Gable/Sanderson - Recruiting Comparison

[24 so far]

The yikity yak about Gable and Cael makes for some entertaining message board conversations, and I would like to make a couple of points.

While both are legends, as competitors and coaches it is a little silly to argue one is greater than the other due to a greater number of lifetime cumulative achievements when one is retired and the other in the middle of his career. At the conclusion of Cael's coaching run we as fans can look back over two amazing careers and just marvel and wish we might have been as great at something as these two men were at multiple aspects of wrestling.

My second point is that no matter what, when Cael is finished he will have accomplished something even Gable did not accomplish. Gable took over a program that was defending national champions and kept them at the upper most level for a very long time.
Cael came to a program that had not finished first for damn near 50 years and with the previous leadership had become a program that occasionally could finish top5, but generally was somewhere near the top 10 top 15 range. In his second year he took the program to the upper most level of elite and has so far managed to keep the program positioned right there.

One of these two greats took over an elite program and maintained that position. The other built an elite program and then maintained that position.

LOL! You do realize Gable was the head assistant at Iowa when Iowa became an "elite" program right? Coincidence? Nope. (this was prior to the invention of wrestling, so some are unaware)

And if Cael was so great, why couldn't he beat Iowa, while he was in Iowa? And he took over a program that was historically far better than Penn State. And Gable was already done. Weird.

 

[crablegs1]

In 2005 Intermat published a list of the best high school wrestlers in the last 20 years (1985-2005). It had a top 20 along with honorable and special mention lists. The 40 top wrestlers were named and everyone was on the top ten lists that I used for my comparison. Why don't you do some homework before you announce that the top ten lists prior to recent years are bogus. Do a little work. http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/179

So, your response to me saying they didn't have top 10 recruiting rankings way back in the day is to post an all time top 40 list from 2005? How does that prove your point?

What top 10 list from 1980 did you use? You stated in a previous post you used Asics teams. Those weren't top 10 ranked P4P and just seniors, so they weren't recruiting rankings.

 

[butchinmi]

In comparison lets look at the recruiting classes Brands has been able to bring in(I use D1CW because they go back to 2005, but only top 50 from 2005-2009...Use FLO for 17-18):

2005: #2 Metcalf, #19 Borschel, #24 Slaton, #40 LeClere

2006: #18 Blasco, #40 Ballweg, (Montell Marion was in this class as well)

2007: No top 50 recruits

2008: #8 Moore, #14 McDonough, #30 Ballweg, #46 Gambrall

2009: #10 Ramos, #15 St. John, #17 Lofthouse,

2010: #4 Evans, #11 Moore, #12 Dziewa, #19 Telford, #31 Ballweg, #74 Kelly, #79 Baldosaro

2011: #55 Klapprodt, #108 Grothus, #136 Rhoades

2012: #15 Skonieczny, #16 Gilman, #20 Brooks, #23 Clark, #41 Meyer,

2013: #27 Sorensen, #38 Berge, #40 Bradley, #53 Marlin

2014: #14 Stoll, #41 Gross, #63 Paddock, #72 Ryan

2015: #8 Kemerer, #67 Turk, #79 Holloway, #86 Wilcke

2016: #2 Marinelli, #19 Happel, #25 Young, #93 Wagner, #115 Rathbun

2017: #1 Lee, ( #6 Warner, #7 Berge,#50 Falbo) #59 Max Murin, #87 Luke Troy

2018: #2 Teasdale

To say the least I like the current trend.

Was I the only one that about got sick looking at those "misses" or those that didn't pan out? This isn't a knock in any way on Iowa, I'm sure it happens everywhere, but wow. Blasco, Ballweg (3x) Moore (2x), Skon, Berge, Bradley, Marlin, Gross, etc. These upcoming groups need to capture a lot of NC's or Iowa will be the place that Top 10 PFP wrestlers go to finish 6th at best.

We sure seem to do a decent job with the 10-25 type which should bode well for Happel and Young!

 

[YoungGun07]

Was I the only one that about got sick looking at those "misses" or those that didn't pan out? This isn't a knock in any way on Iowa, I'm sure it happens everywhere, but wow. Blasco, Ballweg (3x) Moore (2x), Skon, Berge, Bradley, Marlin, Gross, etc. These upcoming groups need to capture a lot of NC's or Iowa will be the place that Top 10 PFP wrestlers go to finish 6th at best.

We sure seem to do a decent job with the 10-25 type which should bode well for Happel and Young!

We were all thinking it, but it hurt too much to type.

