For all posters (hereby remaining unnamed) that rip on Ellingson...

[hackeysack]

He's a freshman. Let's compare freshman year stats:

Brady Ellingson: 17 games, 11.1 min/g, .511 fg%, .303 3pt%, 3.8 pts/g, 15 reb, 9 ast, 9 to
Peter Jok: 27 games, 9.4 min/g, .400 fg%, .348 3pt%, 4.4 pts/g, 25 reb, 19 ast, 13 to

Meanwhile...
PJ is still "working to get better" on fast breaks and dribble penetration to the basket.
PJ is still not counted on as a rebounder despite his size and athleticism.
Most here considered PJ a liability on defense until a few games ago.
Many here are now expecting PJ to be a candidate for 1st team all B1G next year.

Shooters often rely on volume of shots, and then you see them break into hot stretches and build confidence. Brady doesn't get the minutes for that yet. Stop saying Brady isn't a D1 basketball player or that he might transfer. He's shown us a few nice things this year and doesn't make any more mistakes than anyone else. He's got a beautiful, quick stroke and could very easily be our "assassin" of the future. Not saying he will one day be 1st team all B1G, but he's not a bum either.

Edit: removed wording that some felt was "tearing down" a player. God forbid we mention a player's weakness...especially one that is in consideration for B1G player of the week.

 

[luvmyhawks]

People that rip on our players suck. They are kids, giving it their all for Iowa.

 

[DavenportHawk8]

Ellingson will have a "break-out" yet this year. I realize the kid hasn't shot the ball whole lot and does sometimes get lost of defense. But you have to remember he is a Freshman by playing standards. He sat out all of last year, so this is his first year of game competition.

He has a nice stroke and I think he will find his shot. I just personally like that he accepts his role on the team and when he's in, he isn't chucking up shots or forcing the action. He plays smart and with-in himself. Thats huge, because he can spell Jok and give him a rest.

I look for a game like against a Rugers, Illinois, or someone else to get Ellingson rolling.

 

[Mohawkeye]

PJ is still terrible on fast breaks and dribble penetration to the basket.
PJ is still a below average rebounder for his size and position.
----------
Disagree with both.

Regardless Ellingson, agree fans get too wrapped up in how good players are and not what they could be. We are now seeing the benefit of player development under Fran. Ellingson has the potential to be a Ben Brust type player if he sticks around. I'll take that.

 

[hawkfanmb]

You know what they say, "The best thing about a freshman, they become sophomores." Given time Brady will turn into a fine player for us. Coach must already trust him or he wouldn't be seeing any time.

 

[iowaguy88]

You're comparing true freshman stat to a RS freshman and Jok still had better numbers despite playing in less games, while Ellingson's numbers are only going to continue to go down now that conference play has started.
Ellingson doesn't do anything at the moment, or is even able to get open to get his shot off that would warrant playing time. I'm not sure if he played in the 2nd half at all last night, but between Uhl, Baer, and Wagner our bench is deep enough without needing to get Ellingson in.
Basically, Ellingson is two years removed from high school and since conference play started he's showed he's nowhere near ready to play at this level. I don't think there's any sort of hate towards Brady but a hope that future recruits will be better and pass him on the depth chart as we continue to recruit at a higher level. While we lose MG and Clemmons for next year, I definitely expect Moss to be a key player and am hopeful that Hutton can offer more than Ellingson as he has a higher ceiling.

 

[DanL53]

There is always the argument that a forum is for expressing criticism as well as praise. But I believe what the op intended, and I agree, is in the how the criticism is presented. To me a good rule of thumb is would you say it to a players face? And how would you expect him to react? If you think he'd be ticked off, remember this is a Hawkeye board full of fans and you should expect us to be ticked off a well.

For some, if they speak in real life like they do on here I'm surprised they are still walking around. Kudo's, for being a real life tough guy...oooh, and maybe there is a clue there?

