Honest expectations

[WrestlerHawk]

Come on, REALLY!?!?!? I could get a trained monkey to coach that team with the talent they bought in!!!

REALLY!??!!? Gable got many great recruits, but no where like the advantage that Karl has. Also much greater competition do to the amount of teams, and D2, D3 etc... being able to win D1. NOT the same!!!!

NOT!!! Just look at the numbers. As many failures as successful wrestlers. Just a numbers game.

YEP!

We beat them with less then 1/10 the fire power in recruiting #s!!! KemDawg, and LEE I believe were our only 2 top 10. They had 17!!!! Why do people not understand this!?!?!?

WHAT is so hard. IF we had SEVENTEEN Kems& Lee's We would be not only beating them like a red headed step child, but it would never even be close!!!


YES!!!!

YES!!!!

If you want to give the great kale credit for something? I will gladly say he managed to skate the rules, play in the gray area, buy who he needed, laugh at 9.9 etc..... He did all this. He made an un-level playing field that continues to this day.

STOP with the other nonsense for the love of GOD!!!!! "ewww crail is just soOOOO wonderful!!!" Just look at how he develops ALL these #1 ranked kids!!!!" WOW!!!!

Just at 125 alone, he has brought in I believe EIGHT TOP 10 kids in the last 7 years! JACK SH*T to show for it!!!!

WHAT happened!?!?!? Most have even left F*** land. One left and became a 2X national champion!

TWO top 10 guys at 197 and Heavy brought in. Go right ahead and show me just ONE team in history that EVER had this????? You can't, you know why??? Because it never happened, and you want to know why? $$$$$, two of the hardest weights to fill. Getting just 1 top guy is hard enough.

Here's the data that should shut you up regarding the "Carl can't develop" mantra, but it won't. You know what this data says? Just using 2009-2016 (since they've all graduated), it says that 75% of top ten recruits DON'T ever win a NCAA. If placing a monkey in the corner of a top ten guy wins championships, then there should be a whole lot more championships out of these guys.

Hoping that PSU loses Cunningham, or accusing them of cheating, or trying to tear down what they've accomplished is no way to improve the Hawks.

2009 - 5 of 10 (Dake/Taylor/Ruth/Perry/Ramos) - 12 total titles
2010 - 1 of 10 (Stieber) - 4 total titles
2011 - 1 of 10 (Megaludis) - 1 total title
2012 - 1 of 10 (Tsirtsis) - 1 total title
2013 - 4 of 10 (IMar/Cox/Retherford/Ashnault) - 9 total titles
2014 - 3 of 10 (Nolf/Nickal/Snyder) - 9 total titles
2015 - 3 of 10 (Joseph/Valencia/Martin) - 6 total titles
2016 - 2 of 10 (Hall/Suriano) - 3 total titles
2017 - 3 of 10 (Lee/Lee/Yianni) - 8 total titles so far
2018 - 3 of 10 (Steveson/Brooks/Carr) - 5 total titles so far
2019 - 1 of 10 (Starrocci) - 2 total titles so far
2020 - 2 of 10 (O'Toole/Ferrari) - 2 total titles so far
2021/2022 - 0 of 10 so far

 

[mcpat]

PSU’s abundance of top 10 P4P recruits gives them better odds of some developing into D1 studs. How many top 10 P4P guys go to PSU and don’t develop into D1 studs?

Willie did an article on this last year. It looked at top ten recruits since 2015. It showed that PSU was ridiculously ahead of everyone else in % that won a national title.

 

[WrestlerHawk]

Missed my point. How many of these p4p recruits going to PSU don’t materialize? And no I don’t want you to answer that I’ll do the leg work.

75% of ALL top ten recruits don't materialize, no matter where they go. The fact that F** State is batting at least 40% doesn't help your case.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

I remember crunching the numbers for one of these discussions a few years ago. At that time 50% of the top ten overall recruits over several years didn't even AA once. Really an incredible number, not sure if that still holds true but wouldn't surprise me if it's still close. Top 3, numbers were better, much more likely to AA and make at least one finals during their career.

 

[WrestlerHawk]

I remember crunching the numbers for one of these discussions a few years ago. At that time 50% of the top ten overall recruits over several years didn't even AA once. Really an incredible number, not sure if that still holds true over the past few years but wouldn't surprise me if it's still close. Top 3, numbers are better, much more likely to AA and make at least one finals during their career.

So, 75% don't natty, 50% don't AA. Maybe the rankings aren't very good.

 

[okinburg1]

It is basically a race for second every year.

Between Penn State winning every year based on recruiting and everyone ducking big matchups during the season, I am going to stop going to Nationals for the 1st time since my father took me as an 8 year old in 1979.

Wrestling is it’s own worst enemy.

You know this is basically how the rest of the country has felt wrt Oklahoma State and Iowa until 2011, right? The only difference is that your team isn't on top of the mountain NOW. I do feel bad you feel the way you do - Nationals every year since 1979 is very impressive. Seeing Iowa crowned national champions 21 times (out of 43 years) almost qualifies as a situation where "it is basically a race for second every year," does it not???

 

[Flying_Tiger]

So, 75% don't natty, 50% don't AA. Maybe the rankings aren't very good.

The numbers go down from there so there is some validly to the rankings, but they are far from exact. There are always going to be guys that emerge that were under the radar in high school. In the end, it seems only the top 2-3 are high percentage hits and even they can still bust.