 

[tomsc]

I am a huge Hawkeye fan and Gable fan, but I don't really care if a coach is winning because of teaching or because of recruiting. The job description of a coach includes recruiting, teaching, motivating, managing funds, raising donations, generating fan interest, etc. The ultimate judge is whether they win NCAA titles. I don't understand how someone can be a great recruiter and winning NCAA titles, but a bad coach. Great recruiting is by definition good coaching. So, we can argue all day that Cael sucks because he can't "coach" but I am an Iowa fan calling BS on that one. He is winning titles and Tom Brands is not. I hate to say it, but it is true. That said, PSU fans should not even compare Cael to Gable until Cael wins another dozen or so NCAA titles.

MadTown Hawk--I agree with you. As a PSU fan you can't compare Cael's coaching career with Gable's. Gable is still, and may always be, the benchmark for college wrestling coaching success. If Cael continues at this rate for another decade plus, we can start talking about comparisons. Until then, Gable is the standard! I'm sure Cael would agree. We'll check back in, in another 10-15 years!

 

[nitlion6]

LOL! You do realize Gable was the head assistant at Iowa when Iowa became an "elite" program right? Coincidence? Nope. (this was prior to the invention of wrestling, so some are unaware)

And if Cael was so great, why couldn't he beat Iowa, while he was in Iowa? And he took over a program that was historically far better than Penn State. And Gable was already done. Weird.

I know Gable was a significant part of building the program. However, the fact of the matter is Kurdelmeier was the head coach of the Iowa wrestling program that won Iowa's first 2 NCAA team championships and Gable's first team was the 2-time defending champion.
Cael took over a program that had never won a B1G title and 7 years later the program has 5 NCAA and B1G titles.
So the fact stands, Cael built his elite program and Dan Gable took over a program that was already elite. Newly minted but still already elite.

As far as why could Cael not beat Iowa while he was at Iowa State, if he was (or is) so great. He was not very far behind so it is a pretty big leap of faith to assume he would not have surpassed the Hawkeyes if he had stayed in Ames.

Here is another little tid bit to ponder on. I would never, nor do I believe any Penn State wrestling fan would ever, suggest Dan Gable wasn't (or isn't) great. Competitor, coach or ambassador for the sport Dan Gable is phucking amazing. Shoot, the man's record of accomplishments speaks for itself. To suggest otherwise would suggest I am possibly a wrestling retard.

Cael's record also pretty much speaks for itself. To suggest his record suggests anything other than wrestling greatness - well you know. If the shoe fits.

 

[dicemen99]

In 2005 Intermat published a list of the best high school wrestlers in the last 20 years (1985-2005). It had a top 20 along with honorable and special mention lists. The 40 top wrestlers were named and everyone was on the top ten lists that I used for my comparison. Why don't you do some homework before you announce that the top ten lists prior to recent years are bogus. Do a little work. http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/179

The two eras are incredibly hard to compare. The lack of national competitions in Gable's era made the top 40 wrestler lists and HMs rely mainly on in-state accomplishments and Junior Nationals.

Don't take this post as a slap against Gable. His is the greatest wrestling coach of all-time. Cael is great also, and people who chalk up his accomplishments as a coach to his ability to recruit only are disingenuos. But he has some ways to go to catch Gable. It's best revisited in 10 years or so.

 

[wasdt21]

and that is the question dice, coaches suffer burn out. look at urban meyer when at florida. to stay on top those guys stress and work long hours. now I do think cael's makeup will help him, he seems relaxed.we will see.

 

[Jackhawk87]

I know both Gable and Sanderson to be winners. They both found ways to win within the construct of their time. I would imagine if they were place-traded in time they would adapt to the model that is more successful in the respective era.



While I would agree with most of your post, including the part about both being winners, but I am not quite so sure about this part.

Gable did extremely well with his type of recruit and was able to motivate them and bring them to wrestle to the best of their potential. Could he get the top PFP wrestlers to join him these days? Don't know. Gable is old school and may have trouble getting the current crop of top wrestlers as I do not believe he is probably big on social media or the current pandering and groveling that may be needed to get the kids to come to his program.

Cael is great at getting the current crop of top recruits (somehow without officially giving them much scholly money). When he was at Iowa State, he had very good wrestlers, and for the most part, was not able to get them to the next level. Could have he adapted in the 1990s, when development was king? Don't know. Didn't prove that he could at Ia St.