Anyway, it seems like we have a few faulty methods here, like other sports boards:

1) Recruits are best if they turn us down. Or. There must be something wrong with recruits that pick us! Especially if they live close to Iowa City
2) If player don't succeed right away, or redshirt, there must be something wrong with them.
3) As players earn minutes, when they make mistakes the players that don't see the court must be better and no longer have something wrong with them.
4) The first time a player does something remarkably bad they will always have that problem even if they never do it again. (Exaggeration of the exaggeration.)
5) We can finally start to enjoy players as they reach their junior years, unless we've pegged them for permanent punishment, then the junior year is when we use the word bust.
6) As players show success as seniors we remark on how they should have redshirted.
7) That one guy that never did progress much? We never forget his name and bring it up in comparison to recruits.
8) If all else fails, disappear until a losing streak and start over.

 

[GnarlyBoy]

Critiques of players are fair game, but there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of wording things, especially for the younger players.

 

[hawkeyemark]

Ellingson will have a "break-out" yet this year. I realize the kid hasn't shot the ball whole lot and does sometimes get lost of defense. But you have to remember he is a Freshman by playing standards. He sat out all of last year, so this is his first year of game competition.

He has a nice stroke and I think he will find his shot. I just personally like that he accepts his role on the team and when he's in, he isn't chucking up shots or forcing the action. He plays smart and with-in himself. Thats huge, because he can spell Jok and give him a rest.

I look for a game like against a Rugers, Illinois, or someone else to get Ellingson rolling.

I feel certain we'll see guys further down the rotation like Ellingson and Fleming play more as the competition lightens a bit. Baer's very quick development at the wing I think actually helps a guy like Ellingson who Fran doesn't need to force into action. Ellingson seems to have a high basketball IQ and IMO fits nicely into this team as a role player. Our fans just need to let Brady continue to develop and appreciate what he contributes as especially with our two starting guards graduating he will soon become a key piece of the puzzle.

 

[hackeysack]

PJ is still terrible on fast breaks and dribble penetration to the basket.
PJ is still a below average rebounder for his size and position.
----------
Disagree with both.

For the year, Jok is currently 65th just in the B1G in rebounding, with 20 guards above him. Yogi Ferrell averages 1.2 more reb/game than Jok. Even Gesell has better rebounding numbers than Jok.

Jok is a poor ball handler in traffic and has never looked good on a break unless he is camped out behind the arc or is uncontested to the hoop. It is rare (if ever) that you see him shot fake and beat a man on the dribble to the hoop, or really even make a cut to the hoop. Every now and then he'll sneak baseline and show us an underneath move. He's showing some signs of development in other areas (defense, rebounding) but really his only strength is perimeter shooting. I think back to another 6-6 guy Nik Stauskas who was deadly on the perimeter, but could beat you on the dribble to the hoop - the combination made him an NBA first-rounder.

 

[hooper56]

One thing I saw from PJ yesterday was he took a small guard down low. Posted him. And then scored on a nice 6 foot hook shot in the lane. If he develops this part of his game, along with better ball handling, he will be a complete player.

By the way, I swear Pete is taller this year. Anyone else feel this way?

 

[iowaguy88]

Jok has one of the smoothest jumpshots to ever put on an Iowa uniform. His release is so quick too, and at 6'6 he's able to get off his shot even if there's a hand in his face. Who cares if he doesn't rebound at a higher rate? He's bigger, better athlete, and better skill set than Ellingson (not even close) so I'm not why the comparison is being drawn.

 

[JordanChase]

What the hell was up with that BS turnover call early in the game? Had to rewind that like 10 times. It looked like the ref said he stepped out of bounds and then came back in to touch the ball, or that his foot was OOB when he dribbled. He never got within half a foot of the line.

That literally might have been the worst call that I've ever seen.

 

[Mohawkeye]

For the year, Jok is currently 65th just in the B1G in rebounding, with 20 guards above him. Yogi Ferrell averages 1.2 more reb/game than Jok. Even Gesell has better rebounding numbers than Jok.

