Do you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?

[naturalmwa]

I'm not endorsing ANY one, single religion with the following statement.

Yes, they have survived.


They are, in part, the basis for this entire thread. It's fine if anyone wants to believe that the carpenter from Galilee was the "only" Son Of God. And, it's fine if anyone wants to ridicule anyone else who believes that. But, the words, the message, the emphasis on love and forgiveness and to love thy neighbor as thyself, have definitely survived the ages. Now, I can easily go along with those being immortalized because of the collective will and belief of the human race, and not because of one holy guy. In fact, that is exactly what I believe. But, some people like the "one guy" story. The downside is when the organized religions show up to pit one group against the other. Kinda like politics. It's an impediment to the advancement of society, culture and the species, in general. But, human beings have got to be right, above all else.

You're position agrees with my statement. If you think humanity has those lessons independent of the one wise man Jesus guy, then you admit we didn't get revolution from him. But my point is a lot more simple. Jesus didn't write anything. Jesus didn't get others to write anything while he was alive. Not one word he spoke was actually recorded. Everything writers put on his lips was recorded half a century or more after his death by people who never knew him. Nothing anyone attributes to Jesus can verifiably be claimed to have come from his lips. That's fact.

 

[like-woahh]

Here's the thing, you can apply that to every other major religion. The Christian Persecution Complex as a source of validation is one of the most obnoxious ideas ever.

Allow me to extrapolate a bit here. The persistence of your chosen faith doesn't justify the story. Because it has simply survived over the years doesn't make it more right than any other. Other faiths have persisted just as long, if not longer, than your own.

To me, that points to the persistence of people having an internal feeling that there is something greater than themselves. That machinates itself in many different ways, but it's a very common thought among a lot of us.

This is where I take a lot of issue with the idealogues that want to push their very specific and narrow viewpoint of "salvation" onto others and even legislate an entire society based upon it.

If you take the viewpoints of every society that has existed, the concept of God becomes very allegorical. The concept of God to you is very different from the concept of God to another person. The term, "God" has been hijacked by people with an "us vs. them" mentality to create division.

If you take two people and one reads it as a literal interpretation vs. the other who reads it allegorically, you get two very vast interpretations of the same text, and you get that with basically every other religion and thought process across the board.

The concept of God is and has been a beneficial thing to society. It's a good thing to not be selfish, not steal, not murder, think of how your actions affect everyone as a whole. You can glean all of that from a text like the Bible. And that's how I choose to read those stories, much like the stories from many other religious texts.

It's the people who pick and choose passages from these texts to project their own shit onto the world that completely ruin the main message. Unfortunately, those people have a tendency to be very very loud.

 

[strummingram]

Perfect illustration of why it's so successful. It's hard to get people to act logically when just their political concerns are in play. How are they going to act when you toss in an eternity of burning? You found the trigger to turn the brain off. Then you congratulate those who manage to stop thinking.

Yeah, the idea of Hell was a great motivator and incentive! "Let's create an eternal torture chamber that exists in some partially-parallel universe where half-reptile/half-human imps poke people with pitchforks while they float in fire... somehow." I mean, the notion that "God" is so insecure and jealous, that God needs to create a never-ending after-death Auschwitz, just tto drive home the "I told you so" thing is completely antithetical to the entire basis for what God is supposed to be truly about- forgiveness, kindness, love, etc.. They never consider how they create God into the most evil human being they can imagine. I understand people use polarities in order to experience things (no hot without cold), but, that's going a bit too far... for me.

 

[strummingram]

You're position agrees with my statement. If you think humanity has those lessons independent of the one wise man Jesus guy, then you admit we didn't get revolution from him. But my point is a lot more simple. Jesus didn't write anything. Jesus didn't get others to write anything while he was alive. Not one word he spoke was actually recorded. Everything writers put on his lips was recorded half a century or more after his death by people who never knew him. Nothing anyone attributes to Jesus can verifiably be claimed to have come from his lips. That's fact.

art radley cleared that up for you, a few posts above.

 

[strummingram]

True, i don't understand faith either. It's such a ludicrous notion to me that you would believe things without evidance and even be proud that you managed this mental delusion. I would be embarrassed to have faith.

Faith IS belief, in this context. It's just an instinctive belief.

 

[LuteHawk]

God is the Creator of the Universe
Man is a creature in the Universe.