 

[pablow]

The two eras are incredibly hard to compare. The lack of national competitions in Gable's era made the top 40 wrestler lists and HMs rely mainly on in-state accomplishments and Junior Nationals.

Don't take this post as a slap against Gable. His is the greatest wrestling coach of all-time. Cael is great also, and people who chalk up his accomplishments as a coach to his ability to recruit only are disingenuos. But he has some ways to go to catch Gable. It's best revisited in 10 years or so.

I agree.

The only reason I did the comparison was because I 've been reading a lot of posts lately that claimed Gable was the Sanderson of his day in terms of recruiting. That's it.

I don't think any knowledgeable wrestling fan thinks Cael, Cody, and company can't coach - that's silly. On the other hand, the reality is that Cael will get more credit for coaching Matt Brown to a title than he will for coaching Mark Hall to the same result. That's because most wrestling fans think Hall could win championships with Lady Gaga as his coach.

So Cael's got himself in a trap. Sort of like the country song How can I Miss You if You Won't Go Away. Doing more with less reguires "less." Cael's never met "less."

But, hey - there are worse problems to have.

 

[rossel 33]

The yikity yak about Gable and Cael makes for some entertaining message board conversations, and I would like to make a couple of points.

My second point is that no matter what, when Cael is finished he will have accomplished something even Gable did not accomplish. Gable took over a program that was defending national champions and kept them at the upper most level for a very long time.
Cael came to a program that had not finished first for damn near 50 years and with the previous leadership had become a program that occasionally could finish top5, but generally was somewhere near the top 10 top 15 range. In his second year he took the program to the upper most level of elite and has so far managed to keep the program positioned right there.

One of these two greats took over an elite program and maintained that position. The other built an elite program and then maintained that position.

-----------

Gotta throw a flag on that second point, nitlion.

You've kind of taken a cookie cutter approach to spin history a bit.

You seem oblivious to the fact that Iowa's first national championship happened only after Gable was hired as ass't coach. His impact was tremendous, immediate, and the culture quickly changed. Anyone who followed wrestling back then recognized that. Kurdelmeier saw it, and knew Gable was the future of that program, and soon stepped down, to allow Gable to take over. Prior to Gable's arrival, Iowa was the perennial doormat to ISU, with zero national titles.

Also, you soft pedal Cael arriving at PSU, bringing with him David Taylor, Matt Brown, Cyler, and later, Andrew Long, to join Ruth, Quentin Wright, and (?) Molinaro....it's rather disengenous to imply that Cael was starting with a bunch of nobodies. It's ironic, because when Brands came to Iowa from VT, the anti-Iowa crowd cried, "foul...combined teams...not valid, etc."

I again want to emphasize, I'm not saying Cael doesn't develop talent, or can't coach. Just saying it's hard to tell how much, given his starting material. When you get a guy like Mark Hall, a World gold medalist, it's not like you're starting from scratch... he IS a star. Same thing with Pico. Had he decided to enroll at PSU, Iowa, tOSU or wherever, he would've been a star, likely a multi-time national champ. Recruiting a top tier wrestler is a big part of success nowadays, and I'll give Cael plenty of credit there.

 

[dicemen99]

I agree.

The only reason I did the comparison was because I 've been reading a lot of posts lately that claimed Gable was the Sanderson of his day in terms of recruiting. That's it.

I don't think any knowledgeable wrestling fan thinks Cael, Cody, and company can't coach - that's silly. On the other hand, the reality is that Cael will get more credit for coaching Matt Brown to a title than he will for coaching Mark Hall to the same result. That's because most wrestling fans think Hall could win championships with Lady Gaga as his coach.

So Cael's got himself in a trap. Sort of like the country song How can I Miss You if You Won't Go Away. Doing more with less reguires "less." Cael's never met "less."

But, hey - there are worse problems to have.

Another point to consider in this discussion is the difference in the athletes entering college in the eras. Gable coached in an era when the majority of HS wrestlers were far less technical AND also lagged far behind in terms of physical conditioning (endurance training, weight training, nutrition, etc.) when compared to the top HS athletes today. He recognized the landscape he was in and truly revolutionized college wrestling with what he did. He had to recruit athletes that could thrive in his training environment and he did. That might not necessarily mean a kid who was named AA by WIN magazine or the like - although it certainly didn't hurt if the kid was and was also a good fit for him, lol. He also created an environment where "like-minded" individuals wanted to come. Not that he got all of them, but I would bet he got a far better percentage of the guys he wanted (emphasis on wanted) than his contemporaries. Note - this is not to say that great wrestlers of the 70s and 80s could not also be great wrestlers today.

