Did a case study on HF/KF scoring 40 plus..

[cmhawks99]

Vs the big 10. Before I start I'd like to say...this isn't Anti- either Coach it's pro reality. Let me also say more often than not, not always, but usually I know ahead of time where someone or something is going and I do the study to see if my thinking is right. That can be dangerous because we all have presuppositions and it's important, as Homer would tell you, to let the facts direct your conclusions not your conclusions direct the facts. That's a lesson we all should remember...

So what did I do? I decided to see how many times Hayden scored 40 points plus, versus the big 10 & then KF. I thought that would be a good litmus test and let me just "echo" the critics right off the bat. Yes I understand scoring is up over the last 20 years. However the big 10 competitively is also up & the Big Ten defensively is also up. At least as far as talent & ability, so those things cancel each other out for the most part.

Let me just say before I transcribe the data that I was literally shocked what I found. I was also surprised to find that Iowa offensively is actually trending up in recent years. I was doing it on my phone and I was so surprised by what I kept counting. I recounted and recounted and recounted and scribbled on a notepad and scribbled on a notepad. But was also sitting in a chair and occasionally looking at the TV so please feel free to check me.

21 times Hayden scored over 40 points versus the big 10. It included scoring over 40 9-times versus an absolutely horrible Northwestern. In which they won only three games or less in the season in which we played them.

We only scored over 40 against 3-teams that were over .500.

If I counted correctly 11 of those +40 games came from 79 to 87. Only 10 came in the remaining 11 seasons.

KF for reference has 25 but that's not the surprising part. He had zero the first 2 years..not surprising of course. Hayden had 1 in 79, 1 in 80 vs of course NW. And I don't have an exact number because I didn't chart it. But from 04 to 13 it was pretty dry. I believe only sevenish?

In that timeframe we did truly have some pretty challenging seasons and it is there that many formulated their opinions of KF for eternity.

But here is where I really got surprised. Nine of those 25 came against teams with winning records. Several of them nine win teams and 3 vs 10 win teams.

And most shocking to me, so shocking I have now just gone back and counted for probably the fifth time...nine have come in the last four years.

The 25 wins have included Northwestern, Minnesota and Indiana a lot over the years. But several of those were 9+ win teams and of course there has been Penn State and Ohio State this past year and a 9 or 10 win Nebraska team.

So in review...

Hayden...

21...40 pt games vs BIG
3 vs plus .500 teams
9 vs 3 to 0 win NW
Only 10 last 11 years!

Kirk...

25...40 pt games vs BIG
9 vs plus .500 teams
9 the last 4 years

So in my very uneducated opinion...as we have discussed, we struggle with consistency but we are actually making some improvements and our offense isn't all that much different than it was when HF was here. You could & should IMO make the case we are still trending up where as the last 10 years in the 90s we definitely were not.

This is a cause for hope not for angst. Also not to say one man is better than the other. It's just to state the program is still in good hands and still has upside.

 

[cmhawks99]

Incidentally I'm still so surprised I went back and counted again and it's actually 10 games in the last four years, eight in the last three and 26 total for KF! I forgot the Illinois game this year.

I would have never guessed it. I suppose I too have bought into the constant criticism to a degree.

 

[Bigfann1966]

I wonder how much different it would be if Hayden played 12 games a year. If he didnt have to play the better teams in the BIG because of the rotation. I know it's not KF fault....we have had some soft conference scheduling as of late... Over all pretty equal in terms of success!

 

[Hawk_4shur]

Good analysis OP.

I am a huge HF fan. He was the savior of the Iowa football program. He filled the stadium with fans wearing black & gold. He brought us the Tiger Hawk, ANF and the Pittsburgh Steelers look. He assembled great coaches for a time and brought us the '85 team that will always be my favorite. It was big fun to be an Iowa fan in the 80's.

But, no coach can sustain the kind of trajectory we saw in the '80's. HF endured a lot of the same criticism that KF get's today.

Regarding the offense, it would interesting to see how many times HF's team scored 10 or less v. KF's teams. That's more the concern I have - how many times does the offense just not work at all? I wish we could count "3 and outs" too. Those are a game killer, especially when punting is not good.

The legend of HF continues to grow. I'm ok with that because I loved him as a coach. And, I could certainly accept an argument that he was better than KF - maybe he was. But I don't think he was a lot better.

 

[Herky T Hawk]

I think you’re pointing at one of the maddening aspects about Ferentz. He can have a team that some how puts up over 50 on OSU, yet loses to an average Purdue team a couple weeks later without any major injuries between the two games.

