Did Brooks Pin Himself?
- Thread starter Chuck C
- Start date
Just watched it again and Yes, it looks like he pinned himself. Maybe even twice.
And would anybody have ever wagered real money that Brooks would get 2 stall calls on him???
this stuff works on my last nerve. i hate non-controlled falls.
letter of the law - could have been called. glad it wasn't.
letter of the law - could have been called. glad it wasn't.
I don't think you can ever call the fall in that situation... Sammy was executing a tilt and was in full control. His opponent never "held" him there and was never close to "controlling" the position.
I agree, Gobblin, and I think the rules should state as much. However, by the letter of the rule, it could be called and we wouldn't have a legitimate gripe. I do think a rules change is in order here.
Speaking of rules, that stalling call on Stoll was horsecrap, but most of us knew this kind of thing was coming. The rule does state that stalling can be called for pushing or pulling the opponent off the mat. I have no doubt that opposing coaches have been reminding refs of this where Iowa is concerned, due to our generally forward-charging style. IMO, the only time a wrestler should be stalled for pushing a guy off the mat is if he's riding and runs the guy OOB so he can't complete an escape.
In this case, Stoll was doing the opposite of stalling. He was controlling the mat, and Smith was backing out whenever Sam got his body lock. I knew this call was a matter of time, however. Hopefully the refs take a good look at this. The last thing we need is for the aggressor to start getting called for stalling on the edge. There's been some positive movement in the rules where edge wrestling is concerned, and I'd hate to see the refs take a step back.
Of course, a push-out rule would solve the whole problem and eliminate this subjectivity while more effectively keeping the action in the center, but the rules committee apparently doesn't have time for any more rules that would actually enhance the sport and reduce controversial calls.
Speaking of rules, that stalling call on Stoll was horsecrap, but most of us knew this kind of thing was coming. The rule does state that stalling can be called for pushing or pulling the opponent off the mat. I have no doubt that opposing coaches have been reminding refs of this where Iowa is concerned, due to our generally forward-charging style. IMO, the only time a wrestler should be stalled for pushing a guy off the mat is if he's riding and runs the guy OOB so he can't complete an escape.
In this case, Stoll was doing the opposite of stalling. He was controlling the mat, and Smith was backing out whenever Sam got his body lock. I knew this call was a matter of time, however. Hopefully the refs take a good look at this. The last thing we need is for the aggressor to start getting called for stalling on the edge. There's been some positive movement in the rules where edge wrestling is concerned, and I'd hate to see the refs take a step back.
Of course, a push-out rule would solve the whole problem and eliminate this subjectivity while more effectively keeping the action in the center, but the rules committee apparently doesn't have time for any more rules that would actually enhance the sport and reduce controversial calls.
You could tell the Rutgers coaches were working with their 84 to defend Brook's tilt. They were screaming and motioning at him as soon as they saw the tilt coming and he responded with a pretty slick move. Damn near worked too, but luckily, the pin didn't get called.
First match of the year where Sammy looked mortal.
First match of the year where Sammy looked mortal.
I'd say Sammy looked more than mortal -- he looked flat-out asleep for 2 periods. Glad he woke up before time ran out.
I'm a huge fan, but that kind of effort would keep him off the podium at Nationals. And I think he belongs on top of the thing.
Not sure exactly what was up tonight, but that was one heck of an uninspired performance. Hopefully he's gotten it out of his system and gets back to being the wrecking ball he's been so far this season. Granted, not against top-tier competition, but he's been a scoring machine nonetheless.
I'm a huge fan, but that kind of effort would keep him off the podium at Nationals. And I think he belongs on top of the thing.
Not sure exactly what was up tonight, but that was one heck of an uninspired performance. Hopefully he's gotten it out of his system and gets back to being the wrecking ball he's been so far this season. Granted, not against top-tier competition, but he's been a scoring machine nonetheless.
I can see where you're coming from with that, WWDM.
But, you gotta give some credit to Gravina. He came out with a full head of steam for the early TD than rode the crap out of Brooks. Gravina's just one of those odd wrestlers who wrestles heavy. He's not going to be a top tier talent like Brooks, but he sure as hell can slow down talents like him.
Brooks will be fine. Just gotta be a bit more careful on future tilts.