Today's environment is much different as many of the very best recruits come in light years ahead technically of their predecessors. Also, mainly through the influence of Gable and the drive of coaches to keep up, teams among the top in college wrestling are not going to be able to separate themselves from others across the board on physical conditioning (cue the OSU jokes here).

Cael operates under this new environment and in this decade has found a way to separate his teams from the others - as Gable (and others) did before him. He also needs to recruit the athletes that will thrive in his environment. I think people who think he just goes down FLO's top 10 list and starts making calls are waaaay off. He also has created an environment where "like-minded" individuals want to come to. How long he will be able to continue to do that will be the test for him and will ultimately decide how he stacks up against Gable when he calls it quits. The longevity of Gable's success is a daunting mountain to scale.

 

[pumpdog20]

Gable's not walking through the door (not to coach anyways)...

Time for Brands to figure whatever it is to figure out to bring back championships.

 

[24 so far]

I know Gable was a significant part of building the program. However, the fact of the matter is Kurdelmeier was the head coach of the Iowa wrestling program that won Iowa's first 2 NCAA team championships and Gable's first team was the 2-time defending champion.
Cael took over a program that had never won a B1G title and 7 years later the program has 5 NCAA and B1G titles.
So the fact stands, Cael built his elite program and Dan Gable took over a program that was already elite. Newly minted but still already elite.

As far as why could Cael not beat Iowa while he was at Iowa State, if he was (or is) so great. He was not very far behind so it is a pretty big leap of faith to assume he would not have surpassed the Hawkeyes if he had stayed in Ames.

Here is another little tid bit to ponder on. I would never, nor do I believe any Penn State wrestling fan would ever, suggest Dan Gable wasn't (or isn't) great. Competitor, coach or ambassador for the sport Dan Gable is phucking amazing. Shoot, the man's record of accomplishments speaks for itself. To suggest otherwise would suggest I am possibly a wrestling retard.

Cael's record also pretty much speaks for itself. To suggest his record suggests anything other than wrestling greatness - well you know. If the shoe fits.

LOL! It's also a big leap of faith to assume Cael was ever going to beat Iowa while at Iowa State. The fact of the matter is he never did, so what exactly was happening that was going to change that? He was already getting top National recruits, and plenty of them. So it's you who is taking "that leap of faith", I have results as a factual basis for my contention. You have the "I love Cael so I know it's true" theory.

Gary Kurdelmeier certainly deserves a ton of credit for the job he did (and he was a fine wrestler himself), but probably the best thing he ever did was find a way to get Dan Gable to Iowa (Harold Nichols wasn't going anywhere at Iowa State - but they did eventually have a Bobby Douglas, clearly he was no Harold Nichols..................).

A bit later in Hamilton's profile of Kurdelmeier, Gable tells of being called into his boss' office one month into his first season as an Iowa assistant. "I can see right now that you can do a better job training the athletes than me," Kurdelmeier told Gable. "I'm going to turn the wrestling room, practices, training, all that stuff over to you."


Never said Cael hasn't accomplished great things, he has. It's also a FACT that he couldn't beat Iowa while in the same state, being the "legend" he is and all. He wasn't going to anytime soon either, which clearly dawned on him, so he left his Alma-Mater in a shitstorm and hit the road. Lucky for you as it turns out I'd say (not so much for the school that gave him everything his heart desired while he was there).

 

[LaxHawk174]

Gable's not walking through the door (not to coach anyways)...

Time for Brands to figure whatever it is to figure out to bring back championships.

Getting guys like Spencer Lee seems like a good place to start.

 

[Sandor45]

Gable's not walking through the door (not to coach anyways)...

Time for Brands to figure whatever it is to figure out to bring back championships.

We need to bring IT home THIS year.
Don't care if we go .500 in duels this season just as long as we win it all in St. Louis

 

[moug]

The yikity yak about Gable and Cael makes for some entertaining message board conversations, and I would like to make a couple of points.

While both are legends, as competitors and coaches it is a little silly to argue one is greater than the other due to a greater number of lifetime cumulative achievements when one is retired and the other in the middle of his career. At the conclusion of Cael's coaching run we as fans can look back over two amazing careers and just marvel and wish we might have been as great at something as these two men were at multiple aspects of wrestling.