When his teams are on they are unstoppable. We’ve seen that a handful of times throughout his career including the latter half of the 2002 season. But usually it only happens for a game and then they revert back to normal. If they played this year in every game like they did against OSU, we’d be undefeated and prepping for the playoffs with a legitimate shot to win it all.

Hayden was awesome and beat up on the little guys a lot. Until the end of his career he rarely had a head scratching loss. But he had fewer unexpected wins against the big boys. For instance 1990 against OSU and 1997 against Michigan are two of those opportunities that he let get away.

 

[ih8iast8]

I wonder how much different it would be if Hayden played 12 games a year. If he didnt have to play the better teams in the BIG because of the rotation. I know it's not KF fault....we have had some soft conference scheduling as of late... Over all pretty equal in terms of success!

The butt hurt strong in you it is.

 

[General Tso]

Interesting. I'd also be curius to see number of game s with less than 14 points. Or avg points per game with one standard deviation each way. And perhaps avg point point differential in wins and losses

 

[UnionFootballFan]

Facts are great.

 

[Lumas Etima]

Nice analysis! Thank you for sharing.

I wonder how many of KF's 40+ games were overtime games. Those games tend to have inflated scores. I would be interested to see how that would factor into this analysis.

Interesting nonetheless!

 

[scotthawk1964]

I think you’re pointing at one of the maddening aspects about Ferentz. He can have a team that some how puts up over 50 on OSU, yet loses to an average Purdue team a couple weeks later without any major injuries between the two games.

When his teams are on they are unstoppable. We’ve seen that a handful of times throughout his career including the latter half of the 2002 season. But usually it only happens for a game and then they revert back to normal. If they played this year in every game like they did against OSU, we’d be undefeated and prepping for the playoffs with a legitimate shot to win it all.

Hayden was awesome and beat up on the little guys a lot. Until the end of his career he rarely had a head scratching loss. But he had fewer unexpected wins against the big boys. For instance 1990 against OSU and 1997 against Michigan are two of those opportunities that he let get away.

I remember Hayden in his teams great years always stubbed there toes against mediocre teams like Indiana, Wisconsin or Michigan State.

 

[anon_8rcdnbko1jbe0]

Interesting information CM. Thanks for the work!

 

[hawkcub]

Interesting information but what I have found over the years and even though this thread there's a group that thinks it's blasphemy to try to even compare the two. That group usually lived through the sixties and seventies.

 

[cmhawks99]

I wonder how much different it would be if Hayden played 12 games a year. If he didnt have to play the better teams in the BIG because of the rotation. I know it's not KF fault....we have had some soft conference scheduling as of late... Over all pretty equal in terms of success!

Well I suppose you could extrapolate out the percentage, you're basically talking about 20 more games. So he likely would've had a couple more 40+ point games.

But honestly KF hasn't missed a ton of gimme's in "this" era BIG.

I'm off today so I decided to kind of look briefly @ what you're talking about. It really is interesting albeit baffling. It's tough to look at comparative scores on a week to week basis during the season. Let alone extra-generational.

Incidentally I'm one to regularly say how volatile college football has gotten over the last 5-10 years but honestly I'm not sure it hasn't always been that way.

I went back and looked at Iowa vs versus Michigan under Hayden and Under KF but interestingly enough the first thing that struck me was this...

In 1981 our breakout year we of course beat Michigan 9-7. That Michigan team was 9-3, we were eight and four and here are the teams we lost to. Not counting of course the Rose Bowl!

12-23 vs 5-5-1 ISU
10-12 vs 6-5 Minne
7-24 vs 7-4 Illinois
Nowadays none of those would be acceptable offense or acceptable losses for KF.

Conversely Michigan beat Minnesota
34-13 and Illinois 70-21...WOW?!

And I say how? Can you imagine the comparative out rage today?

But even more interesting than that Michigan lost to Wisconsin early in the year 21 to 14. We however beat Wisconsin late in the year 17 to 7.

I'm going to say again to you guys that wish I'd fall off a cliff. You really have no clue how frustrated and how angry I sometimes get after a loss. You think I or "we" don't care or it's "acceptable" or we are complacent. But it's not true. I get hostile, hateful thoughts. I wish awful things on the opposing team and various other entities. I got briefly angry at God at one point this last year. That is beyond dumb! But I'm a grown man, I have six children and Im a servant of the Lord and I deal with the public daily. So I have to let that foolishness subside and evaluate things on a linear plane. Which is tough because sports aren't linear.

