted the Cubs would win the 2016 World Series. But this is not a prophecy, it is a claim to a prophecy. And it would be a lie.
Here's my issue with "divinely inspired," and maybe you can answer this: If the Bible was indeed inspired, why were the original texts not preserved? And why was the NT canon not decided on for a few hundred years after Christ?
I'm not saying there can't be divine inspiration, every writer has some sort of muse, but when I read your remarks about the divine inspiration of scripture it comes across as you stating that is the proof of the Bible's infallibility. In other words, because the author claims it was inspired by God, therefore it is so. I don't know how you reconcile that with the fact the original texts have been lost and the canon of scripture wasn't decided on until hundreds of years after the books of the NT were originally written. How do you explain that?
Isaiah wrote his book sometime between 780-732 BCE. Babylon didn’t fall until 539, so no it wasn’t written after the events happened. Try again
Scholars believe many sections of the book were written long after that. In particular, the so-called prophecies.
Details on the book of Isaiah.
Pretty sure we just have agree to disagree .
no worries . Everyone having their own beliefs is what makes life interesting .
I included it because of the historians mentioned regarding its authenticity .
I agree that's not a scholarly work. Can you link one which supports your claim?
Here is a start:
Biblical literature - Isaiah, Prophecy, Poetry | Britannica
Biblical literature - Isaiah, Prophecy, Poetry: The Book of Isaiah, comprising 66 chapters, is one of the most profound theological and literarily expressive works in the Bible. Compiled over a period of about two centuries (the latter half of the 8th to the latter half of the 6th century bce)...
www.britannica.com
There are a whole lot of "probablys" in that article.Here is a start:
Biblical literature - Isaiah, Prophecy, Poetry | Britannica
Biblical literature - Isaiah, Prophecy, Poetry: The Book of Isaiah, comprising 66 chapters, is one of the most profound theological and literarily expressive works in the Bible. Compiled over a period of about two centuries (the latter half of the 8th to the latter half of the 6th century bce)...
This is hardly considered scholarly . No more than the one I listed earlier .Here is a start:
Biblical literature - Isaiah, Prophecy, Poetry | Britannica
Biblical literature - Isaiah, Prophecy, Poetry: The Book of Isaiah, comprising 66 chapters, is one of the most profound theological and literarily expressive works in the Bible. Compiled over a period of about two centuries (the latter half of the 8th to the latter half of the 6th century bce)...
However it’s an interesting read. I’m always open to other people’s beliefs.
That’s how things work when you’re trying to piece together things from that long ago. Which is also why when a book from that long ago claims a prophecy, there is automatically doubt.
There is a consensus among scholars that Isaiah was written over centuries by multiple authors.
Those who would credit the book to more than one writer do not feel that it was possible for Isaiah to have foretold nearly two centuries in advance that a ruler named Cyrus would liberate the exiled Jews; consequently they speculate that this was written at a later time, at least after Cyrus began his conquests. (Isa 44:28; 45:1) But they fail to grasp the import of this entire portion of the book, because the material specifically deals with foreknowledge, with the ability of God to tell in advance what would happen to his people. Nearly 200 years in advance this prophecy recorded the name of one not yet born who would conquer Babylon and liberate the Jews. Its fulfillment would definitely prove that it was of divine origin. It was not Isaiah’s estimate of the future, but, as he himself wrote, “this is what Jehovah has said.” (Isa 45:1) Ascribing the writing of this portion of Isaiah to a writer in Cyrus’ time would still not solve the problem for the critics. Why not? Because this portion of the book also foretold in detail events in the earthly life and ministry of the Messiah,Jesus Christ—things even farther in the future. The fulfillment of these prophecies seals the prophecy of Isaiah as divinely inspired and not a collection of the works of impostors
You failed to respond earlier so I'll try again. Isaiah supposedly foretold the downfall of Babylon to the Medes and claimed that every person would die and Babylon would never again be inhabited. Not one word beyond the conquest of Babylon is true. Not one. You tried to shift to a much later "prophecy" where someone (who is likely not Isaiah) supposedly predicts that someone named Cyrus will invade somewhere and you want to substitute THAT for the earlier, very specific prophecy.
So was Isaiah wrong the first time? Not a good look for a "divinely inspired prophet".
No, that’s not how it works. Not surprising that you don’t know how earnest search for the truth works, or that you assign bad motives to anyone who doubts your faith.
Cyrus would invade somewhere ?
About 200 years in advance—long before the king was born—the Hebrew prophet Isaiah mentioned Cyrus by name and described how he would conquer the mighty city of Babylon.
Isaiah 44:24, 27, 28: “This is what Jehovah says, . . . ‘the One saying to the deep waters, “Be evaporated, and I will dry up all your rivers”; the One saying of Cyrus, “He is my shepherd, and he will completely carry out all my will”; the One saying of Jerusalem, “She will be rebuilt,” and of the temple, “Your foundation will be laid.”’”
According to the Greek historian Herodotus, the army of Cyrus diverted the waters of the Euphrates River, which flowed through the city of Babylon. Cyrus’ strategy enabled his troops to enter the city along the riverbed. After taking the city, Cyrus freed the Jews who had been captive in Babylon and allowed them to return and rebuild Jerusalem, which had been destroyed 70 years earlier.