There is a big difference in God's role and man's role
in the universe. Humanity will never fully understand
everything about God and the universe. If man could
have full understanding, then he would be equal to God.
As Christians we honor the difference between God the
Creator and man the creature. Faith in God helps us
to bridge that gap.

 

[naturalmwa]

You have faith, too. You have faith that something (the Universe) can come from nothing. You have faith that man is the sole master of the Universe and that there are no objective human values. You have faith that there is no life after death. Etc., etc.

No, I don't have faith in any of that. I don't even claim to know or believe that. I'm happy with a concept you as a Catholic should appreciate. I'm happy with a bit of mystery. I don't know how the universe got here or our role in it. That's one of my favorite parts of Catholicism. Don't give that up and become another Protestant who needs everything explained.

 

[naturalmwa]

Faith IS belief, in this context. It's just an instinctive belief.

No, that's not correct faith is a belief without reasonable evidance.

 

[like-woahh]

No, I don't have faith in any of that. I don't even claim to know or believe that. I'm happy with a concept you as a Catholic should appreciate. I'm happy with a bit of mystery. I don't know how the universe got here or our role in it. That's one of my favorite parts of Catholicism. Don't give that up and become another Protestant who needs everything explained.

"I don't know" is one of my favorite phrases. It leads to so many great things, because it is often followed by, "but let's try and find out."

I think many people need to internalize that phrase.

 

[strummingram]

No, that's not correct faith is a belief without reasonable evidance.

lol... okay, dude. I forget how you have to be right.
To the people who have the belief, there is an abundance of evidence. Otherwise, they wouldn't believe it. Now, it may not be the evidence YOU find to be worthy, or that I find to be worthy, for ourselves. But, they certainly do.

Hopefully, one day, you'll realize that everyone else's personal experience is different from yours. It's not wrong, it's not lacking, it's just DIFFERENT. It can be frustrating... to you. It can be something you resist and deny. But, you're not "right" and they're not "wrong", or vice versa.

 

[BrianNole09]

"I don't know" is one of my favorite phrases. It leads to so many great things, because it is often followed by, "but let's try and find out."

I think many people need to internalize that phrase.

No one "knows." One either believes or not.

Either you believe or don't. Pick a side...don't be an agnostic

 

[like-woahh]

No one "knows." One either believes or not.

Either you believe or don't. Pick a side...don't be an agnostic

Really, pick a side? You really think questioning and learning from the subsequent questioning is a bad thing.

To be honest with you, the whole "pick a side" thing is one of the most detrimental viewpoints to society as a whole.

 

[BrianNole09]

No, I don't have faith in any of that. I don't even claim to know or believe that. I'm happy with a concept you as a Catholic should appreciate. I'm happy with a bit of mystery. I don't know how the universe got here or our role in it. That's one of my favorite parts of Catholicism. Don't give that up and become another Protestant who needs everything explained.

Fair enough.

You and I will probably meet in Purgatory one day.

 

[THE_DEVIL]

YES!

 

[naturalmwa]

lol... okay, dude. I forget how you have to be right.
To the people who have the belief, there is an abundance of evidence. Otherwise, they wouldn't believe it. Now, it may not be the evidence YOU find to be worthy, or that I find to be worthy, for ourselves. But, they certainly do.

Hopefully, one day, you'll realize that everyone else's personal experience is different from yours. It's not wrong, it's not lacking, it's just DIFFERENT. It can be frustrating... to you. It can be something you resist and deny. But, you're not "right" and they're not "wrong", or vice versa.

This isn't right either. When you debate a person on their beliefs they will have some bit of evidance to back those beliefs up. Some reason for the beliefs. When you talk about experiences, those would be reasons. When you debate faith, that reason will be missing. Eventually they will ask you to believe based on no reason at all, but faith. That's what the concept means. I appreciate that faith is a problematic concept for you too, but you might start by learning the definition.

 

[BrianNole09]

Really, pick a side? You really think questioning and learning from the subsequent questioning is a bad thing.

To be honest with you, the whole "pick a side" thing is one of the most detrimental viewpoints to society as a whole.

Agnostics are the bisexuals of the spiritual world.

 

[naturalmwa]

Fair enough.

You and I will probably meet in Purgatory one day.