There are intangible things that are nearly impossible to quantify when it comes to sports.

Last year my daughters basketball team played, I believe Westlake Christian and beat them by 33 points. The next game they lost by two...

The next two times they played them; in the conference tournament and in some other tournament. Maybe the end of the year ACSI tournament they beat them by 20 to 30 again...why?

Some would say coaching because that's what they always say. But although again on a linear level that seems plausible, maybe even "of course"?! But if you really drill down on it, that is just way too simple an answer. At the end of the day the coach always takes the blame. But at the same point in time, there are dynamics going on in sporting events that are difficult to ascertain and "fix" as the game is going on.

Anywhoo back to Michigan...

Hayden played Michigan 16 times Kirk has played them 12 times in one less year.

Hayden played 13 Michigan teams with four or less losses he beat them three times and tied them once.

He had losses of 22, 27, 14, 19, 27, 17, 15 and I think he beat them by double digits once. 26-0 vs 6-6 UM.

Kirk has played six Michigan teams with three or less losses. As I'm now saying this into my phone I'm struggling trying to remember why I decided to use three losses for Kirk. I know at the start it was because I thought since he played an extra game it wouldn't be fair to use the nine when metric for he and Hayden both. So I switched to eight wins versus nine wins and then for whatever reason decided to go to losses. Obviously I'm not a statistician so somebody please feel free to fix my thinking here. But I'm pot committed so I'm moving forward...

Again AnyWhoooo...KF has gone four and six verse those very good Michigan teams.

He has had losses of 13, 14 and, 25 and he has beat Michigan by double digits twice...34-9 vs 10-3 UM and 38-28 vs 7-6.

There are many things here a person could try to Extrapolate out but at the end of the day it doesn't necessarily matter and there is still a ton of conjecture.

Obviously Hayden played more high-end Michigan teams... incidentally I did go back and count, four of those Michigan teams had 4+ losses.... but we also weren't nearly as competitive as I remembered.

Kirk has typically and I know this won't surprise any of us..performs the best versus the "best" teams. He's only had three double digit losses and he's beat four of six really really good Michigan teams. However he has only gone three and four verse average Michigan teams.

But at the same point in time Hayden scored 10 points versus Minnesota who lost to Michigan 34-14 & only scored seven points versus Illinois who lost to Michigan 70-21. Yet he beat Michigan.....

Explain that… You can't?! More importantly as it pertains to today's generation, explain it in the rhetoric you use to lambaste our current staff?!

The number one thing that I've always professed is...if the heavy critic really had enough general understanding of the totality of sports & the bazaar, up-and-down nature that comes week to week, quarter to quarter theyd be less angry and more understanding.

Don't forget two years ago the Cleveland Cavaliers lost to Golden State by 30 points and two days later beat them by 30 points. If you can explain that in lucid terms then I'll take what you say more seriously. But of you course you can't nobody can.

 

[cmhawks99]

Good analysis OP.

I am a huge HF fan. He was the savior of the Iowa football program. He filled the stadium with fans wearing black & gold. He brought us the Tiger Hawk, ANF and the Pittsburgh Steelers look. He assembled great coaches for a time and brought us the '85 team that will always be my favorite. It was big fun to be an Iowa fan in the 80's.

But, no coach can sustain the kind of trajectory we saw in the '80's. HF endured a lot of the same criticism that KF get's today.

Regarding the offense, it would interesting to see how many times HF's team scored 10 or less v. KF's teams. That's more the concern I have - how many times does the offense just not work at all? I wish we could count "3 and outs" too. Those are a game killer, especially when punting is not good.

The legend of HF continues to grow. I'm ok with that because I loved him as a coach. And, I could certainly accept an argument that he was better than KF - maybe he was. But I don't think he was a lot better.

29 for KF....8 his first 2 years.

49 For HF....8 his first two years.

For the record this I've done before and it is as I've always said...people don't remember things accurately. Although to confess I did not remember it being that many.

It's good for me to go back and do this because after a while, as I said before, we all start buying in to the bullshit the critics are selling. And although I get very frustrated about our inconsistency...Kirk Ferentz has been a hell of a coach for us.

Fortunately message board fans don't drive the operation.

Do you know the thing that Hayden was absolutely great at....he was a walking talking PR machine.

KF is not....