My second point is that no matter what, when Cael is finished he will have accomplished something even Gable did not accomplish. Gable took over a program that was defending national champions and kept them at the upper most level for a very long time.
Cael came to a program that had not finished first for damn near 50 years and with the previous leadership had become a program that occasionally could finish top5, but generally was somewhere near the top 10 top 15 range. In his second year he took the program to the upper most level of elite and has so far managed to keep the program positioned right there.

One of these two greats took over an elite program and maintained that position. The other built an elite program and then maintained that position.

Kuedelmeier and Gable were both in their 3rd year the first time Iowa won the NC. To say he didn't have anything to do with building the elite program and simply took over an elite program is not telling the whole story.

Edit: I promise to read page 2 before replying next time to avoid redundancy

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

Kuedelmeier and Gable were both in their 3rd year the first time Iowa won the NC. To say he didn't have anything to do with building the elite program and simply took over an elite program is not telling the whole story.

Edit: I promise to read page 2 before replying next time to avoid redundancy

He played a MAJOR part in building Iowa into an elite program no one should say otherwise

 

[nitlion6]

LOL! It's also a big leap of faith to assume Cael was ever going to beat Iowa while at Iowa State. The fact of the matter is he never did, so what exactly was happening that was going to change that? He was already getting top National recruits, and plenty of them. So it's you who is taking "that leap of faith", I have results as a factual basis for my contention. You have the "I love Cael so I know it's true" theory.

Gary Kurdelmeier certainly deserves a ton of credit for the job he did (and he was a fine wrestler himself), but probably the best thing he ever did was find a way to get Dan Gable to Iowa (Harold Nichols wasn't going anywhere at Iowa State - but they did eventually have a Bobby Douglas, clearly he was no Harold Nichols..................).

A bit later in Hamilton's profile of Kurdelmeier, Gable tells of being called into his boss' office one month into his first season as an Iowa assistant. "I can see right now that you can do a better job training the athletes than me," Kurdelmeier told Gable. "I'm going to turn the wrestling room, practices, training, all that stuff over to you."


Never said Cael hasn't accomplished great things, he has. It's also a FACT that he couldn't beat Iowa while in the same state, being the "legend" he is and all. He wasn't going to anytime soon either, which clearly dawned on him, so he left his Alma-Mater in a shitstorm and hit the road. Lucky for you as it turns out I'd say (not so much for the school that gave him everything his heart desired while he was there).

Of course the best thing Kurdelmeier did for Iowa wrestling was get Gable to come to Iowa City. Still, those first two were Gary's with Dan as an important ingredient/contributor of/to the success.

The attempt at logic on here if you stop long enough to look at it is rather humorous.
1. Fact - Dan Gable's first team was a 2 time defending national champion.
2. Fact - Cael Sanderson's first PSU team finished 17th with 0 B1G champs and 2 AAs the year before Cael came to town.
3. Fact - in the 11 years prior to Cael (Sunderland's tenure) Penn State had 7 B1G champs, 27 AAs, 3 NCAA Champions, 2 top 5 team finishes, 3 team finishes out of top 20, 7 out of top 10.

Yet, according to you guys Dan started with a Big-10 doormat program and Cael fell into a situation that already was established with all the necessary pieces in place.

As far as whether it is a stretch to imagine Cael building a program at ISU that would regularly beat Iowa. 2, 3 and 5 place finishes shows he wasn't that far behind 2 of Iowa's best recent teams. It only took him 2 years at Penn State to pass Iowa and stay in front. Not that hard to imagine he would have continued to improve as a recruiter and coach while at Ames and the Cyclones would have made a quality move similar to Penn State's improvement.

Now, considering Gable's ability to recruit. Kids from all over the country would travel to Iowa's wrestling camps. Gable obviously had a keen eye for recognizing talent, mental strength and determination. Dan was not recruiting kids on hearsay or blind faith. He almost always knew what he was getting.
There isn't a big difference between the Gable model or the Sanderson model.

Both seem to have an incredibly keen eye for accurately accessing the talent they want.
Both get kids who buy into what they are selling.
Both wrestling legends.
Both have total administration support.
Both have fan bases that are atypically large and provide a fun environment to compete in.
I could continue with this list for a long time, but my point I believe has been made.

 

[Jhrosewrestling]

Gable did extremely well with his type of recruit and was able to motivate them and bring them to wrestle to the best of their potential. Could he get the top PFP wrestlers to join him these days? Don't know. Gable is old school and may have trouble getting the current crop of top wrestlers as I do not believe he is probably big on social media or the current pandering and groveling that may be needed to get the kids to come to his program.