Jok is a poor ball handler in traffic and has never looked good on a break unless he is camped out behind the arc or is uncontested to the hoop. It is rare (if ever) that you see him shot fake and beat a man on the dribble to the hoop, or really even make a cut to the hoop. Every now and then he'll sneak baseline and show us an underneath move. He's showing some signs of development in other areas (defense, rebounding) but really his only strength is perimeter shooting. I think back to another 6-6 guy Nik Stauskas who was deadly on the perimeter, but could beat you on the dribble to the hoop - the combination made him an NBA first-rounder.

Jok is an above average finisher on the break from what I recall and a very good passer. Just had a nice feed on the break for an assist the other day. His turnover ratio is actually quite low. I agree, he is not good at driving and finishing in the lane, he needs to cut those off and use his superior mid range shot instead.

His rebounding numbers are low because he is a 3 point specialist and relied upon by the team to camp outside. On defense he is at the front of the zone. Seems like whenever we NEED a defensive rebound late in the game, Jok comes up with it. He is doing what he is asked to do. Keep in mind, also, that his minutes tend to be a on the low side for a starter, which skews the rankings.

 

[Tunadog]

He's a freshman. Let's compare freshman year stats:

Brady Ellingson: 17 games, 11.1 min/g, .511 fg%, .303 3pt%, 3.8 pts/g, 15 reb, 9 ast, 9 to
Peter Jok: 27 games, 9.4 min/g, .400 fg%, .348 3pt%, 4.4 pts/g, 25 reb, 19 ast, 13 to

Meanwhile...
PJ is still terrible on fast breaks and dribble penetration to the basket.
PJ is still a below average rebounder for his size and position.
Most here considered PJ a liability on defense until a few games ago.
Many here are now expecting PJ to be a candidate for 1st team all B1G next year.

Shooters often rely on volume of shots, and then you see them break into hot stretches and build confidence. Brady doesn't get the minutes for that yet. Stop saying Brady isn't a D1 basketball player or that he might transfer. He's shown us a few nice things this year and doesn't make any more mistakes than anyone else. He's got a beautiful, quick stroke and could very easily be our "assassin" of the future. Not saying he will one day be 1st team all B1G, but he's not a bum either.

So, you're calling out people for being too critical of one player, while, at the same time, starting a brand new criticism of another? Good job.

 

[hackeysack]

Who cares if he doesn't rebound at a higher rate? He's bigger, better athlete, and better skill set than Ellingson (not even close) so I'm not why the comparison is being drawn.

Actually, this is exactly my point. He might "look" the part, but Jok doesn't have a better skill set, or at least he didn't until recently. He's just now, mid junior year, showing development of additional skills besides shooting. As a freshman and sophomore, his skill set didn't include rebounding, ball handling, passing, defense, or basketball IQ. He didn't use size or athleticism to any advantage in his game, except maybe jumping higher on his jump shot. Jok and Ellingson both have a smooth jump shot with quick release. Ellingson has shown tidbits of nice defense, nice movement and cuts down the lane without the ball, and ability to finish at the rim in a crowd. His AAU teammate Reed Timmer lit us up for 25 pts and 6 rebounds this year; Ellingson could do the same to teams when his time comes, especially because it appears there will be so much "athleticism" playing around him.

 

[MepoDawg#]

People that rip on our players suck. They are kids, giving it their all for Iowa.

I don't rip on him or other players and not going to rip on you other than they are NOT kids. Let's get past this fact.

 

[hackeysack]

So, you're calling out people for being too critical of one player, while, at the same time, starting a brand new criticism of another? Good job.

Saying one player has weaknesses is a whole different story than saying a player has no business playing Division 1 basketball. Jok is a shooter, and an excellent one. So is Brady Ellingson.

 

[hansenhawk]

A little ridiculous to call me out in this way I think. But, we will see if you are right. I am rooting for the kid.

Will gladly eat the crow.

 

[Suterman]

Brady Ellingson will earn his court time. He is clearly farther along than Andrew Fleming is or he wouldn't be playing. We will see Brady blossom against some of the conference lesser lights, maybe even against Rutgers. He just needs more court time and he will be fine.

 

[revkev73]

I don't think players have to worry about having their feelings hurt by reading these narratives that critique their play...they are tough competitors...and, Dan and Bob are always defending them...why worry?