I do like that Catholic concept too. It makes a more just God IMO if you get a chance to make up for your faults after you get the facts. Maybe that's what the Ouija board spirits are? Purgatory spirits trying to get right with God. Maybe we should help them?

 

[Urohawk]

My rejection of God is simple. As long as there is 5 year old kid out there somewhere who has cancer than God can piss off. I'll punch him in his vagina when I see him for standing by and doing nothing. If that is the case, then that "God" is terrible. That is my benevolence test. Innocent children suffering from unpreventable catastrophe in the realm of a "benevolent" supreme being is the stuff of nightmares. On the flip side, ask any mother or father if they would trade their life to save their own child. Most would do it without question. That is the definition of love. Now ask God if he will do the same to his children created in his image. Que the people who's response is he sacrificed his own son to save us. My response would by why didn't he sacrifice himself.

 

[strummingram]

This isn't right either. When you debate a person on their beliefs they will have some bit of evidance to back those beliefs up. Some reason for the beliefs. When you talk about experiences, those would be reasons. When you debate faith, that reason will be missing. Eventually they will ask you to believe based on no reason at all, but faith. That's what the concept means. I appreciate that faith is a problematic concept for you too, but you might start by learning the definition.

Oh, absolutely. You certainly know everything.

Not everyone needs your evidence. But keep expecting them to.

 

[strummingram]

My rejection of God is simple. As long as there is 5 year old kid out there somewhere who has cancer than God can piss off. I'll punch him in his vagina when I see him for standing by and doing nothing. If that is the case, then that "God" is terrible. That is my benevolence test. Innocent children suffering from unpreventable catastrophe in the realm of a "benevolent" supreme being is the stuff of nightmares. On the flip side, ask any mother or father if they would trade their life to save their own child. Most would do it without question. That is the definition of love. Now ask God if he will do the same to his children created in his image. Que the people who's response is he sacrificed his own son to save us. My response would by why didn't he sacrifice himself.

So, you blame God for human beings screwing up? That's nice of you!

 

[like-woahh]

Agnostics are the bisexuals of the spiritual world.

Ok so let's pick a side with no nuance.

We have the Catholic church which requires their Priests to be celibate, which goes against every biological function human beings have. This leads to sexual misconduct and the molestation of children, which was covered up by many many Parishes across the country. But let's not change our dogma and address the situation.

That's just one tiny fraction of what the Catholic Church has been tied to in regards to travesties of human civilization over the centuries.

Yeah, pick a side brah.

You aren't tied to God. You're tied to God THROUGH the Catholic Church, which is the the heart of the problem.

 

[strummingram]

No one "knows." One either believes or not.

Either you believe or don't. Pick a side...don't be an agnostic

Why can't I pick my belief based on my experience? There are no "sides." You guys swim around in politics too much.

Everything isn't hot or cold. Sometimes, we learn that there are none of these lines between the understandings. Sometimes we realize that they all sort of flow together.

 

[BrianNole09]

I do like that Catholic concept too. It makes a more just God IMO if you get a chance to make up for your faults after you get the facts. Maybe that's what the Ouija board spirits are? Purgatory spirits trying to get right with God. Maybe we should help them?

I think the Ouiji board spirits are demons.

We can pray for the souls in Purgatory. When they get to Heaven, they'll repay the favor big time.

 

[strummingram]

You aren't tied to God. You're tied to God THROUGH the Catholic Church, which is the the heart of the problem.

Exactly... they're like a manager for a rock band! You can only be famous if we manage you!

 

[strummingram]

I think the Ouiji board spirits are demons.

We can pray for the souls in Purgatory. When they get to Heaven, they'll repay the favor big time.

So, you believe that there is some cavernous "Middle Earth" torture chamber with "demons" that go about torturing the physical bodies of the dead people who were "bad?"

 

[BrianNole09]

Ok so let's pick a side with no nuance.

We have the Catholic church which requires their Priests to be celibate, which goes against every biological function human beings have. This leads to sexual misconduct and the molestation of children, which was covered up by many many Parishes across the country. But let's not change our dogma and address the situation.

That's just one tiny fraction of what the Catholic Church has been tied to in regards to travesties of human civilization over the centuries.

Yeah, pick a side brah.

You aren't tied to God. You're tied to God THROUGH the Catholic Church, which is the the heart of the problem.