Cael is great at getting the current crop of top recruits (somehow without officially giving them much scholly money). When he was at Iowa State, he had very good wrestlers, and for the most part, was not able to get them to the next level. Could have he adapted in the 1990s, when development was king? Don't know. Didn't prove that he could at Ia St.

Fair. But that is just the hypothetical leap I made to assume in good faith that both coaches would adapt to the era for success. Allow me to make the opposite leap in our fun time-travel alternate universe:

If Gable was a young head coach in 2016 and neglected an emphasis on national recruitment of demonstrated talent in favor of soup-to-nuts development, he would not experience the epic run of success he had in the 80s and 90s.

Meanwhile if Sanderson hops in the way-back machine and focuses on recruiting kids who just have a top-ranking by an unreliable publication and didn't hone in on the best fits for his system and development within said system, no titles for our hypothetical, early 90s, Sanderson-run PSU program.

Again, generalizations. I know Gable recruited hard and I know Sanderson spends time on development. None of this changes the fact that, in spite of our cross-generational wrestling fantasy camp exercise, the path to success has evolved (the reasons for such evolution are another, equally interesting, discussion). Along with that, we should consider holding off on the 1:1 comparisons and recognize that the game has changed.

None of this is to say that the OP's comparison chart was of no value. I simply propose that it demonstrates more about the shifting landscape and less about the respective abilities of the central figures in the discussion.

 

[rossel 33]

The attempt at logic on here if you stop long enough to look at it is rather humorous.
1. Fact - Dan Gable's first team was a 2 time defending national champion.
2. Fact - Cael Sanderson's first PSU team finished 17th with 0 B1G champs and 2 AAs the year before Cael came to town.
3. Fact - in the 11 years prior to Cael (Sunderland's tenure) Penn State had 7 B1G champs, 27 AAs, 3 NCAA Champions, 2 top 5 team finishes, 3 team finishes out of top 20, 7 out of top 10.

Yet, according to you guys Dan started with a Big-10 doormat program and Cael fell into a situation that already was established with all the necessary pieces in place.

Starting to beat a dead horse here, but you are using very selective criteria to make your case, and not looking any deeper.

Prior to 1972 Iowa had never won an NCAA team title. They weren't considered a powerhouse team, and always playing 2nd fiddle to ISU. The Iowa head coach from 1953-1972 was Dave McCuskey. His teams never won a team title. In the decade leading up to Kurdelmeier/Gable, Iowa's team typically was not in top 10, and had a highest finish at 5th place one year.

In 1972 Kurdelmeier was named head coach, and he quickly hired Gable as assistant, also in 1972. They started at the SAME TIME.

That was the start of Iowa's rise to dominance. Though not head coach immediately, Gable was there at the beginning of the change, and was a huge factor in the transformation.... many would say the the biggest factor.
Kurdelmeier's short 4 year stint as HC saw Gable as his assistant, right from the start.

They won the ncaa team title in 1975. Your emphasis on Kurdelmeier as H.C. allows you to imply that in 1976, Gable simply inherited a team that was already a national champion, and understate his role in Iowa's turnaround.

 

[nitlion6]

Starting to beat a dead horse here, but you are using very selective criteria to make your case, and not looking any deeper.

Prior to 1972 Iowa had never won an NCAA team title. They weren't considered a powerhouse team, and always playing 2nd fiddle to ISU. The Iowa head coach from 1953-1972 was Dave McCuskey. His teams never won a team title. In the decade leading up to Kurdelmeier/Gable, Iowa's team typically was not in top 10, and had a highest finish at 5th place one year.

In 1972 Kurdelmeier was named head coach, and he quickly hired Gable as assistant, also in 1972. They started at the SAME TIME.

That was the start of Iowa's rise to dominance. Though not head coach immediately, Gable was there at the beginning of the change, and was a huge factor in the transformation.... many would say the the biggest factor.
Kurdelmeier's short 4 year stint as HC saw Gable as his assistant, right from the start.

They won the ncaa team title in 1975. Your emphasis on Kurdelmeier as H.C. allows you to imply that in 1976, Gable simply inherited a team that was already a national champion, and understate his role in Iowa's turnaround.

So you saying my point about Gable's starting point may have been chosen to help frame a point in better light than it actually deserves, and maybe I am being somewhat disingenuous?
You mean to tell me that Gable did not just walk into a situation ripe for the picking of championships? That he worked to develop Iowa into what it became?

Just wondering. How does that effect the Iowa discription of Cael's success at Penn State?