 

[iowaguy88]

Actually, this is exactly my point. He might "look" the part, but Jok doesn't have a better skill set, or at least he didn't until recently. He's just now, mid junior year, showing development of additional skills besides shooting. As a freshman and sophomore, his skill set didn't include rebounding, ball handling, passing, defense, or basketball IQ. He didn't use size or athleticism to any advantage in his game, except maybe jumping higher on his jump shot. Jok and Ellingson both have a smooth jump shot with quick release. Ellingson has shown tidbits of nice defense, nice movement and cuts down the lane without the ball, and ability to finish at the rim in a crowd. His AAU teammate Reed Timmer lit us up for 25 pts and 6 rebounds this year; Ellingson could do the same to teams when his time comes, especially because it appears there will be so much "athleticism" playing around him.

Jok was the same age last year as Ellingson is this year and there's a big difference in terms of talent. Jok has always been able to get open and get his shot off, Ellingson has even shown that capability yet, nevermind I highly doubt he's as good of shooter as Jok is, no way is his release as quick, and he's 2 inches shorter so he's unable to shoot with a hand in his face like Jok.
We often switch to a zone defense during the stretches that Ellingson plays and he doesn't have the foot speed or length that Jok has to defend on the ball.
As for your comparison with Timmer, their skill set is pretty different, and Timmer handles the ball and can run the point. I don't think Ellingson is ever going to light anyone up for 25 pts playing aginst BIG competition.
Let's just be real, Ellingson is never going to be Jok or has the potential to ever come close. I'm sure he's aware of this. In 5 BIG games this year he has 2 points, again, same age as Jok last year... I don't ever want to run kids out of town and thankfully our coach isn't Crean, but the fact is we have a walk on who is more deserving of a scholarship and no immediately availability of getting one. If Brady did transfer it certainly wouldn't have an impact as I don't see any skill or intangible that he brings to the team or in the future.

 

[hackeysack]

A little ridiculous to call me out in this way I think. But, we will see if you are right. I am rooting for the kid.

How is it ridiculous when you make a statement like the below (on the Uhl/Wagner/Baer thread)? Wartburg and Upper Iowa?

"i have always said i just don't think he is D1 material. Honestly, how is he different than some of the kids on Wartburg's or Upper Iowa's roster? What does he bring? If he is just not crazy deadly (which he is FAR from) from 3 point range, then answer is absolutely nothing. I think he gets phased out soon."

 

[WORTHYWISH]

What the hell was up with that BS turnover call early in the game? Had to rewind that like 10 times. It looked like the ref said he stepped out of bounds and then came back in to touch the ball, or that his foot was OOB when he dribbled. He never got within half a foot of the line.

That literally might have been the worst call that I've ever seen.

There were a lot of bad calls/no calls in tgat game going both ways. Pretty typical for college basketball.

 

[hackeysack]

Let's just be real, Ellingson is never going to be Jok or has the potential to ever come close. I'm sure he's aware of this. In 5 BIG games this year he has 2 points, again, same age as Jok last year... I don't ever want to run kids out of town and thankfully our coach isn't Crean, but the fact is we have a walk on who is more deserving of a scholarship and no immediately availability of getting one. If Brady did transfer it certainly wouldn't have an impact as I don't see any skill or intangible that he brings to the team or in the future.

I said from the start that Ellingson wouldn't be Jok. The comparison was made to show that in their first full seasons (regardless of age, which was a stupid argument) the two didn't differ much in their production. I don't expect Ellingson to be all B1G, or to be Peter Jok, but what is ridiculous is to count Ellingson out based on his contributions this year. Read the original post and you'll see that my point is that people, like hansenhawk, should stop saying he isn't capable of playing D1 or that he should transfer. He might never be a 30min/game guy, but he certainly can be asset for this team in the future. The skill he brings to this team is that he is a good shooter, and we've seen this season what good shooters can do for a team.

 

[JordanChase]

Jok has also been playing awesome defense this year.

 

[hawkeyemark]

A little ridiculous to call me out in this way I think. But, we will see if you are right. I am rooting for the kid.

