Fatal Shooting by Police in Grand Rapids

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Does anyone's opinion change if there was no taser at all?

What about instead of taser, it's a beer bottle, pocket knife, pipe, baseball bat?

Each could cause serious harm and could result in a officer fearing for their safety but they aren't designed to be a weapon like a taser.

Probably not a beer bottle.

This one is a real tossup in a lot of ways. Quite frankly the cop shouldn't have been engaging him on his own. Disengage and then taze.

 

[TJ8869]

Does anyone's opinion change if there was no taser at all?

What about instead of taser, it's a beer bottle, pocket knife, pipe, baseball bat?

Each could cause serious harm and could result in a officer fearing for their safety but they aren't designed to be a weapon like a taser.

I think it boils down to whether or not the officer had a legitimate reason to fear for his safety. If Lyoya had any sort of dangerous weapon and the officer told him repeatedly to put it down but he failed to comply then there is at least the potential for a valid argument that the shooting was justified.

 

[RileyHawk]

Why not?

If it's useless, no need to fight for it. If it's still useable, why get close enough for him to grab it? Fire it again.

If he did miss with the taser it demonstrates the need for more training as well.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

Probably not a beer bottle.

This one is a real tossup in a lot of ways. Quite frankly the cop shouldn't have been engaging him on his own. Disengage and then taze.

It's amazing how easy it is to play cop with the benefit of hindsight. In the real world this cop gave very clear order foe him to get back in his vehicle and the person clearly did NOT want to get.back in that car for whatever reason. At one point the Leo tackled the guy and had him from behind, the guy got up and fought again. Coming from a shithole country and only being here 8 years doesn't give you an excuse to fight a cop.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

If it's useless, no need to fight for it. If it's still useable, why get close enough for him to grab it? Fire it again.

If he did miss with the taser it demonstrates the need for more training as well.

You would be the world's greatest cop, sitting on your couch.

 

[TJ8869]

If it's useless, no need to fight for it. If it's still useable, why get close enough for him to grab it? Fire it again.

If he did miss with the taser it demonstrates the need for more training as well.

Rob Riggle might be available to help them practice.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

If it's useless, no need to fight for it. If it's still useable, why get close enough for him to grab it? Fire it again.

If he did miss with the taser it demonstrates the need for more training as well.

I think there is certainly many things you can point to and say the cop could have done this differently.

However their culpability isn't really based on that but more on a legitimate fear that they could be incapacitated and then killed or killed outright.

So it depends to me on if that taser could be used immediately a second time. If the answer is no then I see this being a criminal charge. If the answer is yes than there is no criminal charge.

 

[RileyHawk]

Rob Riggle might be available to help them practice.

A better clip would be soon after this in the same scene. "In the face!"

 

[TJ8869]

A better clip would be soon after this in the same scene. "In the face!"

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

It's amazing how easy it is to play cop with the benefit of hindsight. In the real world this cop gave very clear order foe him to get back in his vehicle and the person clearly did NOT want to get.back in that car for whatever reason. At one point the Leo tackled the guy and had him from behind, the guy got up and fought again. Coming from a shithole country and only being here 8 years doesn't give you an excuse to fight a cop.

My comment about the cop doing things differently does not indicate my belief that he should face criminal penalties for this incident.

In fact my view regarding criminal penalties hinges on if that taser could as is, be used again immediately.

 

[RileyHawk]

My comment about the cop doing things differently does not indicate my belief that he should face criminal penalties for this incident.

In fact my view regarding criminal penalties hinges on if that taser could as is, be used again immediately.

I agree for the most part. I think this is more of an indictment on police training and strategies.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

It is not difficult for me to acknowledge any of that. It's readily apparent that not following and even sometimes following police instructions can end up getting a person killed. It's a frequent occurrence in this country. It's the reality.

What I bemoan is the acceptance of that acknowledgement, that it's OK, that it's just the way we do things. I like to think we could have higher expectations for police, where they don't kill nearly as many suspects, I like to think there is an alternative where this suspect can act like a piece of shit and get arrested rather than shot in the back of the head.