 

[cmhawks99]

I think you’re pointing at one of the maddening aspects about Ferentz. He can have a team that some how puts up over 50 on OSU, yet loses to an average Purdue team a couple weeks later without any major injuries between the two games.

When his teams are on they are unstoppable. We’ve seen that a handful of times throughout his career including the latter half of the 2002 season. But usually it only happens for a game and then they revert back to normal. If they played this year in every game like they did against OSU, we’d be undefeated and prepping for the playoffs with a legitimate shot to win it all.

Hayden was awesome and beat up on the little guys a lot. Until the end of his career he rarely had a head scratching loss. But he had fewer unexpected wins against the big boys. For instance 1990 against OSU and 1997 against Michigan are two of those opportunities that he let get away.

Again this is a great conversation so I'm not trying to rattle chains, but that is a misnomer. I will run that down later but Hayden had a ton of head scratching losses, without near as many big time wins.

I actually started to log those losses earlier today anticipating someone would bring this up but I decided it was too much work but I'll do it later.

 

[cmhawks99]

Nice analysis! Thank you for sharing.

I wonder how many of KF's 40+ games were overtime games. Those games tend to have inflated scores. I would be interested to see how that would factor into this analysis.

Interesting nonetheless!

I doubt many if any... I can only recount in memory 2 overtime games whete both teams went past 40 with Iowa State. But I only did Big Ten games for obvious reasons and I don't remember any of those do you?

 

[cmhawks99]

Interesting. I'd also be curius to see number of game s with less than 14 points. Or avg points per game with one standard deviation each way. And perhaps avg point point differential in wins and losses

My hot button personally has always been 17 points... I did that once before but I can do 14 points later.

 

[Hawk_4shur]

29 for KF....8 his first 2 years.

49 For HF....8 his first two years.

For the record this I've done before and it is as I've always said...people don't remember things accurately. Although to confess I did not remember it being that many.

It's good for me to go back and do this because after a while, as I said before, we all start buying in to the bullshit the critics are selling. And although I get very frustrated about our inconsistency...Kirk Ferentz has been a hell of a coach for us.

Fortunately message board fans don't drive the operation.

Do you know the thing that Hayden was absolutely great at....he was a walking talking PR machine.

KF is not....

That is shocking! 41 times at 10 pts or less after his 1st 2 years for HF? Never in my life would I have guessed that many.

HF was, indeed, a PR machine - in the 80's. In the 90's he started getting crabby with the media. In addition (I might wrong about this), I think HF resisted public appearances. I assume he met with donors, but I really don't know.

KF is a pretty good PR guy in his own right, but in a very different way. First, he is 100% class, all the time. His donations back to the U are incredible. And, I think he is very effective with donors.

Two great coaches - two very different guys.

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

Great stuff, it’s interesting what people choose to remember and forget during HF tenure.....great point about personality difference too. HF was charismatic PR machine, KF is often times purposely machine like with cliche answers.....no problem with either method, however; I have a feeling when KF rides of into the sunset will be a sad day for us all-Ferentz fatiguers as well. I honestly think some of you KF “haters” are going to regret your negativity at some point.....fortunately I think that time is coming soon! Very promising future IMO

 

[cmhawks99]

I think you’re pointing at one of the maddening aspects about Ferentz. He can have a team that some how puts up over 50 on OSU, yet loses to an average Purdue team a couple weeks later without any major injuries between the two games.

Hayden was awesome and beat up on the little guys a lot. Until the end of his career he rarely had a head scratching loss. But he had fewer unexpected wins against the big boys. For instance 1990 against OSU and 1997 against Michigan are two of those opportunities that he let get away.

Ok first things first...HF had 70 games that were 14 points or less.

Now I didn't include every loss to six and five or seven and 4 teams that some of our fans disrespect and think we never should lost to. But I did add a few, either because they kept us from having 500 seasons or +500 seasons or maybe even more importantly 9+ wins.

98...
9–27 v 3-8 ISU
7-14 v 4-7 IU
7-49 v 5-6 Minne

97..
14-15 v 5-7 NW

96...
20-26 v 4-7 Tulsa who scored 26 plus only 3 times... as another aside we got crushed 13-40 v 9-3 NW

95...
7-26 v 5-5-1 ILLINI

94...
Tied 4-5-2 PU

93...
3-49 v 5-6 ILLINI

92...
16-27 v 4-7 PU
13-28 v 2-9 MINNE

90...
25-31 v 6-5 Minne that fortunately didn't keep us out of the Rose Bowl but did keep us from nine wins. That loss would be unacceptable by today standards.

