Also, if Kirk could replicate last year (oh boy!) he would be 139-89 ... amazing how close that is to Fry's record of 143-89 (with those dastardly ties) (20 years vs 18)
ESPN: If Ferentz has not surpassed Fry as #1 All Time Coach, it is certainly close
- Thread starter Franisdaman
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Wait, using that same exact context are you pretending the "shoe" didn't drop on that Hayden season? They lost to OSU (I would say comparably similar to Michigan State '15) and got whipped in the Rose Bowl. If Kirk's "shoe dropped" so did Hayden's, although Hayden's team got far more respect, which was based more on 1984 top 15 ranking and starting the season in the top 5, vs. Kirk's starting in the top 200.
True. I did say it was based on national perception and that I didn't believe it though.
Iowa didn't drop very far after its loss to Michigan State last year, and held up surprisingly well in the polls after the RB.
Both Kirk and Hayden when reaching for the stars have fell flat, no getting around that.
I think it is more impressive to take a cold weather baseball team to the pinnacle of the sport than it is to ride Gable’s coat tail to a couple championships after dominating the sport for 30 years. I think longevity matters, too.
I agree he is above Zalesky. But, I'm not sure you can simply claim it is the "pinnacle of the sport" when there is quite clearly a higher, more important pinnacle to be had. I absolutely agree about longevity.
Taking something that is long-suffering and getting it "in the race", so to speak, still isn't as important as actually winning the race, although it may be far more difficult. Building the base is often far harder than going from a stable base to the championship, but it still isn't as important. That was all my point was.
I am not sure how old you are, but HF won the biggest game in the history of Hawkeye football......and it's not even close IMO. I am not discounting the Orange Bowl win, it was a great win, but beating Michigan in a #1 vs# 2 in 85 was bigger, so much bigger. That day, even though it was fleeting, no football team in the country was better than the Iowa Hawkeyes......and no one would have argued otherwise. That was a good day.
No other game comes close? None of the actual Rose Bowl wins, or games back around the Nile era? Come on.
I would equate the CWS to the Final 4 or BCS Bowl or CFP now. It is what every team strives for at the beginning of the season and if you make it there then anything can happen. That's why I said Banks got them to the pinnacle of the sport even though he didn't win the championship. It is a major achievement. Olson made 1 Final 4 and was only at Iowa for 9 seasons. I think evil's list is pretty spot on. I would only swap KF for Olson and leave Banks where he is. I might even put KF in front of Brands due to KF's longevity and the fact that Brands hasn't won a championship without Gable on staff.
The 2002 season was surreal; no one saw that coming, especially after that 1999 season of one win. We were in the National Championship discussion, too.
You have to remember that ESPN has many more talking heads now (ESPN did not launch until Sep 1979); there is Twitter and Facebook, too, where everybody has a voice and EVERYTHING goes viral. Not too many Colin Cowturds back in Fry's days.
Fry got blown out in 3 Rose Bowls, yet for some reason KF has to win a Rose Bowl?
KF has done a great job in upgrading the facilities; Kinnick will get another upgrade; the operations center is first class. He will be leaving the program in much better shape than Fry did.
So if that's the case would Nile Kinnick, the 1939 Heisman Trophy winner even win the Hiesman today this era?
I stand by what I said. Obviously I cannot speak to the feel around the program in 1939 or 1957-1959, but my reason for making the statement I did......was that on that day in 1985, most (prob damn near all) people involved in College Football would have said that there is not one team better than the Iowa Hawkeyes right now. I doubt, .....not certain but doubt......, that has been true at any other time in their history.
I respectfully disagree with the Rose Bowl part. The last time we won the RB was back in the late 50s when Evy was still coaching. I admit the RB might not mean what it use to However, HF had three shots and KF has one so far. Getting past the RB curse, (always getting whomped badly), and finally winning the thing here in the modern era would be huge for long time Hawk fans like myself.
True, there were fewer bowl games in the early '80s, but a lot of it also depended on where you finished in the standings (see 1988).
Many past Heisman winners probably wouldn't win the Heisman by today's standards........
But since Iowa > everybody.....then the answer is yes.
He's also largely (single-handedly?) responsible for the Dark Ages. That knocks him back, for me.
Gable's record is amazing.. Is this possibly the best record for any coach in any sport ever?
Two heroes in my life - Hayden Fry for leading Iowa to the promise land when I was sure they would never be any good again, and Richard Nixon for ending the draft and keeping me out of Vietnam when my lottery number was 49.