I also realize we have a heavily armed populace and that police have tremendous legal protections to shoot if they feel threatened. So it's not surprising.

Thanks for the advice about jumping off a high building, truly insightful.

Funny, I bemoan the acceptance that is within the norms for an arrestee to resist arrest, fight the cops, grasp the taser, etc, etc, and expect to come out the other end of that nonsense no worse for the wear.

There is nothing about that video that suggests that the arrestee was in any type of mortal danger with that cop UNTIL he resisted arrest, fought him, ignored multiple desistence commands and also got his hands on the LEO's taser. This is not a "cop" problem, it is a society problem where someone thought, or didn't think, that their actions were super risky to their own safety, not the mention others.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I agree for the most part. I think this is more of an indictment on police training and strategies.

Maybe . . . but I also have some sympathy with the issue that it's easy for Monday morning quarterbacks to sit on their couches and nit pick everything that could have done better.

No matter what amount of training and strategies you are always going to be able to find things the cop could have done differently or better.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I think there are people who would argue that being the first one to use a firearm is escalating. I also agree that it was totally avoidable if the suspect didn't make several bad choices one after another, but that's also not the only way this could have been avoided.

There are thousands of people each year who are arrested rather than killed after wrestling/fighting/resisting with police. This probably could have been avoided in a similar way that those were.

You neatly forgot to include that the arrestee had his hand(s) on the officers taser? Hmmm...why would that be? Because that is when it really got real and shortly thereafter, deadly force was used...appropriately. I wonder how circumspect you would be if your son or daughter was the arresting LEO?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Funny, I bemoan the acceptance that is within the norms for an arrestee to resist arrest, fight the cops, grasp the taser, etc, etc, and expect to come out the other end of that nonsense no worse for the wear.

There is nothing about that video that suggests that the arrestee was in any type of mortal danger with that cop UNTIL he resisted arrest, fought him, ignored multiple desistence commands and also got his hands on the LEO's taser. This is not a "cop" problem, it is a society problem where someone thought, or didn't think, that their actions were super risky to their own safety, not the mention others.

Resisting arrest isn't punishable by immediate execution.

And no matter how good things are, some people are still going to resist arrest.

Cops have to be the responsible ones. They work on our dime and we give them great power and authority over every day people. That amount of power and authority also comes with accountability.

 

[RileyHawk]

Funny, I bemoan the acceptance that is within the norms for an arrestee to resist arrest, fight the cops, grasp the taser, etc, etc, and expect to come out the other end of that nonsense no worse for the wear.

There is nothing about that video that suggests that the arrestee was in any type of mortal danger with that cop UNTIL he resisted arrest, fought him, ignored multiple desistence commands and also got his hands on the LEO's taser. This is not a "cop" problem, it is a society problem where someone thought, or didn't think, that their actions were super risky to their own safety, not the mention others.

To be fair, the "arrestee" never knew he was in mortal danger. He was popped in the back of the head.

 

[ThorneStockton]

Who are you defining as the "suspect"?

I have not ridiculed you.




My immediate response is that I think this cop acted appropriately based odd the Information available. I think, as with everytime a LEO discharges a firearm, the full context needs to be reviewed.


You need to get over the "back of the head" thing. If a cop is going to fire their weapon they do so with the intent to stop the threat immediately. You don't shoot someone in the leg. God knows we have heard the "xxx times shot in the back" story. The Leo had a clean oppuetunity to stop the threat without ricochets. They were wrestling it was not someone in a non threatening situation with hands on head while the other guy fired at him from a sage distance (aka an execution). It cracks me up to read some of you talk about how you think stopping a fight should go or how it should look.

The suspect is the guy resisting arrest, the one shot, the dead guy.

Not a big deal at all, but for clarity, this is the ridicule I was talking about: It may sound good in your head but its not real world.

Regarding the "back of the head" thing. Why would I get over that? To me it's important context. You know, like someone getting shot in the front of the chest versus in the back can also provide some context. A really smart person once said that every time a LEO discharges a firearm, the full context needs to be reviewed. Do you disagree? Assume we're talking about real world here.