89..
7-43 v 6-5 Minne just a baffling uncompetitive loss that kept us from being 6-5

88...
Tied 4-6-1 OSU in a baffling 6-4-3 season.

86...
16-20 v 4-7 ILLINI

84...
17-20 v 6-5 PSU
16-17 v 6-6 MSU
17-23 v 4-7 Minne
In an 8-4-1 season, can you imagine the outrage today?

82...
7-19 v 4-6-1 ISU
7-16 v 3-8 PU

81...
12-23 v 5-5-1 ISU
10-12 v 6-5 Minne

80...
Lost to 3 sub .500 teams one AZ, 3-5 & Minne again 6-24 and 3-7-1 Illini.

79...
7-24 v 4-6-1 Minne

Not a lot of commentary needed. Obviously lost a bunch of strange games to Illinois, Purdue & Minnesota...Indiana not so much.

But to be fair Iowa isn't that abnormal and although Oklahoma has won more total games than us. As I've said several times now since I've been back on the board, they've lost eight games in seven years to double digit underdogs.

So you remember a year or two ago when everyone was up in arms about Iowas double digit losses...it seems that's not as abnormal as Kirks detractors like to pretend.

More and more I'm aware that Hayden Fry was the perfect blend of charisma, confidence & PR to get done what needed done in the 80s. But I don't see how any reasonable person could ever prop him up over KF.

 

[cmhawks99]

That is shocking! 41 times at 10 pts or less after his 1st 2 years for HF? Never in my life would I have guessed that many.

HF was, indeed, a PR machine - in the 80's. In the 90's he started getting crabby with the media. In addition (I might wrong about this), I think HF resisted public appearances. I assume he met with donors, but I really don't know.

KF is a pretty good PR guy in his own right, but in a very different way. First, he is 100% class, all the time. His donations back to the U are incredible. And, I think he is very effective with donors.

Two great coaches - two very different guys.

Truly shocking... in fact I'm walking right now and talking into my phone but even now I have self-doubt and if you want to check me just go to historical college football scores and start counting. By the way great conversation and food for thought guys!

 

[bagdropper]

I find Fry retrospectives fascinating.

I have a Hawk game video collection. Probably about 30 Fry games, never counted them up really. I look back now at those games, and I am struck by how conservative Fry was as a play caller.

Things I find that are interesting...

a) he did pass more than most all B10 teams did - but it's not like he had wild sets compared to the era...he just passed more out of conventional sets than most teams they played.

b) the only truly "innovating" thing he did was the stand-up TE tight on the line.

c) he had the same exact issues attracting quality WR's as Ferentz does - and always had a pretty damn good pair of TE's.

His teams almost always had a "MVB" type or two. John Filloon. Dave Mortiz. Scott Halverson.

d) always had multiple backs in rotation.

e) used the FB a LOT, both rushing and receiving.


Personally, I thought he was quite conservative, yet he is viewed as this wild gunslinger because of the comparisons to the decade prior, when Iowa rarely had a passer cross 1,000 yards in a season, and many times as a team never passed 1,000 total passing yards.

Finally...name Hayden Fry's biggest bowl win. San Diego State? Washington? Texas?

Yikes. The three Rose Bowls...Iowa got STOMPED each time.

I mean...I love the guy. He rescued my Iowa football fandom. But as I have gotten older, I have arrived at the opinion that Fry and Ferentz should be revered equally - and in some ways I give Ferentz the nod because of the Orange Bowl win over GT and the Cap One win over LSU.

I know...crazy talk.

 

[cmhawks99]

I find Fry retrospectives fascinating.

I have a Hawk game video collection. Probably about 30 Fry games, never counted them up really. I look back now at those games, and I am struck by how conservative Fry was as a play caller.

Things I find that are interesting...

a) he did pass more than most all B10 teams did - but it's not like he had wild sets compared to the era...he just passed more out of conventional sets than most teams they played.

b) the only truly "innovating" thing he did was the stand-up TE tight on the line.

c) he had the same exact issues attracting quality WR's as Ferentz does - and always had a pretty damn good pair of TE's.

His teams almost always had a "MVB" type or two. John Filloon. Dave Mortiz. Scott Halverson.

d) always had multiple backs in rotation.

e) used the FB a LOT, both rushing and receiving.


Personally, I thought he was quite conservative, yet he is viewed as this wild gunslinger because of the comparisons to the decade prior, when Iowa rarely had a passer cross 1,000 yards in a season, and many times as a team never passed 1,000 total passing yards.