Will gladly eat the crow.

hansen I replied to the thread in support of the player. But I didn't quite get calling you out like that either. No reason for it IMO and nothing comes from ripping other posters even if you don't agree with where they come from.

 

[hackeysack]

Jok has also been playing awesome defense this year.

I agree Jok has been playing good defense this year. And guess what, Brady Ellingson might play some good defense during his junior season.

 

[FranklinHawk]

I more liken Ellingson to Josh Oglesby, very good shooter that plays smart and a solid defender. While JO was inconsistent in the shooting department, he did provide valuable minutes. How successful Ellingson will be remains to be seen, but if Fran wants him on the team so do I.

 

[hackeysack]

hansen I replied to the thread in support of the player. But I didn't quite get calling you out like that either. No reason for it IMO and nothing comes from ripping other posters even if you don't agree with where they come from.

Contending another poster's comments, or calling another poster out by his message board handle, is not ripping another poster. I never said anything inappropriate or personal about hansenhawk. People were complaining of the Ellingson talk on the Uhl/Wagner/Baer thread, so I started a new thread. Go read that other thread if you don't understand why hansenhawk was mentioned.

 

[hansenhawk]

Yeah, was trying to make it a civil conversation, just stating an opinion, sorry. I certainly wasn't bashing the player in any way.

Hackeysack should pretty much be banned, isn't one of the main rules on here you can't call out people just to attack them?

Anyways, I will just put this thread behind me and ask Tom to please delete it. It certainly fits the definition of calling out/attacking another poster.

Hackeysack, your trying to excuse your post above is laughable at best. "I was not ripping on another poster, i was just mentioning what he said and make a new post...." lol

 

[iowaguy88]

I said from the start that Ellingson wouldn't be Jok. The comparison was made to show that in their first full seasons (regardless of age, which was a stupid argument) the two didn't differ much in their production. I don't expect Ellingson to be all B1G, or to be Peter Jok, but what is ridiculous is to count Ellingson out based on his contributions this year. Read the original post and you'll see that my point is that people, like hansenhawk, should stop saying he isn't capable of playing D1 or that he should transfer. He might never be a 30min/game guy, but he certainly can be asset for this team in the future. The skill he brings to this team is that he is a good shooter, and we've seen this season what good shooters can do for a team.

Not sure how that's a stupid argument, as he's essentially a Sophomore...

If Ellingson ever averages 30 min/game for us than I'd expect Iowa to be bottom feeders in the BIG. I don't anticipate him ever averaging more than 10 min/game in conference games if he does stay at Iowa for his career. Yes, we've seen what good shooting does for a team but everyone brings a lot more to the table offensively than just shooting, and that threat allows them to get open looks from 3. Brady is going to spot up, he's not taking guys off the dribble so defenses don't need to respect that. Also, he's shooting 30% from 3 this year and those numbers are continuing to go down. Are we sure he's a really good shooter? We heard what a great shooter JO was for 4 years, and it took some people 4 year to realize that he was not only not a great shooter, but he was in fact a below average shooter.

 

[revkev73]

I don't think anyone is saying Ellingson can't improve...it just seems that others should be taking more of his minutes at this point in time...to make the team better. Two minutes yesterday...the writing on the wall...for now, perhaps.

 

[go-hawks37]

The biggest sign that Fran has turned our program around is that we can now redshirt our freshman players. After Lick we were forced to press freshman into action. The redshirt year allows time for kids to mature and work on skill development. Fran has the program in great shape. Kids like BE don't have to be stars. Just great role players and teammates. I believe BE will have a great career. May never be a starter but that doesn't mean he won't contribute in many games throughout his career.

 

[hansenhawk]

Agree. I hope i eat crow. Like i said, I am rooting for him. Prove this old dog wrong!

Please though, don't call me out personally and say I was ripping on the kid, cause I wasn't.

 

[crHawkeye92]

If Jok wanted to get more rebounds he could, but that isn't what this team needs him to do. He leaks out on the break to get those open transition threes. Gesell has more rebounds simply because he goes for them more often in order to start the break quicker.