 

[RileyHawk]

Maybe . . . but I also have some sympathy with the issue that it's easy for Monday morning quarterbacks to sit on their couches and nit pick everything that could have done better.

No matter what amount of training and strategies you are always going to be able to find things the cop could have done differently or better.

I absolutely agree. I believe the lack of training and strategies for these situations put cops in terrible situations that could have been managed better. I'm advocating for the police to be better prepared.

 

[Whiskeydeltadeltatango]

The suspect is the guy resisting arrest, the one shot, the dead guy.

Roger.

Not a big deal at all, but for clarity, this is the ridicule I was talking about: It may sound good in your head but its not real world.

Charmin bro.

Regarding the "back of the head" thing. Why would I get over that? To me it's important context. You know, like someone getting shot in the front of the chest versus in the back can also provide some context. A really smart person once said that every time a LEO discharges a firearm, the full context needs to be reviewed. Do you disagree? Assume we're talking about real world here.

I agree. And I may be over analyzing what youbare saying but the "back of the head" isn't execution, it was a way to safely discharge and immediately incapacitate. To your point, it's much easier to justify this shooting if they are fighting face to face

 

[ThorneStockton]

Funny, I bemoan the acceptance that is within the norms for an arrestee to resist arrest, fight the cops, grasp the taser, etc, etc, and expect to come out the other end of that nonsense no worse for the wear.

There is nothing about that video that suggests that the arrestee was in any type of mortal danger with that cop UNTIL he resisted arrest, fought him, ignored multiple desistence commands and also got his hands on the LEO's taser. This is not a "cop" problem, it is a society problem where someone thought, or didn't think, that their actions were super risky to their own safety, not the mention others.

Why not make the punishment for resisting arrest, fighting police, grasping for a taster the death penalty? No one should be able to do those things and come out the other end no worse for the wear (dead).

Quite the society you've dreamt up scumbag.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Resisting arrest isn't punishable by immediate execution.

And no matter how good things are, some people are still going to resist arrest.

Cops have to be the responsible ones. They work on our dime and we give them great power and authority over every day people. That amount of power and authority also comes with accountability.

I agree, simply resisting arrest should NOT then immediately authorize a LEO to go straight to the use of deadly force. HOWEVER, there are MANY plausible AND very dangerous scenarios that come IMMEDIATELY to the fore once a detainee begins to actively resist. Every situation is different and it is impossible to game plan every potential detail in advance. When you start fighting the cops though...you are risking losing your life, as this man did.

I would rather err on the side of the LEO, who is working on our behalf here, and make sure that practices and policies maximize their chance to return home safely to their family at the end of every shift.

Now then, if a "trigger happy" or abusive cop takes matters into their own hands, etc, then they should be held fully accountable for their actions. When a detainee starts fighting, etc...well my sympathy fades away very fast. Can we all agree that the man would still be alive had he not escalated the situation...unnecessarily?

 

[ThorneStockton]

You neatly forgot to include that the arrestee had his hand(s) on the officers taser? Hmmm...why would that be? Because that is when it really got real and shortly thereafter, deadly force was used...appropriately. I wonder how circumspect you would be if your son or daughter was the arresting LEO?

Neatly forgot? I assumed that the reader would understand that that concept was captured in the "several bad choices one after another" line. What I did forget is that you have a terrible time comprehending what is written. Hmmm...why would that be? Maybe dyslexia or maybe just a dumbass.

I'm sure I would feel much differently if it was my son or daughter, seems like a pretty natural human reaction.

I wonder how you would feel if it was your son or daughter who was killed in this altercation? Relieved?

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Why not make the punishment for resisting arrest, fighting police, grasping for a taster the death penalty? No one should be able to do those things and come out the other end no worse for the wear (dead).

Quite the society you've dreamt up scumbag.

And there it is...name calling once you have been had. Do I remember correctly...you are a physician? If so, I pity your patients.

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Neatly forgot? I assumed that the reader would understand that that concept was captured in the "several bad choices one after another" line. What I did forget is that you have a terrible time comprehending what is written. Hmmm...why would that be? Maybe dyslexia or maybe just a dumbass.