Finally...name Hayden Fry's biggest bowl win. San Diego State? Washington? Texas?

Yikes. The three Rose Bowls...Iowa got STOMPED each time.

I mean...I love the guy. He rescued my Iowa football fandom. But as I have gotten older, I have arrived at the opinion that Fry and Ferentz should be revered equally - and in some ways I give Ferentz the nod because of the Orange Bowl win over GT and the Cap One win over LSU.

I know...crazy talk.

Yes it really is bizarre...especially when compared to all the vitriol that KF gets....

 

[HawkAlum2002]

I doubt many if any... I can only recount in memory 2 overtime games whete both teams went past 40 with Iowa State. But I only did Big Ten games for obvious reasons and I don't remember any of those do you?

Definitely when we beat PSU in 2002, 42-35, but I think that's the only one.

 

[cmhawks99]

Definitely when we beat PSU in 2002, 42-35, but I think that's the only one.

Yep I forgot about that one thanks for the correction!

 

[cocoem]

Hayden Fry was a Hall of Fame Salesman and people person. He could polarize a group of people quickly ..... he was an average football coach. He turned Iowa into something people could rally around during the farm crisis. That was genius on his part to drum up forever support.

 

[TouchdownMyPants]

He did one other thing really, really well. He was an excellent talent evaluator, particularly in finding talented coaches and prospects and he surrounded himself with greatness.

Hayden Fry was a Hall of Fame Salesman and people person. He could polarize a group of people quickly ..... he was an average football coach. He turned Iowa into something people could rally around during the farm crisis. That was genius on his part to drum up forever support.

 

[Muskie5]

He did one other thing really, really well. He was an excellent talent evaluator, particularly in finding talented coaches and prospects and he surrounded himself with greatness.

So HF surrounded himself with greatness and was only able to garner similar results to what KF has done while surrounding himself with, according to the heroes on this site, mediocre assistants that no one wants and don't move on to be head coaches (with Doyle and Norm Parker being the exceptions), etc... The KF haters on here have now convinced me that KF was/is the better coach as he had to do what he has with very little help. And I hope you 'heroes' won't try to deny that you've been constantly bad mouthing assistants and coordinators for 10 yrs.

In my opinion, very little has changed about Iowa football in the last 38 yrs. Tough, competitive teams who's core has always been big Iowa bred linemen with a sprinkle of undervalued and under recruited athletes from all over the country (mainly places like New Jersey). What has changed is the advent of the internet and sites like this that license the ignorant and the maligned a voice without any consequences for irresponsible or inaccurate 'opinions'.

Through both the HF and KF eras there have been teams and times that have made us believe we could beat anyone and compete for championships, the highest of highs, and times that have left us shaking our heads, feeling lower than low, and wondering if we could do better with different coaches. Yes, being an Iowa fan is a rollercoaster ride. I love the rollercoaster (makes me feel alive and keeps me guessing), but I think there are a lot of fans on here that can't handle the rollercoaster and should probably find a 'tilt-a-whirl' team.

 

[cmhawks99]

So HF surrounded himself with greatness and was only able to garner similar results to what KF has done while surrounding himself with, according to the heroes on this site, mediocre assistants that no one wants and don't move on to be head coaches (with Doyle and Norm Parker being the exceptions), etc... The KF haters on here have now convinced me that KF was/is the better coach as he had to do what he has with very little help. And I hope you 'heroes' won't try to deny that you've been constantly bad mouthing assistants and coordinators for 10 yrs.

In my opinion, very little has changed about Iowa football in the last 38 yrs. Tough, competitive teams who's core has always been big Iowa bred linemen with a sprinkle of undervalued and under recruited athletes from all over the country (mainly places like New Jersey). What has changed is the advent of the internet and sites like this that license the ignorant and the maligned a voice without any consequences for irresponsible or inaccurate 'opinions'.

Through both the HF and KF eras there have been teams and times that have made us believe we could beat anyone and compete for championships, the highest of highs, and times that have left us shaking our heads, feeling lower than low, and wondering if we could do better with different coaches. Yes, being an Iowa fan is a rollercoaster ride. I love the rollercoaster (makes me feel alive and keeps me guessing), but I think there are a lot of fans on here that can't handle the rollercoaster and should probably find a 'tilt-a-whirl' team.

Now this did sound like me...!