KF may end up with better stats, but Hayden is #1 in my heart forever,
KF may end up with better stats, but Hayden is #1 in my heart forever,
From the outsiders point of view, KF is a better coach than Fry. Fry, while changing the culture at Iowa and turning the program around, Fry was also blessed with a schedule that included a lot of bad teams. MSU best records during the 80's was one 9 win and two 8 win seasons, the rest they were around 500%. Wisconsin was horrible, Northwestern beyond horrible, and ISU was pathetic during the most of the Fry era. Penn. State has been a very good team throughout until the scandal. The only team that has performed worse today then during the 80's and 90's of the power teams has been Michigan, and they are on the way back. OSU was and is the cream, for most of the time period. The rest of the conference through both coaching staffs have been up and down at best, mostly down. Fry left the conference when a lot of the teams that he was beating were on an uptick, manly Wis, NW, ISU,. Those three along with MSU were teams that Fry beat like a drum.
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Juan Harris would have only de-committed from Hayden Fry once. Once.
Now this is a post worth discussing and debating, SouthernCy.
There are legitimate reasons to debate in favor of Ferentz being better at Iowa, but I would disagree with your line of reasoning for that.
Well, here are a few of the non-conference opponents Hayden Fry's teams played during his tenure: Nebraska, Tennessee, Miami (Fl), Arizona, Oregon, NC State, Colorado, and Penn State (prior to Big 10). I don't think Ferentz has ever played anything close to those caliber of teams in the non-conference schedule.
As far as conference opponents are concerned, you do realize there are plenty of bad teams at the bottom of the current B1G, right? Plus, Iowa has avoided a lot of the big boys throughout Ferentz's tenure. So in truth, the conference slate overall for Ferentz has not been any tougher than what Hayden faced. Also, Illinois had a few decent teams under Macovich in the late 80s and early 90s that you didn't mention.
And for the record, Iowa State had 3 teams that Fry faced with a 6-5 record and a handful of teams around 4 or 5 wins for the season--so not that much dissimilar than the current era. You could definitely argue that Ferentz has faced some of Iowa State's best teams and Fry some of their worst, but there have been plenty of mediocre and bad Iowa State teams that both played.
In short, I don't think your argument holds water for the reasons you listed.
I would agree about the non conference teams that Fry faced were higher ranked, but he also played Tulsa, Hawaii, and teams like that. Remember he was the one that really started weakening the nonconference schedule. A couple of the teams you mentioned NC Carolina and Tennessee were in the those early kick off games. I would say KF, just because of how poor NW, Wis, and MSU were a lot of those years. As for ISU that was also the Criner and Waldon years, were we were terrible. Go back and look at Mac's early teams, 2 and 3 win squads. OSU has taken a step up since Meyer got there, no sure if Iowa has played them. To me, the Big 10 is stronger today, than what it has been in a long time. OSU, Mich, MSU, Wis, Neb, and Iowa, through in NW, and Penn. St, its not a bad league, but the bottom teams are pretty bad. Iowa has been either hurt or lucky the last couple of years by playing a lot of those teams.
Nothing personal I just disagree with the points you are making for the following reasons:
1) Yes, of course Hayden had cupcakes on the schedule. Everyone schedules them. Including Coach Ferentz. After all, Iowa played Illinois State and North Texas last year. And there have been plenty more throughout his tenure.
2) You keep referencing how poor NW, Wis, and MSU were back then. NW and Wis indeed were but both had Rose Bowl seasons in the mid-90s while Fry was still at Iowa and were not the perennial doormats they used to be at the end of Fry's Iowa career. Also, George Perles took MSU to seven bowl games and won 2 conference championships (1 outright, 1 tied), so I'm not sure where you are getting that Michigan State was so consistently bad back then from. Furthermore, you didn't mention that Illinois was pretty solid for a few years in the late 80s and early 90s. Also, Indiana went to 6 bowls under Bill Mallory. In short, Hayden Fry wasn't exactly playing in the era of the Big 2 and the Little 8 the Big 10 was once known for during most of his time at Iowa.
3) Iowa State was terrible under Chizik and other than a couple blips on the radar not very good under Paul Rhoads either. Dan McCarney had a couple good teams, but was otherwise coaching 6 win teams or fewer. Yes, what McCarney inherited was terrible. And I will concede the Iowa State teams Fry faced were a little worse on average than what Ferentz has faced. But let's be real: Ferentz has played plenty of bad Iowa State teams as well. The difference is Fry beat Iowa State with regularity. Ferentz not so much.
