Do you agree with Trump building a Wall ?

[theIowaHawk]

Cool - say the 50,000 -100,000 are Mormons and Muslims, while the story you link says it's 50,000-100,000 Muslims, and doesn't refer to Mormons at all. No obvious bias there.

Wikipedia - really - a site where anyone can write anything they want?

Please - provide a real source for your claims.

You really do believe it is a myth?

I love when people still attack Wikipedia like they are in middle school in the early 2000s. Like, somehow, NPR can't "write anything they want".

But here is the citation, you know, that Wikipedia included as a footnote:
James Brooke. "Utah Struggles With a Revival of Polygamy. " New York Times [New York, N.Y.] 23 August 1998, Late Edition (East Coast): 12. ProQuest Newsstand. ProQuest. Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. 11 Dec. 2007

Here is another one from that dastardly Wikipedia, but whose link is no longer active:
Brooke Adams, Fundamentalists: Most espouse polygamy as a tenet, but fewer actually practice it as their lifestyle, Salt Lake Tribune, 11 August 2005, as quoted at principlevoices.org, Accessed 8 June 2007

Another from the Salt Lake Tribune, which puts it at a lower number:
"LDS splinter groups growing" by Brooke Adams, August 9, 2005 – SLT Article ID: 10BF07C805DE5990

 

[dandh]

This is a bit ironic now that you are saying Muslims do it while complaining that Mormons don't, stereotyping one while complaining about stereotyping another.

Although thank you for clarifying my misreading of that same link, the 50-100k is specifically about Muslims. The link I posted earlier discusses Mormons.

Are you really that stupid? Do you not realize that it is OK under Islamic doctrine to engage in polygamy, and that polygamy is legal in most Islamic nations?

 

[theIowaHawk]

Are you really that stupid? Do you not realize that it is OK under Islamic doctrine to engage in polygamy, and that polygamy is legal in most Islamic nations?

Are you really that stupid that it is OK under Mormon doctrine to engage in polygamy?

Oh wait, you are claiming that the "mainline" groups speak for all Mormon groups. Therefore, you also believe that all Muslim groups believe the same. Brilliant. Like I said, Irony.

It is estimated that, what, 10-15% of Muslims in nations that allow polygamy practice it, further evidencing your irony....that your claim that Muslims practice it.

 

[dandh]

You really do believe it is a myth?

I love when people still attack Wikipedia like they are in middle school in the early 2000s. Like, somehow, NPR can't "write anything they want".

But here is the citation, you know, that Wikipedia included as a footnote:
James Brooke. "Utah Struggles With a Revival of Polygamy. " New York Times [New York, N.Y.] 23 August 1998, Late Edition (East Coast): 12. ProQuest Newsstand. ProQuest. Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. 11 Dec. 2007

Here is another one from that dastardly Wikipedia, but whose link is no longer active:
Brooke Adams, Fundamentalists: Most espouse polygamy as a tenet, but fewer actually practice it as their lifestyle, Salt Lake Tribune, 11 August 2005, as quoted at principlevoices.org, Accessed 8 June 2007

Another from the Salt Lake Tribune, which puts it at a lower number:
"LDS splinter groups growing" by Brooke Adams, August 9, 2005 – SLT Article ID: 10BF07C805DE5990

Stop changing the topic - you totally blew it by quoting a story about Muslims and trying to claim it included Mormons. Just admit that.

 

[naturalmwa]

Are you really that stupid? Do you not realize that it is OK under Islamic doctrine to engage in polygamy, and that polygamy is legal in most Islamic nations?

It's legal under the theological doctrine of the Mormon sects that practice it too. I'd be a little carful about calling others stupid on this issue when it's clear you don't know what you're talking about but have just decided to white knight for a group that isn't even asking to be defended. Polygamy practicing Mormons think it's the right thing to do. It's not an insult to them. What likely is insulting is your insistence that the LDS gets to dictate their faith to them.

 

[dandh]

Are you really that stupid that it is OK under Mormon doctrine to engage in polygamy?

Oh wait, you are claiming that the "mainline" groups speak for all Mormon groups. Therefore, you also believe that all Muslim groups believe the same. Brilliant. Like I said, Irony.

Mormons are the Church of LDS. Other groups are not Mormons - they are their own groups.

Natural referred to Mormons - not fundamentalist offshoots. Plus, he was completely wrong about the group that practices it most. It's clearly Muslims who are the chief practitioners of polygamy in the United States, per the linked articles.

 

[dandh]

It's legal under the theological doctrine of the Mormon sects that practice it too. I'd be a little carful about calling others stupid on this issue when it's clear you don't know what you're talking about but have just decided to white knight for a group that isn't even asking to be defended. Polygamy practicing Mormons think it's the right thing to do. It's not an insult to them. What likely is insulting is your insistence that the LDS gets to dictate their faith to them.