Except the part about the roller coaster seasons, I hate them. But I understand they exist, for everyone.

I'm going to start signing off on every thread with this...

Remember, 12-1 Clemson lost to 4-8 Syracuse...Doh!

And Oklahoma has lost 8 games in 7 years to double digit underdogs.

Although to be honest this place is exhausting. I'll be dropping out again soon. I just wanted to dip my toe in to rattle some chains. Very interesting year nationwide and I knew it would be fun to point out football everywhere is starting to look like Iowa City.

Hell the NFL is nutty!

 

[Hawk_4shur]

He did one other thing really, really well. He was an excellent talent evaluator, particularly in finding talented coaches and prospects and he surrounded himself with greatness.

Yes, HF struck gold in the early 80's with his famous coaching tree. Those guys were ambitious (a good thing) and they moved on. The guys HF replaced them with were, I assume, good coaches, but he wasn't able to surround himself with greatness. I'm not saying HF was "lucky" with that first batch, but whatever skill he used at first didn't not continue with subsequent hires.

 

[DodgerHawki]

Now this did sound like me...!

Except the part about the roller coaster seasons, I hate them. But I understand they exist, for everyone.

I'm going to start signing off on every thread with this...

Remember, 12-1 Clemson lost to 4-8 Syracuse...Doh!

And Oklahoma has lost 8 games in 7 years to double digit underdogs.

Although to be honest this place is exhausting. I'll be dropping out again soon. I just wanted to dip my toe in to rattle some chains. Very interesting year nationwide and I knew it would be fun to point out football everywhere is starting to look like Iowa City.

Hell the NFL is nutty!

Thanks for bringing facts to the discussion. I've said before, but both men were perfect for Iowa at the point in time when came along. Fry's understanding of marketing and image was the jolt Iowa needed. Ferentz was the right guy as he understood what Fry had built and had a plan for how he wanted to succeed at Iowa and stuck to it (to his detriment at times).

I'm sure someone will reply to this with all that is separating Iowa from Alabama is having a coach who cares more or tries harder.

 

[cidsports]

Dr. Tom Osborne closed out his career very strong in Nebraska, when early in his career he had plenty of near-misses in reaching the pinnacle of College Football.

While I don't see Kirk Ferentz reaching those heights at Iowa. I do think KF, unlike Hayden Fry, has the coaching staff for a surprisingly strong finish, in the twilight of the coaching career.

The next 3-4 years, if recruiting, development and consistency can fall into place, I think we may see a true 2015 type season, with a stronger Iowa team.

A first Big Ten outright Championship Game win is what I believe may be in Iowa's future. It may not be 2018.

If I speculated, I don't think it will be 2018, but Hopefully, the momentum of an 8-5 season in 2017 will springboard a continued climb in the Big Ten for the Hawkeyes.

#FightForIowa

 

[hawkcub]

Calling Iowa football a rollercoaster is so true. This season is a perfect example of this. We blew out the Big Ten champions but lost to an at best mediocre Purdue team at home. As an Iowa fan you're going to have some high highs and low lows it just comes with the territory.

 

[cidsports]

Stanford beat Notre Dame, but lost to San Diego State.

That's football.

2015 MSU won the Big Ten, but lone regular season loss was at Nebraska.

Look at MSU's fall in 2016 to 1-8, then rebound in 2017.

Iowa's lows aren't typically that much of a bottom out, but Iowa and Michigan each haven't won a Big Ten title, since 2004.

Iowa was a QB injury away from a possible title in 2009 and one drive short in 2015.

That's football

 

[cmhawks99]

Stanford beat Notre Dame, but lost to San Diego State.

That's football.

2015 MSU won the Big Ten, but lone regular season loss was at Nebraska.

Look at MSU's fall in 2016 to 1-8, then rebound in 2017.

Iowa's lows aren't typically that much of a bottom out, but Iowa and Michigan each haven't won a Big Ten title, since 2004.

Iowa was a QB injury away from a possible title in 2009 and one drive short in 2015.

That's football

Cid, I'm tired of you popping in here that reasonable attitude.......Merry Christmas !!

By the way Go Blue Jays!! McDermott has done an outstanding job of taking them to another level and bringing in top notch talent. I'm a big fan of them and Wichita St both and have been for several years!

 

[cidsports]

@cmhawks99

Wichita State is a program I couldn't root for in the MVC. Greg McDermott at Creighton is so much better than Ohio State or Iowa State.