4) I agree the B1G has gotten better in the 21st Century. But when you look at the conference schedules Iowa has played most years there have been few if any seasons in which you could say their conference schedule was absolutely brutal from week to week. In short, I honestly don't see much of a difference on average from the conference schedules Hayden faced and the ones Ferentz has.
Look, I love Coach Ferentz and think he, albeit not perfect, has done wonderful things at Iowa. What I'm simply saying is I disagree with your arguments on why Ferentz is better than Fry.
My judgement of Fry is not the best in the world, I am bias, against the man. He really seem to relish beating the ISU's and NW's of the world. To me, he was not the genius behind the return of Iowa football, that man was Bill Snyder. Fry got the credit, but Snyder was the calling the offense and running it each week. Go back and look at Fry's record at SMU before Snyder arrived, and afterward, and then after Snyder left Iowa. The record of when they were coaching together and before and after Snyder is shocking in the total number of wins But like I said, I am bias towards Fry. No doubt he left his mark at Iowa and was a great choice for Iowa.
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Well it's good that you admit your bias against people. It kind of tips your hand a little in your fairly strong anti Iowa bias as well. One of the good signs of a strong leader is the ability to recognize talent and hire/recruit that talent to help you win. I am guessing that is what Hayden did. He was at SMU from 1962-1972 as a head coach, I am not an expert but Bill Snyder was never at SMU in an official capacity. Perhaps he was commuting back in forth from California at the time, you know coach Friday, fly to Texas on Saturday? It's odd that at North Texas Hayden had 2 so-so years and in his third year he made the move to a winning program(BS-before Snyder) and stayed there, he then goes to Iowa has 2 so-so years before in his third year they made a move to a winning program(WS-With Snyder) the constant in the two? Hayden Fry. I am sure Hayden feels horrible for enjoying piss pounding your favorite school, it's what you do to a rival when you have the opportunity. I am sure you feel that way when Iowa State does that.......well I guess you will feel that way if Iowa State ever gets into that situation, there is always hope.
It is a fact that Brands hasn't won a Championship without Gable on staff. Would he have won those titles without Gable? Probably. But the fact remains.
I'm talking about a bowl game, that was a awesome win but He never won a major bowl
Major bowl does not include the Peach, Freedom, Holiday, Sun or Alamo. So, HF doesn't have one.
I think this thread shows just how close KF and HF are. I agree with those that the HF narrative of bringing the program back from the dead will be hard to top. KF may possibly pass him with a Rose Bowl win or a CFP berth. A national title would absolutely put him at #1, but that is unlikely.
I think this thread shows just how close KF and HF are. I agree with those that the HF narrative of bringing the program back from the dead will be hard to top. KF may possibly pass him with a Rose Bowl win or a CFP berth. A national title would absolutely put him at #1, but that is unlikely.
Obviously Fry didn't coach during the BCS bowl era so it's hard to compare apples-to-apples.
Both Fry and Ferentz have exactly 6 bowl wins as it stands now, but clearly Ferentz has won bigger bowls than Fry ever did. The 2009 team's Orange Bowl victory was a big one.
Both Fry and Ferentz have exactly 6 bowl wins as it stands now, but clearly Ferentz has won bigger bowls than Fry ever did. The 2009 team's Orange Bowl victory was a big one.
that's fair. And winning the Orange Bowl was my 3rd favorite memory as a Hawk fan, I just would take that Michigan win 10 times out of 10.
Maybe it's partly because I have such fond memories of being a Hawkeye fan during those years. I hope I never forget how I felt after that game..........it was pretty sweet knowing the team that I was so invested in, and at that age a lot more emotional about it as well, was the best in the land hands down. Even though it did blow up a couple weeks later.
I think when you became a Hawkeye fan plays a role in one's opinion on this.
If you became a fan pre HF it's heresy to say KF is better. Because you hold on to how the Hawks were before him.
If you became a fan during HF it's a mixed bag. They both have their positives and negatives.
Post HF you know the history but didn't live it so it's easier to give KF the nod.
If you became a fan pre HF it's heresy to say KF is better. Because you hold on to how the Hawks were before him.
If you became a fan during HF it's a mixed bag. They both have their positives and negatives.
Post HF you know the history but didn't live it so it's easier to give KF the nod.