Isaiah 45:1: “This is what Jehovah says to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of to subdue nations before him, to disarm kings, to open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut.”
The Persians entered the city through the massive two-leaved doors in the city wall, which had carelessly been left open. Had the Babylonians been aware of what Cyrus was planning, they could have shut all the gates that opened onto the river. But as it was, the city was defenseless.
This remarkable prophecy is but one of dozens found in the Bible that unerringly came true.aUnlike the predictions of men, often attributed to their false gods, Bible prophecies originate with the One who proclaimed: “From the beginning I foretell the outcome, and from long ago the things that have not yet been done.”—Isaiah 46:10.
Only the true God, whose name is Jehovah, can make such a claim. That name evidently means “He Causes to Become.” It points to his ability to know and shape future events in harmony with his will. It assures us that he is certain to bring about all that he has promised.
I’m not assigning bad motives to anyone at all . Simply a discussion of ideas. All im doing is using the scriptures to support my position. I respect your belief and don’t consider mine to be more important than yours
First, you failed to respond on point to the earlier, more specific Babylon prediction where Isaiah claimed it would fall to the Medes. Second, in his Cyrus "prediction", Cyrus is never said to be invading Babylon. Third, the Babylonian Chronicles and the Cyrus Cylinder both contradict Herodotus on the fall of Babylon.
Under the control of the Assyrian World Power, Babylon figured in various struggles and revolts. Then with the decline of the second world empire, the Chaldean Nabopolassar founded a new dynasty in Babylon about 645 B.C.E. His son Nebuchadnezzar II, who completed the restoration and brought the city to its greatest glory, boasted, “Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built?” (Da 4:30) In such glory it continued as the capital of the third world power until the night of October 5, 539 B.C.E. (Gregorian calendar), when Babylon fell before the invading Medo-Persian armies Under the command of Cyrus the Great.
That fateful night in the city of Babylon, Belshazzar held a banquet with a thousand of his grandees. Nabonidus was not there to see the ominous writing on the plaster wall: “MENE, MENE, TEKEL and PARSIN.” (Da 5:5-28) After suffering defeat at the hands of the Persians, Nabonidus had taken refuge in the city of Borsippa to the SW but Jehovah’s prophet Daniel was on hand in Babylon on that night of October 5, 539 B.C.E., and he made known the significance of what was written on the wall. The men of Cyrus’ army were not sleeping in their encampment around Babylon’s seemingly impregnable walls. For them it was a night of great activity. In brilliant strategy Cyrus’ army engineers diverted the mighty Euphrates River from its course through the city of Babylon. Then down the riverbed the Persians moved, up over the riverbanks, to take the city by surprise through the gates along the quay. Quickly passing through the streets, killing all who resisted, they captured the palace and put Belshazzar to death. It was all over. In one night Babylon had fallen, ending centuries of Semitic supremacy; control of Babylon became Aryan, and Jehovah’s word of prophecy was fulfilled.—Isa 44:27; 45:1, 2; Jer 50:38; 51:30-32;
From that memorable date, 539 B.C.E., Babylon’s glory began to fade as the city declined. Twice it revolted against the Persian emperor Darius I (Hystaspis), and on the second occasion it was dismantled. A partially restored city rebelled against Xerxes I and was plundered. Alexander the Great intended to make Babylon his capital, but he suddenly died in 323 B.C.E. Nicator conquered the city in 312 B.C.E. and transported much of its material to the banks of the Tigris for use in building his new capital of Seleucia. However, the city and a settlement of Jews remained in early Christian times, giving the apostle Peter reason to visit Babylon, as noted in his letter. (1Pe 5:13) Inscriptions found there show that Babylon’s temple of Bel existed as late as 75 C.E. By the fourth century C.E. the city was in ruins, and eventually passed out of existence. It became nothing more than “piles of stones.”—Jer 51:37.
Today nothing remains of Babylon but mounds and ruins, a veritable wasteland. (PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 324) The book Archaeology and Old Testament Study states: “These extensive ruins, of which, despite Koldewey’s work, only a small proportion has been excavated, have during past centuries been extensively plundered for building materials. Partly in consequence of this, much of the surface now presents an appearance of such chaotic disorder that it is strongly evocative of the prophecies of Isa. xiii. 19–22 and Jer. l. 39 f., the impression of desolation being further heightened by the aridity which marks a large part of the area of the ruins.”—Edited by D. W. Thomas Oxford, 1967, p. 41
Ok. Apparently we will have to agree to disagree. I’m sure the evidence you presented is the real truth .
If you choose to ignore details that were proven true I don’t know what else to say..
We will just have to call it even…
Just out of curiosity what part of that discussion do you say is incorrect ?
what other information can you present to prove it’s wrong ? Any real facts?
One more chance...was Isaiah correct or not when he "predicted" that Babylon would fall to the Medes, that every inhabitant would be killed, and that Babylon would never again be inhabited? If your answer is yes, please provide citations. If your answer is no, then Isaiah was wrong.
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