But, you gotta give some credit to Gravina. He came out with a full head of steam for the early TD than rode the crap out of Brooks. Gravina's just one of those odd wrestlers who wrestles heavy. He's not going to be a top tier talent like Brooks, but he sure as hell can slow down talents like him.
Brooks will be fine. Just gotta be a bit more careful on future tilts.
Whew!! Take er easy Sammy, wish we could mesh his offensive aggression and Brandon's fundamental perfect position wrestling.
I give Gravina credit. He wrestled an inspired match. That said, he's not on Brooks' level, and that was just a very un-Brooks-like effort tonight. I've said it many times before -- I'm a big fan of Sammy's -- but he just looked out of it tonight, IMO. Not crisp at all on his feet, and he allowed himself to be ridden in a way that shouldn't be happening to high-AA-type guys. I don't mean to detract from Gravina's effort, and I do agree he wrestled a good match, but Sammy wasn't on his game tonight, either. He did get sloppy on that tilt, but I give him credit for sticking with it and finishing when he needed it. That said, I thought the sloppy tilt was among the least of his issues tonight.
I'm confident he'll bounce back and have a great Midlands. Just found his effort tonight very un-Brooks-like.
I think some credit has to be given to the Rutgers coaching staff. They obviously scouted the shit out of Sammy and had their wrestler, who is not on the same level as Sammy, absolutely ready to go and in a position to get an upset. Luckily the cream rose to the top. That's like a farm reference too, isn't it WW?
Gravina was a small kid growing up; he wrestled 103 freshman year and 126 sophomore. So he's a big guy who wrestles like a small guy.
That can be tricky to handle.
Btw, pinned while on top is the single dumbest rule in sports. The only one that was worse was when you couldn't score backpoints when the bottom man's shoulders are OB. Gawd that was a stupid rule.
The ref did what he should do. Give the aggressor the benefit of the doubt. And we are in Carver for crying out loud, we should get a few calls skewed our way. Just enjoy fellas.
Thanks for the insights from the northeast, art -- very interesting stuff. It's great to get that kind of info from a Hawk fan, no less. I really enjoy learning that kind of background on opponents that's otherwise hard to find.
Thanks. My son is a soph in college now, so I'm very familiar with a lot of these NJ kids, especially kids like Giraldo and Gravina who are from nearby towns. I also wrote a blog on North NJ HS wrestling for several years. It's weird to see all these guys who I remember as little kids now wrestling well in college!
I hear ya, art -- we ain't spring chickens anymore! Keep the info coming -- great stuff! Must be really fun for you to watch these kids move on to the college level.
I agree 100%. Unfortunately the official was close to calling it. That flies in the face of them wanting more offense and back points.
I hear what you are saying, but if you are truly "in control," you should also have the mat awareness to not be flat on your back. These guys shouldn't be sleeping on their backs or even letting coeds on top for that matter....
Yep, he was pinned, but got away with it. That's a risk he's going to take when he rolls that tilt through, but I'm not worried about it. It's going to benefit him more than hurt him. No harm no foul.
Opponent doesn't have to have any control for a pin to be called in folkstyle. Freestyle on the other hand...
This is us Chief. If not for the coeds on top, we'd a been D1!
Yeah, it's a dumb mistake. But that doesn't mean it isn't a dumb rule. The defensive wrestler can't score a Near Fall, but he can score a Fall? It's just bizarre.
It's called a defensive fall and is absolutely legit in the rulebook. Control of the other guy putting you there or holding you there is irrelevant. If your shoulders are both touching the mat for a full count, it's a fall, regardelss of position. That being said, that one count is awfully long for most officials in that situation. Benefit of the doubt is usually given.
The ref almost acted like he needed to clean his glasses because he didn't believe what he was seeing.
I recall Alex Tsirtsis getting pinned defensively at NCAAs--I think by Moyer from Nebraska in '07. I don't recall the details of the match--whether Tsirtsis was winning at the time or how close he was to getting backpoints at the time or even what position they were in. Anyone recall that match?
Yeah -- it was a close match. Either tied or maybe a 1-point lead or so one way or the other. I still remember the bewildered look on Alex's face as he got up after the call. He couldn't believe it. We didn't have a great view, but it sure didn't look to us like he was close to being stuck. That said, refs don't usually call defensive falls unless it's quite clear, so I suspect it was the right call.