 

[wasdt21]

got no problem saying cael has done a heck of a job, you on the other hand are starting to bore the hell out of me.

 

[nitlion6]

got no problem saying cael has done a heck of a job, you on the other hand are starting to bore the hell out of me.

Sorry about boring you. What can I do better?

 

[Sullivan]

LOL! You do realize Gable was the head assistant at Iowa when Iowa became an "elite" program right? Coincidence? Nope. (this was prior to the invention of wrestling, so some are unaware)

And if Cael was so great, why couldn't he beat Iowa, while he was in Iowa? And he took over a program that was historically far better than Penn State. And Gable was already done. Weird.

Cael is very good, and Gable was great in his day....

But, I'm not convinced Gable would have the same success today, unless he changed his recruiting and coaching style.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

So in a nutshell?

 

[Herkuleez5]

So in a nutshell?

Exactly. Iowa fans like Gable better and think he is the better coach. PSU fans think Carl is the best thing ever. Wow who would of thunk it?

 

[255]

Gable changed the sport.
Brought conditioning and power with score holds more into play. He was and is a master motivater. No gable, coach K has no titles. Gable not only
Won but innovated the sport. He made all teams train year round. He is much smarter than he is given credit for. He would have been just as successful starting in this area. To say otherwise is to say he got lucky.

Cael has the name right now. He is good with recruits and knows how to sell his program. No doubt he can coach and no doubt he can manage a team. His ability to develop the lesser athlete into a champion has yet to be seen.

That's the true separation between them. Gable's legend was taking the guy with less talent or ability, and putting them on the stand. He was creative in practice and in how he can coached people.

Cael has a great team is in the elite club of coaches. However, he can win 10 more titles and still not match what gable did in and for the sport. Gable never lost a big 10. 9 in a row NCAA titles and a couple more strings on top of that. At 1 school.

When Cael is there 26 years, we can compare. At this point people are just arguing their favorite flavor. Gable set the bar. No one has come close nor on track to do it. We will see.
Gable's first 9 years: 9 Big 10 titles, 9 NCAA titles only 5 dual losses and a tie. Worst career finish at NCAA was 6th.
Cael in 9 years is still impressive: 8 Conference titles (3 big 12 and 5 big 10) 5 NCAA titles. Don't know his dual record but I know he placed 17th at NCAA.

 

[24 so far]

Of course the best thing Kurdelmeier did for Iowa wrestling was get Gable to come to Iowa City. Still, those first two were Gary's with Dan as an important ingredient/contributor of/to the success.

The attempt at logic on here if you stop long enough to look at it is rather humorous.
1. Fact - Dan Gable's first team was a 2 time defending national champion.
2. Fact - Cael Sanderson's first PSU team finished 17th with 0 B1G champs and 2 AAs the year before Cael came to town.
3. Fact - in the 11 years prior to Cael (Sunderland's tenure) Penn State had 7 B1G champs, 27 AAs, 3 NCAA Champions, 2 top 5 team finishes, 3 team finishes out of top 20, 7 out of top 10.

Yet, according to you guys Dan started with a Big-10 doormat program and Cael fell into a situation that already was established with all the necessary pieces in place.

As far as whether it is a stretch to imagine Cael building a program at ISU that would regularly beat Iowa. 2, 3 and 5 place finishes shows he wasn't that far behind 2 of Iowa's best recent teams. It only took him 2 years at Penn State to pass Iowa and stay in front. Not that hard to imagine he would have continued to improve as a recruiter and coach while at Ames and the Cyclones would have made a quality move similar to Penn State's improvement.

Now, considering Gable's ability to recruit. Kids from all over the country would travel to Iowa's wrestling camps. Gable obviously had a keen eye for recognizing talent, mental strength and determination. Dan was not recruiting kids on hearsay or blind faith. He almost always knew what he was getting.
There isn't a big difference between the Gable model or the Sanderson model.

Both seem to have an incredibly keen eye for accurately accessing the talent they want.
Both get kids who buy into what they are selling.
Both wrestling legends.
Both have total administration support.
Both have fan bases that are atypically large and provide a fun environment to compete in.
I could continue with this list for a long time, but my point I believe has been made.

You go right ahead and live in your own little fantasy world Jack.

 

[255]

Dr Nickles won 6 titles, 11 runner up and 9 3rd place finishes.