I'm sure I would feel much differently if it was my son or daughter, seems like a pretty natural human reaction.

I wonder how you would feel if it was your son or daughter who was killed in this altercation? Relieved?

I would feel like a gigantic failure as a parent that I didn't cause my kids to understand not to fight the police and escalate a routine traffic stop into a life or death situation. I would also feel great remorse around the loss of their life of course.

But I am 100% certain that my kids would know far better than to act so irresponsibly, so it really isn't a concern for me. Thanks for asking.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

I agree, simply resisting arrest should NOT then immediately authorize a LEO to go straight to the use of deadly force. HOWEVER, there are MANY plausible AND very dangerous scenarios that come IMMEDIATELY to the fore once a detainee begins to actively resist. Every situation is different and it is impossible to game plan every potential detail in advance. When you start fighting the cops though...you are risking losing your life, as this man did.

I would rather err on the side of the LEO, who is working on our behalf here, and make sure that practices and policies maximize their chance to return home safely to their family at the end of every shift.

Now then, if a "trigger happy" or abusive cop takes matters into their own hands, etc, then they should be held fully accountable for their actions. When a detainee starts fighting, etc...well my sympathy fades away very fast. Can we all agree that the man would still be alive had he not escalated the situation...unnecessarily?

Probably yes.

But the officer came out alive and the suspect did not. So therefore the officer is the only person who can be charged in this case if in fact there is anything to charge him of.

As I said, if he should be charged or not should depend if that taser could be fired a second time immediately as is.

 

[ThorneStockton]

And there it is...name calling once you have been had. Do I remember correctly...you are a physician? If so, I pity your patients.

Been had? There's that reading comprehension again. You do not remember correctly. Terrible memory too. Your handle sure checks out, provided you are actually a wrestling fan.

Try gingko for the memory, I'm not sure there's anything for your other issues.

Do I remember correctly... you are a business owner who took PPP money? If so, I pity the taxpayers.

 

[gohawks50]

I'm not sure the suspect would have understood, but did the officer give a warning before he used deadly force? I think I heard the officer shout a warning before shooting the taser.

 

[biggreydogs]

You would be surprised biggrey.....but those are days gone by.....You assume a lot though....But cops get into trouble more oft than not because they FAIL to exercise proper caution.....Its a damn tough job but bad LEO decisions make it a lot tougher than it needs to be. It is important to remember that generally there is a "perp" who is a little more stupid and shows a little poorer judgment than the LEO... Not always, but generally. Tell me biggrey....If that LEO would have waited in his car and called for back-up...do you think any of this shit would have happened? As a LEO, you dont wanna put yourself in a "Rambo" situation...

How do you have insight on LEO approaches the situation? How do you know he didn’t request backup and none were available because they have been defunded?

 

[seminole97]

The really sad thing is I'm not even sure the suspect WAS acting like a POS. It very well may be that a combination of poor English skills, ignorance on American policing rules (i.e. you never grab the cop’s weapons).

Like I said, complete tragedy for all involved.

FTFY.
I’m sure it’s an entirely American custom to not try and disarm cops.

 

[RollingBallofButcherKnives]

JFC. Here we go again. Same people, same sides. It’s really very simple and all of us know it, but some refuse to accept it because, ya know, politics. And you know damn well this video will only be viewed through political colored lenses.

1. It’s the law to properly register your vehicle. If you do not, you already know you are at risk of being pulled over.
2. When pulled over by LEO, you do not get out of the vehicle unless instructed to do so.
3. Don’t run from LEO.
4. Don’t fight with LEO once you’ve been caught.
5. Never reach for or fight to obtain the LEO’s weapon.

If you do not like rules 1-5, you do not agree with the established rules we have established to live in a free, safe society. You will always be at risk.

Why is this so f*cking hard for some people to understand?

 

[RollingBallofButcherKnives]

Some at more risk than others.

Yeah, law breakers. Arrest resistors. Etc.

 

[RollingBallofButcherKnives]

Unfortunately this situation spiraled out of control and the LEO was in a no win situation and should not be found to be in the wrong.