 

[hackeysack]

Yeah, was trying to make it a civil conversation, just stating an opinion, sorry. I certainly wasn't bashing the player in any way.

Hackeysack should pretty much be banned, isn't one of the main rules on here you can't call out people just to attack them?

Anyways, I will just put this thread behind me and as Tom to please delete it. It certainly fits the definition of calling out/attacking another poster.

Hackeysack, your trying to excuse your post above is laughable at best. "I was not ripping on another poster, i was just mentioning what he said and make a new post...." lol

Please. It's actually not at all laughable based on your off-topic comments about Ellingson on the other thread. As for being banned, how about Rivals forum rule #7:

"No attacks on players or coaches. Criticism is allowed, and encouraged if the shoe fits. But that does NOT mean you have free range to bash or alienate a player or coach with your comments. If you disagree with how they played or the effort they put forward, please voice your opinion and state why you hold that opinion. If it's something you would not say to their faces, then don't post it."

Are you telling me you would say to Brady Ellingson's face that he is no better than a player from Wartburg or Upper Iowa? Because you said that off-topic on another thread. I started this on-topic thread to disagree with you, and provided statistical evidence to back up my contention. This was not attacking "you" in any way; it was attacking your argument and your statements. Completely different.

 

[revkev73]

Bob...thanks for liking Hackey...I love your predictability...

 

[BBHawk]

He's a freshman. Let's compare freshman year stats:

Brady Ellingson: 17 games, 11.1 min/g, .511 fg%, .303 3pt%, 3.8 pts/g, 15 reb, 9 ast, 9 to
Peter Jok: 27 games, 9.4 min/g, .400 fg%, .348 3pt%, 4.4 pts/g, 25 reb, 19 ast, 13 to

Meanwhile...
PJ is still terrible on fast breaks and dribble penetration to the basket.
PJ is still a below average rebounder for his size and position.
Most here considered PJ a liability on defense until a few games ago.
Many here are now expecting PJ to be a candidate for 1st team all B1G next year.

Shooters often rely on volume of shots, and then you see them break into hot stretches and build confidence. Brady doesn't get the minutes for that yet. Stop saying Brady isn't a D1 basketball player or that he might transfer. He's shown us a few nice things this year and doesn't make any more mistakes than anyone else. He's got a beautiful, quick stroke and could very easily be our "assassin" of the future. Not saying he will one day be 1st team all B1G, but he's not a bum either.

Don't tear down one player to try to build up another, especially when you are just plain wrong about PJ. I have defended both and so far PJ has risen to prove me right. I believe that Ellingson will, too, but within his comfort zone. He is not going to be a skywalker but he has the potential to be a deadly 3-pt shooter and a decent defender. PJ is a good rebounder and can sky but he is still gaining confidence in his knees (not sure if he ever will trust them) so he is cautious. That and, as others have pointed out, he often is running through picks to get open for a 3 so he would not be getting offensive rebounds. He often guards in the perimeter, too, so just how is he supposed to be getting more than the 3+ rebounds he is already averaging? It's not like Iowa has a dearth of rebounders.

 

[hackeysack]

Don't tear down one player to try to build up another, especially when you are just plain wrong about PJ. I have defended both and so far PJ has risen to prove me right. I believe that Ellingson will, too, but within his comfort zone. He is not going to be a skywalker but he has the potential to be a deadly 3-pt shooter and a decent defender. PJ is a good rebounder and can sky but he is still gaining confidence in his knees (not sure if he ever will trust them) so he is cautious. That and, as others have pointed out, he often is running through picks to get open for a 3 so he would not be getting offensive rebounds. He often guards in the perimeter, too, so just how is he supposed to be getting more than the 3+ rebounds he is already averaging? It's not like Iowa has a dearth of rebounders.

Didn't mean it to be a tear down of Jok. Clearly Jok has become a very good player and is only getting better. I gave the example to show that Jok's primary asset and role is perimeter shooter, but for some reason others think Ellingson is garbage because his only role is perimeter shooter. Ellingson hasn't been great at that role this year, but Jok wasn't a whole lot better at it his first year either.