 

[Clarion167]

In 2005 Intermat published a list of the best high school wrestlers in the last 20 years (1985-2005). It had a top 20 along with honorable and special mention lists. The 40 top wrestlers were named and everyone was on the top ten lists that I used for my comparison. Why don't you do some homework before you announce that the top ten lists prior to recent years are bogus. Do a little work. http://intermatwrestle.com/articles/179

Wow, top 40 out of 200. Not sure you proved anything.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Wow, top 40 out of 200. Not sure you proved anything.

Not sure this post improved the knowledge of the reader like his did. Even if erroneous, which I'm not saying it is or isn't, I give credit to him for having taken his personal time to research and post it.

 

[horraybeer]

Not sure this post improved the knowledge of the reader like his did. Even if erroneous, which I'm not saying it is or isn't, I give credit to him for having taken his personal time to research and post it.

Pablow didn't take enough time researching or would have had the Chiapparelli's and Pete Bush as top recruits. Mike Zadick was a top recruit in 97.

If you take the # of HS AA, Iowa got a ton of high end talent coming in year after year. Guys like TJ Williams, Eric Juergens, Bill Zadick, Matt Hoover, Cory Christensen, Adam Greiner, Matt Hatcher.. ect. ect. ect.

 

[HoundedHawk]

A bit later in Hamilton's profile of Kurdelmeier, Gable tells of being called into his boss' office one month into his first season as an Iowa assistant. "I can see right now that you can do a better job training the athletes than me," Kurdelmeier told Gable. "I'm going to turn the wrestling room, practices, training, all that stuff over to you."

nitlion6's point was just completely obliterated, and then he obliterated his own posting credibility by doubling down.

Gable didn't inherit anything he didn't help create. It's like downplaying the ability of father's son by saying that son was merely handed a successful business, when the father already fully admitted the son was mostly responsible for its success.

 

[pablow]

Pablow didn't take enough time researching or would have had the Chiapparelli's and Pete Bush as top recruits. Mike Zadick was a top recruit in 97.

If you take the # of HS AA, Iowa got a ton of high end talent coming in year after year. Guys like TJ Williams, Eric Juergens, Bill Zadick, Matt Hoover, Cory Christensen, Adam Greiner, Matt Hatcher.. ect. ect. ect.

Mike Zadick and T.J. Williams never wrestled for Gable.

Juergens was not top ten - he was solidly behind Jeremy Hunter [Hunter beat Juergens handlely in an all-star match] and Abas.

Bill Zadick, Cory Christensen, Matt Hatcher, and Adam Greiner were only honorable mention their senior years on Asics All-American team [Asics had 1st team, 2d team, 3rd team and honorable mention].

Louis Chiapparelli and Bush could have been included.

I'm sure if you put some more time and effort into it you could have come up with a more helpful post.

 

[Hicksy87]

Cael is very good, and Gable was great in his day....

But, I'm not convinced Gable would have the same success today, unless he changed his recruiting and coaching style.

I believe that Gable would still have great success today (although maybe not as dominant as his teams were) winning team and individual titles. Gable was (and is) a master motivator (psychologically) arguably one of the best in all sports. Gable was able to figure out what it took to motivate each individual athlete. After Gable went a couple years without titles he made changes in his recruiting to put the program back on top.

 

[horraybeer]

Mike Zadick and T.J. Williams never wrestled for Gable.

Juergens was not top ten - he was solidly behind Jeremy Hunter [Hunter beat Juergens handlely in an all-star match] and Abas.

Bill Zadick, Cory Christensen, Matt Hatcher, and Adam Greiner were only honorable mention their senior years on Asics All-American team [Asics had 1st team, 2d team, 3rd team and honorable mention].

Louis Chiapparelli and Bush could have been included.

I'm sure if you put some more time and effort into it you could have come up with a more helpful post.

http://www.wrestlingusa.com/high-school/ewExternalFiles/1993 High School All-Americans1.pdf

I'm not going to go through every year.

 

[zwicker]

MadTown Hawk--I agree with you. As a PSU fan you can't compare Cael's coaching career with Gable's. Gable is still, and may always be, the benchmark for college wrestling coaching success. If Cael continues at this rate for another decade plus, we can start talking about comparisons. Until then, Gable is the standard! I'm sure Cael would agree. We'll check back in, in another 10-15 years!

Can we compare Cael to Brands?

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

Can we compare Cael to Brands?

Brands 3 championships to Cael's 5?

 

[rossel 33]

Can we compare Cael to Brands?

When on equal footing, Brands comes out on top (think ISU v Iowa).

When Cael has a who's who of top ten p4p recruits coming in at every weight, he comes out slightly ahead.