Sigh. Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia. That's been proven again and again.

Catholic Priests abused children at a lower rate than the general population in America.

I'm not excusing any abuse but school teachers are more likely to abuse kids than Priests are.

 

[like-woahh]

Sigh. Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia. That's been proven again and again.

Catholic Priests abused children at a lower rate than the general population in America.

I'm not excusing any abuse but school teachers are more likely to abuse kids than Priests are.

Yeah well, Catholic Priests are the child molesters of the Christian world, so.. PICK A SIDE

 

[naturalmwa]

Oh, absolutely. You certainly know everything.

Not everyone needs your evidence. But keep expecting them to.

Using a dictionary would be the very least respect you could show your opposition mate. If you can't be bothered to even learn the concept you want to argue, you should simply remain quiet on the sidelines where you are comfortable. Now you have proved yourself not only a fool, but disrespectful to the very folks you are trying to white knight for. Winning!

 

[naturalmwa]

So, you blame God for human beings screwing up? That's nice of you!

If you're philosophy that we are all gods is right, wouldn't that be appropriate?

 

[strummingram]

If you're philosophy that we are all gods is right, wouldn't that be appropriate?

If you are the philosophy?

Actually, yes, it is the collective choice. I don't believe God is a Super Human parental figure flying in the sky. To base the lack of existence of God because you think that the super-human parental figure in the clouds isn't protecting the weak from the strong, that's not how I see God's role.

 

[strummingram]

Using a dictionary would be the very least respect you could show your opposition mate. If you can't be bothered to even learn the concept you want to argue, you should simply remain quiet on the sidelines where you are comfortable. Now you have proved yourself not only a fool, but disrespectful to the very folks you are trying to white knight for. Winning!

Right, mate. I need to use a dictionary. My vocabulary is very lacking. My grammar, too, mate.

I am quite familiar with the concept I'm arguing. It's just not in-sync with your perception of it. I'm glad I wasn't brought-up Catholic. It has left quite an impression on you.

 

[BrianNole09]

[/QUOTE] ruelike-woahh, post: 3907166, member: 13728"]Yeah well, Catholic Priests are the child molesters of the Christian world, so.. PICK A SIDE[/QUOTE]

Not true, actually.

Protestant sects have had abusers, too. Only 4% of Catholic priests were accused of abuse. That's less than the average guy on the street.

Celibacy doesn't cause pedophilia. Think about it; if you were sentenced to life in prison, would that turn you into a pedo?

I doubt it.

 

[BrianNole09]

So, you believe that there is some cavernous "Middle Earth" torture chamber with "demons" that go about torturing the physical bodies of the dead people who were "bad?"

I think after we die, we either go to heaven, hell or purgatory.

 

[BrianNole09]

Oh, good. Hounded Hawk hasn't been around for so long. It's nice to have another moron pick up the torch.

Thank you, Bill Hicks

 

[strummingram]

I think after we die, we either go to heaven, hell or purgatory.

Okay... but, you're not really assigning any details to those three locations?

 

[HotelAlphaWilcoKilo]

Okay... but, you're not really assigning any details to those three locations?

"Faith" is a detail!

 

[naturalmwa]

Right, mate. I need to use a dictionary. My vocabulary is very lacking. My grammar, too, mate.

I am quite familiar with the concept I'm arguing. It's just not in-sync with your perception of it. I'm glad I wasn't brought-up Catholic. It has left quite an impression on you.

No, you don't get to have a personal perception of the meaning of the religious concept of faith. You either accept what the religious people tell you it means or you are a disrespectful fool.

 

[BrianNole09]

Okay... but, you're not really assigning any details to those three locations?

From the visions I've read about, Heaven is eternal paradise with God and the Saints.

Hell is a burning lake of fire with Satan and Demons. No good. It's forever.

Purgatory is like Hell "lite." Souls there know they're getting to heaven but they have to atone for their sins. Purgatory sucks but it's not as bad as Hell and it's temporary.

I think most people go to Purgatory.

 

[strummingram]

No, you don't get to have a personal perception of the meaning of the religious concept of faith.

Yes, I do. I even have one to prove it.

 

[strummingram]

From the visions I've read about,

Got it. So, it's other peoples' version/visions that you base it on. Not your own personal experience of them.

That's fine. Just wondered.