My issue and has been for most of the situations talked about on HROT is the escalation of events compared to the issue of the initial stop. For example in this situation does chasing after the guy running away warrant the possible outcome that happened here? I mean sure this guy might be a real bad guy or have warrants out, but one officer possibly putting his life in danger worth it especially in the current situation where the suspect if taken into custody will more than likely be released on bail within the end of the day?

Let me repeat, in this situation I believe the cop did what he had to do to protect himself.

Every drunk driver should simply run away then…

 

[AuroraHawk]

Can someone explain to me why the cop felt that he needed to grab the driver of the vehicle as he walked towards the front of the car?

The cop stood next to the driver for more than a minute. At no point did the driver exhibit any hostile or aggressive action towards the cop. If anything, the video showed that the driver appeared to be confused, had difficulty understanding the cop and/or didn't speak/understand English particularly well.

The driver then starts to walk towards the front of the car, the cop says "no, no, no" and says "stop" while simultaneously grabbing both of the driver's arms. Again, why is the cop grabbing him?

Prior to grabbing the driver,
I never heard the cop tell the driver to put his hands on the hood of the car.
I never heard the cop tell the driver that he was being placed under arrest.
I never heard the cop tell the driver to put his hands behind his back.
I never heard the cop tell the driver to get on the ground.
I never heard the cop ask the driver if it was his car.
I never heard the cop ask why the plates weren't supposed to be on that car.

The video reminded me of when my younger brother would try to wrestle with me. He try to trip, kick and throw me down. And even when he did, he counldn't keep me down. I could get back on my knees and/or stand back up. I may have resisted his efforts but didn't do so aggressively. Essentially, I just frustrated his efforts. Pissed him off to no end.

I didn't see anything in the video where the driver was being aggressive towards the cop. He grabbed the taser but pushed it down so he wouldn't get shot by it.

Pretty clear to me that the cop bit off more than he could chew, figured out that he got himself in over his head, figured out that the the driver was a lot stronger than him, got scared when the taser strategy failed miserably and decided to end the struggle with a shot to the back of the driver's head.

 

[RollingBallofButcherKnives]

Police officers really need to be trained more in grappling and not losing their taser so damn easily.

Or people should just not try to take a cops taser.

 

[Crafty Beaver]

Can someone explain to me why the cop felt that he needed to grab the driver of the vehicle as he walked towards the front of the car?

The cop stood next to the driver for more than a minute. At no point did the driver exhibit any hostile or aggressive action towards the cop. If anything, the video showed that the driver appeared to be confused, had difficulty understanding the cop and/or didn't speak/understand English particularly well.

The driver then starts to walk towards the front of the car, the cop says "no, no, no" and says "stop" while simultaneously grabbing both of the driver's arms. Again, why is the cop grabbing him?

Prior to grabbing the driver,
I never heard the cop tell the driver to put his hands on the hood of the car.
I never heard the cop tell the driver that he was being placed under arrest.
I never heard the cop tell the driver to put his hands behind his back.
I never heard the cop tell the driver to get on the ground.
I never heard the cop ask the driver if it was his car.
I never heard the cop ask why the plates weren't supposed to be on that car.

The video reminded me of when my younger brother would try to wrestle with me. He try to trip, kick and throw me down. And even when he did, he counldn't keep me down. I could get back on my knees and/or stand back up. I may have resisted his efforts but didn't do so aggressively. Essentially, I just frustrated his efforts. Pissed him off to no end.

I didn't see anything in the video where the driver was being aggressive towards the cop. He grabbed the taser but pushed it down so he wouldn't get shot by it.

Pretty clear to me that the cop bit off more than he could chew, figured out that he got himself in over his head, figured out that the the driver was a lot stronger than him, got scared when the taser strategy failed miserably and decided to end the struggle with a shot to the back of the driver's head.

You have to be effing kidding me.

We have people walking around us that think this way. This should give us all pause.

 

[Crafty Beaver]

Can someone explain to me why the cop felt that he needed to grab the driver of the vehicle as he walked towards the front of the car?