You are clearly wrong about the group which is the main practitioner of polygamy in the United States. Will you at least admit that? It's clear that more Muslims practice it than any other group.

And it's not legal in accordance with fundamentalist groups doctrine. It's permitted, but that does not make it legal. And those groups are not Mormon - those are fundamentalist groups - like snake handlers and other weirdos.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Stop changing the topic - you totally blew it by quoting a story about Muslims and trying to claim it included Mormons. Just admit that.

I did admit that, very specifically:

This is a bit ironic now that you are saying Muslims do it while complaining that Mormons don't, stereotyping one while complaining about stereotyping another.

Although thank you for clarifying my misreading of that same link, the 50-100k is specifically about Muslims. The link I posted earlier discusses Mormons.

 

[theIowaHawk]

You are clearly wrong about the group which is the main practitioner of polygamy in the United States. Will you at least admit that?

Are you going to keep claiming it is a myth?

 

[theIowaHawk]

Mormons are the Church of LDS. Other groups are not Mormons - they are their own groups.

This is such complete bullshit. Call it whatever you want to make yourself sleep better. Can I decide which groups of people following Jesus Christ are Christians?

They are literal and historical descendants and followers of Joseph Smith, the very basis of the church of JCLDS. Sure THEY say no one else is Mormon, but they don't get to decide. If your problem is with calling them Mormon entirely, then you should understand the very history of that term (derogatory) and not use it at all.

 

[naturalmwa]

You are clearly wrong about the group which is the main practitioner of polygamy in the United States. Will you at least admit that?

Sure, from my very first mention I allowed for that possibility that some other conservative group might be doing it more. I'm not sure the fact has actually been proven however as you got 50-100k Muslims nationwide and 40k Mormons in only utah. Would you admit the Mormons might still be on top? Mormons being in the lead was never my main point, just that it was a law that impacked cons disproportionately. I don't think you read the thread.

 

[theIowaHawk]

It's legal under the theological doctrine of the Mormon sects that practice it too. I'd be a little carful about calling others stupid on this issue when it's clear you don't know what you're talking about but have just decided to white knight for a group that isn't even asking to be defended. Polygamy practicing Mormons think it's the right thing to do. It's not an insult to them. What likely is insulting is your insistence that the LDS gets to dictate their faith to them.

This.

 

[dandh]

I disagree. Mormons are the ones, in America, practicing polygamy. That doesn't mean all Mormons do, nor was that the claim.

Muslims aren't?

 

[theIowaHawk]

Mormons are the Church of LDS. Other groups are not Mormons - they are their own groups.

Natural referred to Mormons - not fundamentalist offshoots. Plus, he was completely wrong about the group that practices it most. It's clearly Muslims who are the chief practitioners of polygamy in the United States, per the linked articles.

Following this logic, these groups are "offshoots" of Christianity, but shouldn't count:

Church of England
Protestantism
Lutheranism
Quakers
Mennonites

 

[theIowaHawk]

Muslims aren't?

I like how your argument has changed. First, it was a MYTH that there are polygamist Mormons, even going so far as to claim that the estimate in Wikipedia was likely made up, then it became that Mormons who practice it aren't actually Mormons, and now it is that Muslims might do it more.

None of which goes supports your very first complaint, that Natural was insulting Mormons by saying there are polygamist Mormons.

 

[dandh]

Sure, from my very first mention I allowed for that possibility that some other conservative group might be doing it more. I'm not sure the fact has actually been proven however as you got 50-100k Muslims nationwide and 40k Mormons in only utah. Would you admit the Mormons might still be on top?

If by top you mean missionary, then yeah, I'd guess they practice that.

But no, I won't. I have too many friends in both groups (Muslim and Mormon) and the attitude toward polygamy is not even close, IMO. I don't know a single Mormon who thinks it's OK. I know many Muslims who think it is.

 

[dandh]

Following this logic, these groups are "offshoots" of Christianity, but shouldn't count:

Church of England
Protestantism
Lutheranism
Quakers
Mennonites

No - you're totally clueless.

 

[dandh]

You really do believe it is a myth?

I love when people still attack Wikipedia like they are in middle school in the early 2000s. Like, somehow, NPR can't "write anything they want".