#rolljays

 

[dbrocket]

I wonder how much different it would be if Hayden played 12 games a year. If he didnt have to play the better teams in the BIG because of the rotation. I know it's not KF fault....we have had some soft conference scheduling as of late... Over all pretty equal in terms of success!

I actually disagree with this. At least early in Hayden's tenure, the B1G was known as the big 2 and little 8. There's more parity now. It sucks that we don't play Ohio St. and Michigan St. every year, but most years almost every team is dangerous if you don't bring your A game. We really only play 1-2 legitimately bad teams in conference per year.

 

[robchawk]

I actually disagree with this. At least early in Hayden's tenure, the B1G was known as the big 2 and little 8. There's more parity now. It sucks that we don't play Ohio St. and Michigan St. every year, but most years almost every team is dangerous if you don't bring your A game. We really only play 1-2 legitimately bad teams in conference per year.

My 2 cents worth, HF had the coaching staff and rebuilt the hawks in to a power and if he could have kept that staff together they would have continued that way. But losing Alvarez and then McCarney and Wyatt gutted him but when Snyder left that was it. Look at Snyders yrs, 3 all big 10 QB in Long-Hartlieb-and Rogers, he was also the QB coach remember. After that offense took a dive.
HF sold the program and was perfect for Iowa.

KF is more reserved and let's the actions on the field speak for them selves. More pro style.
Both wanted to have very good defenses to keep you in the games.
When you look back at the evolution in our defense during KF time here, Norm came in and ran an attacking blitz defense. I remember us having 10 guys at the line sometimes. Problem was we would get burned on one or two big plays and lose a game although be in it.
The the Penn St overtime game came and we were using the cover 2, the defense ran over before the 4th down play and was yelling for Norm to run the same D and they did and won.
Since then we have been more of a bend but don't break D which is hard to watch a lot of times but you must admit we very seldom are beaten like we were at Wisc this yr, this D gives us a chance to win,.
We have not had good QB coaching in the KF era, in 19 yrs we have 1 all big ten QB. Our QB rarely get better with age and actually one could argue they go backwards a little.
It will be interesting to see Stanley and the next 2 years with a dedicated QB coach as apposed to having KO be OC and QB coach. See if he can coach him up.

One huge difference between these 2 is the AD, Bump was it. nothing more needs to be said.
Barta has not really shown me he knows the Iowa way. He has turned the program into a money deal and that is fine, we need the resources to win, but when you do this and are not beloved like Bump was, now you must win or people turn you off. SOrt of a pro mentality...

 

[cmhawks99]

My 2 cents worth, HF had the coaching staff and rebuilt the hawks in to a power and if he could have kept that staff together they would have continued that way. But losing Alvarez and then McCarney and Wyatt gutted him but when Snyder left that was it. Look at Snyders yrs, 3 all big 10 QB in Long-Hartlieb-and Rogers, he was also the QB coach remember. After that offense took a dive.
HF sold the program and was perfect for Iowa.

KF is more reserved and let's the actions on the field speak for them selves. More pro style.
Both wanted to have very good defenses to keep you in the games.
When you look back at the evolution in our defense during KF time here, Norm came in and ran an attacking blitz defense. I remember us having 10 guys at the line sometimes. Problem was we would get burned on one or two big plays and lose a game although be in it.
The the Penn St overtime game came and we were using the cover 2, the defense ran over before the 4th down play and was yelling for Norm to run the same D and they did and won.
Since then we have been more of a bend but don't break D which is hard to watch a lot of times but you must admit we very seldom are beaten like we were at Wisc this yr, this D gives us a chance to win,.
We have not had good QB coaching in the KF era, in 19 yrs we have 1 all big ten QB. Our QB rarely get better with age and actually one could argue they go backwards a little.
It will be interesting to see Stanley and the next 2 years with a dedicated QB coach as apposed to having KO be OC and QB coach. See if he can coach him up.

One huge difference between these 2 is the AD, Bump was it. nothing more needs to be said.
Barta has not really shown me he knows the Iowa way. He has turned the program into a money deal and that is fine, we need the resources to win, but when you do this and are not beloved like Bump was, now you must win or people turn you off. SOrt of a pro mentality...

Interesting insights thanks for the input...

 

[dbrocket]

Norm did not blitz. We blitz way more under Phil than we did under Norm (albeit, still not much) and substitute way more. Norm's whole thing was staying in base and preventing the big play. We just had crazy ass DLs and the occasional Bob Sanders, so it felt like we had 10 guys in the box.