Let me bite this one off. I'll tell you why...he was about to run.

You could see it from the moment the interaction began. Evasive, nervous, not following instructions.

Why would he walk to the other side of the car, purportedly to get his license when he had just been 8 inches from the passenger & glovebox where this supposed license could be found? I'll tell you why, he was trying to put a little distance between himself & the cop before he took off!

And who the eff cares, anyway. It was the officer's clear right at that point to detain him, based on the lack of cooperation he had already exhibited.

 

[waterboy4582]

Can someone explain to me why the cop felt that he needed to grab the driver of the vehicle as he walked towards the front of the car?

The cop stood next to the driver for more than a minute. At no point did the driver exhibit any hostile or aggressive action towards the cop. If anything, the video showed that the driver appeared to be confused, had difficulty understanding the cop and/or didn't speak/understand English particularly well.

The driver then starts to walk towards the front of the car, the cop says "no, no, no" and says "stop" while simultaneously grabbing both of the driver's arms. Again, why is the cop grabbing him?

Prior to grabbing the driver,
I never heard the cop tell the driver to put his hands on the hood of the car.
I never heard the cop tell the driver that he was being placed under arrest.
I never heard the cop tell the driver to put his hands behind his back.
I never heard the cop tell the driver to get on the ground.
I never heard the cop ask the driver if it was his car.
I never heard the cop ask why the plates weren't supposed to be on that car.

The video reminded me of when my younger brother would try to wrestle with me. He try to trip, kick and throw me down. And even when he did, he counldn't keep me down. I could get back on my knees and/or stand back up. I may have resisted his efforts but didn't do so aggressively. Essentially, I just frustrated his efforts. Pissed him off to no end.

I didn't see anything in the video where the driver was being aggressive towards the cop. He grabbed the taser but pushed it down so he wouldn't get shot by it.

Pretty clear to me that the cop bit off more than he could chew, figured out that he got himself in over his head, figured out that the the driver was a lot stronger than him, got scared when the taser strategy failed miserably and decided to end the struggle with a shot to the back of the driver's head.

If you ever get pulled over try the same strategy and see how it ends.

 

[RollingBallofButcherKnives]

I think there are people who would argue that being the first one to use a firearm is escalating. I also agree that it was totally avoidable if the suspect didn't make several bad choices one after another, but that's also not the only way this could have been avoided.

There are thousands of people each year who are arrested rather than killed after wrestling/fighting/resisting with police. This probably could have been avoided in a similar way that those were.

Dead guy was a fairly thick dude, not every cop can wrestle every perp. That is why said gun was used. Put yourself in the cops position once. You make that scene different. You would have just let him go. After all it was only a mere traffic stop. Why did he resist? Maybe had a gun or a kilo of of coke in the car?

 

[Crafty Beaver]

We should just keep telling people that it's okay to run & resist for minor offenses.

It's a great strategy.

 

[RollingBallofButcherKnives]

I put myself in this officer's shoes. I have a guy who first got out of the car when he shouldn't, doesn't return to it when told to. Then he starts walking away when told not to. When grabbed by shoulder and told "hey, get back here!" then runs into a yard. I suppose at this point the cop *could* have just said eff it and detained the second individual and secured the vehicle, but there is probably some responsibility to not let a suspect loose in a residential neighborhood, because one has to wonder why he's running away from a very simple traffic stop -- is he wanted? Is he carrying?

So the cop makes the choice to try and continue with his effort to detain the suspect. At this point the suspect now escalates the situation by fighting and resisting. So the cop decides to respond by deploying a non-lethal weapon, his taser. At this point, the suspect then GRABS the taser. Now the cop is in a really bad situation -- if he loses control of the taser, and he is the only officer on the scene, what would prevent the suspect from using the taser to incapacitate the cop, at which point the suspect could beat him, stomp him, keep tasing him or grab his service weapon and shoot him? At that point, I don't think the officer has much choice other than being the one to use the service weapon.

I see zero chance this shooting isn't declared 100% justifiable. That doesn't make this a non-tragedy, however.

This is well said.