But here is the citation, you know, that Wikipedia included as a footnote:
James Brooke. "Utah Struggles With a Revival of Polygamy. " New York Times [New York, N.Y.] 23 August 1998, Late Edition (East Coast): 12. ProQuest Newsstand. ProQuest. Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. 11 Dec. 2007

Here is another one from that dastardly Wikipedia, but whose link is no longer active:
Brooke Adams, Fundamentalists: Most espouse polygamy as a tenet, but fewer actually practice it as their lifestyle, Salt Lake Tribune, 11 August 2005, as quoted at principlevoices.org, Accessed 8 June 2007

Another from the Salt Lake Tribune, which puts it at a lower number:
"LDS splinter groups growing" by Brooke Adams, August 9, 2005 – SLT Article ID: 10BF07C805DE5990

Your links don't work.

 

[theIowaHawk]

No - you're totally clueless.

How so? Those aren't "unofficial" offshoots? Hell, most of those are very specifically offshoots of their own choosing, like the Church of England or Lutheranism, very specifically denouncing the "parent" church and changing the rules.

Difference is that they get to be called Christianity (because they are), yet we won't do that for other religions, like Mormonism and Islam, demanding they all rigidly be defined by very specific requirements.

 

[The Tradition]

We're arguing the wrong thing. It a country that values liberty, why shouldn't more than two consenting adults be allowed to enter into a multiparty marriage contract? If the rules of marriage can be stretched to include same-sex unions, why shouldn't it be expanded to include the polyamorous?

 

[naturalmwa]

If by top you mean missionary, then yeah, I'd guess they practice that.

But no, I won't. I have too many friends in both groups (Muslim and Mormon) and the attitude toward polygamy is not even close, IMO. I don't know a single Mormon who thinks it's OK. I know many Muslims who think it is.

And that doesn't change the point at all.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Your links don't work.

I know you realize both of these things: 1) they aren't my links, they are from the Wikipedia article you claimed had no citations and 2) I specifically said the links don't work.

If I cite to a book does it have to be available online to actually count? If you want to look them up yourself there is enough information to allow you to do so.

 

[theIowaHawk]

If by top you mean missionary, then yeah, I'd guess they practice that.

But no, I won't. I have too many friends in both groups (Muslim and Mormon) and the attitude toward polygamy is not even close, IMO. I don't know a single Mormon who thinks it's OK. I know many Muslims who think it is.

Anecdotal evidence for the win folks!

 

[naturalmwa]

We're arguing the wrong thing. It a country that values liberty, why shouldn't more than two consenting adults be allowed to enter into a multiparty marriage contract? If the rules of marriage can be stretched to include same-sex unions, why shouldn't it be expanded to include the polyamorous?

I'm sure they could be, and I wouldn't stand in the way. But I'm not motivated to give Rs voter ID in exchange for polygamy legalization as that's essentially two wins for their team for nothing. That was the original context.

 

[Rustys Dad]

Si senor ... Mucho grande el 'wallo

 

[theIowaHawk]

We're arguing the wrong thing. It a country that values liberty, why shouldn't more than two consenting adults be allowed to enter into a multiparty marriage contract? If the rules of marriage can be stretched to include same-sex unions, why shouldn't it be expanded to include the polyamorous?

A) We aren't a country that "values liberty", at least not in the sense you are discussing, that we must balance all things against every liberty. We have chosen, pretty specifically, which "liberties" we will go to lengths to protect. And even then we disregard them whenever we seem to so choose.

B) You making it a gay-marriage comparison even further "argues the wrong thing". Whether polygamous marriage should be legal is entirely independent of whether gay-marriage should be. Only in your (and people like you) tortured logic does one necessitate the other. The legal support has been fleshed out in many legal opinions at this point, but you seem to keep ignoring them.

The "rules of marriage" weren't "stretched", they were applied. Laws against SSM didn't come in to existence in the US until the late 1990s, when THEY changed the definition of marriage. But even then it is questioning whether two people can be discriminated against on inherent traits, not whether they can be discriminated against because of legal traits (marriage). It isn't about a "definition" of marriage, it is about discrimination and which discrimination is allowed. We have long-standing principles of not allowing discrimination based on inherent and immutable traits, we also have long-standing principles of discriminating based on legal status and contracts.

 

[theIowaHawk]

To summarize my too long and too redundant post:

We can choose whether or not to allow polygamy, the questions as it always really has been with SSM is whether we want to, based on things like safety, abuse, morality, etc. So far the tides aren't in the polygamists favor, although they seem to have strong (faux) support from the anti-SSM crowd. Polygamy and bestiality seem to be the issue of the last few years that conservatives want to push for ... which seems odd.

 

[dandh]

How so?

You're conflating denominations and sects.

 

[theIowaHawk]

You're conflating denominations and sects.

Funny. No, I'm not, you are by doing the opposite with Mormonism. I agree that those are denominations and sects, your logic says they aren't. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't have denominations of Mennonites or Church of Englanders, which under your characterization would refuse to allow them to be Christians.

I'm saying it is more obvious and definitional than that. Those that follow Jesus Christ and his prophets are Christians, including Mormons. Those who follow Joseph Smith and his prophets are Mormons, whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants to call them that or not.

Just like followers of Mohammed and his prophets are Muslims.

You are trying to pick and choose within one religion while not picking and choosing in the others. I've posted about how dangerous that is. One Christian does not necessarily equal another Christian, neither of them are required to believe in the same things ... other than the fundamental idea that Jesus was real and his ideals should be followed.

 

[dandh]

And that doesn't change the point at all.

You've provided no evidence to back your claim that Mormons are the ones practicing polygamy. I have provided evidence that it's primarily Muslims. And, before you remind us that you said Mormons or some other conservative group and try to claim that Muslims are conservative, please don't. The Muslim population in this country is solidly Democratic in their voting, and it's not even close.

 

[theIowaHawk]

You've provided no evidence to back your claim that Mormons are the ones practicing polygamy. I have provided evidence that it's primarily Muslims. And, before you remind us that you said Mormons or some other conservative group and try to claim that Muslims are conservative, please don't. The Muslim population in this country is solidly Democratic in their voting, and it's not even close.

So you are plugging your ears and closing your eyes to the citations that Wikipedia provided?

Wait, you don't think Muslims are conservative? I'm guessing we have different beliefs of what that word means, as you seem to believe it means republican/democrat. Can't say I'm surprised that a Muslims would vote against a group that is wanting to bar them from entering the country and specifically pass laws that enables discrimination against them.

 

[dandh]

Funny. No, I'm not, you are by doing the opposite with Mormonism. I agree that those are denominations and sects, your logic says they aren't. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't have denominations of Mennonites or Church of Englanders, which under your characterization would refuse to allow them to be Christians.

I'm saying it is more obvious and definitional than that. Those that follow Jesus Christ and his prophets are Christians, including Mormons. Those who follow Joseph Smith and his prophets are Mormons, whether the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants to call them that or not.

Just like followers of Mohammed and his prophets are Muslims.

You are trying to pick and choose within one religion while not picking and choosing in the others. I've posted about how dangerous that is. One Christian does not necessarily equal another Christian, neither of them are required to believe in the same things ... other than the fundamental idea that Jesus was real and his ideals should be followed.

Yes, you did. Re-read your post.

 

[dandh]

So you are plugging your ears and closing your eyes to the citations that Wikipedia provided?

Wait, you don't think Muslims are conservative?

No, they are not. They vote heavily Democratic, and favor social programs and big government.

 

[Vroom_C14]

Of course, I agree. And, I think most of the
GOP candidates agree.

And you say??

Do you agree with Hillary building a wall? She said it as well...

 

[zwick99]

Of course, I agree. And, I think most of the
GOP candidates agree.

And you say??

Yes and no. We should build a wall around South Side of Chicago, Camden NJ, North Philly, Detroit, Compton and so on.

TExas should not have a wall. Just leave the borders open and eliminate all the free stuff. Crackdown on companies that hire illegals and seize the assets of illegals. At that point they will leave on their own.

 

[ThorneStockton]

Classic HROT: a thread about building a wall across the southern boarder of the US gets turned into dandh getting owned about the 'myth' of polygamy of Mormons. His chief evidence is his Mormon friends.

 

[theIowaHawk]

No, they are not. They vote heavily Democratic, and favor social programs and big government.

Sorry, I edited, feel free to read it.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Yes, you did. Re-read your post.

Please explain how each of those Christian "denominations and sects" count as Christian denominations and sects but that Mormon groups do not.

 

[dandh]

Classic HROT: a thread about building a wall across the southern boarder of the US gets turned into dandh getting owned about the 'myth' of polygamy of Mormons. His chief evidence is his Mormon friends.

And articles by NPR - but why worry about facts.

I just love morons who want to pipe in about someone being "owned" when they don't bring anything of their own to the table. Very. Weak. Sauce.

 

[naturalmwa]

You've provided no evidence to back your claim that Mormons are the ones practicing polygamy. I have provided evidence that it's primarily Muslims. And, before you remind us that you said Mormons or some other conservative group and try to claim that Muslims are conservative, please don't. The Muslim population in this country is solidly Democratic in their voting, and it's not even close.

There is evidence in play, a 40k number for Utah alone. But I don't need to provide evidence as labeling Mormons as practitioners wasn't my point. Honestly, go bread the thread. Stop posting until you figure out that the context of this was that I was challenged to come up with some illegal sexual taboo. I picked polygamy. I then said polygamy was a conservative thing. Be they Mormons or Muslims, I'm right. What would you have picked?