 

[Vic Vaselino]

Is your whole state filled with clowns, or is it just you wanna be pussy cat bandwagon jerks?

Did you ever see the movie MONEY BALL? It is about how this man developed a system if you will of evaluating talent. He made a program on how you win baseball games. It was/is revolutionary. By doing this, The A's Baseball team with a small % of say the Yankees payroll, could compete!!!

Your great Crailure did NOTHING like this. What they did was exactly what I said they did. He was brought in by some wealthy smuck in my opinion. Landing in a place where they knew they would look the other way. It worked you numb nuts!!!

"they do their job better" Do not be such a horse ass all your life!!! It is very well known that it was the money and is the money! Then to make yourself look even dumber, you bring up the club!?!?!? REALLY??? I mean how do you think they brought in Dake, Snyder, Gilman!?!?!?

YEA it was $$$$$$ TOO! Funny though how they have to bring in all these guys when the great PHRAILURE is "developing all this talent"

Just go back to what I had wrote, READ it, and if you want to take over for the other dork? Go right ahead and answer my questions. Then get back to me once we have all those numbers. Once again, lets see who is right by using MATH and FACTS!!!!

Nice hissy fit.

 

[MSU158]

Great post. MSU is THE biggest cherry picker and will talk in circles to create a narrative where he can claim to be right. He claims you’re not a real Iowa fan. Meanwhile he claims his team is MSU. I stopped with this clown yrs ago when he challenged me to a pickem contest on NCAA results and I buried him. His predictions are always wrong too. I remember him screaming from the rooftops that Marinelli would have a better career than Cenzo. LOL @MSU158

Buried me? You won by 1.5 points tough guy. And that was because I flat whiffed at 133. If you want to call me a clown, don’t be disingenuous. Calling my predictions always wrong is laughable. I missed ONE championship team since 2008 and that was OkState when they took SECOND to PSU. Hell, I even admitted then that I picked them simply because I wanted them to win so badly to shut you morons up.

Talk about lack of credibility. I gave you credit for that win, but acting like winning by 1 single match in the entire ncaa tournament is burying me is beyond comical and throws your entire argument flat on your face…

Finally, let’s not act like you are a wrestling genius when you happen to be a fan of one of the most dominant teams in history and mainly pick those guys to win. Newsflash, that is what is supposed to happen.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

@pish69 Are you the real TBar?

I'll be more than happy to win by 1.5 points.

 

[MSU158]

@pish69 Are you the real TBar?

I'll be more than happy to win by 1.5 points.

Nope, they are not remotely the same person.

Edited to add: Being happy to win by 1.5 is absolutely fine. Saying you "buried" your opponent when you win by that isn't. Are you beyond happy to win in rideouts in double OT? No doubt. Are you going to run around saying you destroyed your opponent after? If you did, I am pretty sure everyone that actually watched the match would think you are an idiot...

 

[MSU158]

I feel like I’m going insane. YOU are the one cherry picking the brief 2 year period where Iowa had the better team. YOU are picking the random number 14 so you can include 3 iowa titles that happened over a decade ago when the landscape was completely different.

Since Cael arrived in happy valley, he’s dominated. Acting like the landscape didn’t change is ludicrous. The pre-2011 landscape is not comparable to now. You want to keep going and bring up the Gable years as reason why Iowa is still keeping pace?

This was reasonable in 2014. Many, including myself, thought he had a perfect storm. But then he repeated it with a second generation. And then a third. It will take a monumental shift to prevent him from a third 3-peat. It’s hard to project this far out, but based on recruiting and who he has now, he’s the favorite to have a 3rd 4-peat 3 years from now.

Waiting for PSU to come back to earth is delusional. This is one of college sports greatest dynasties of all time. 9 titles in 13 years is insane. You’re damn right I’m jealous. I want that. I’m not going to apologize for wanting my team to be the best. It’s Tom’s job to catch up. Nobody will be more fired up than me if he does it.

To be clear, NEITHER of the time frames I picked are remotely cherry picked. The "brief" 2 year period is VERY recent. That is ESSENTIAL to disprove a narrative that Iowa has "fallen" so far behind PSU. How can that be true when they were the better team 2 of the LAST 3 seasons?? Sheesh.

The 14 year time frame was chosen because it essentially encapsulates Brands coaching career at Iowa. I get that we miss one year(2007), but to be fair, I also don't count Sanderson's 1st year at PSU when trying to make a fair comparison and judgement. They both didn't inherit dominant programs. They were brought in to FIX programs. Needless to say, BOTH won championships one year later....

Finally, I NEVER said to wait until PSU falls back. In fact, I don't see that for quite some time. If you actually read what I type, I have very definitively laid out why I think PSU is a juggernaut and how hard it is for Iowa to stay with them on a consistant basis. However, I have also laid out why the other 75 programs have a WAY less chance to be as close as Iowa has been and will continue to be.

Simply put, Iowa deserves more credit than guys like you give them. It isn't that they aren't a really good team under Brands. Hell, they average more AA's per season than every team, including PSU over Sanderson's time frame. It's just that PSU is a perfect storm of best head coach name recognition, best staff, best location, best RTC and, most importantly, ridiculous funding.

 

[bourbon n blues]

I do not disagree with you, but how often do we "beat them" with 1/10 of the firepower? We have 1 Natty in the past 13 years right? Kem was a #1 recruit in his weight class coming out of High School. So was Marinelli and so was Lee so for the 2021 season we had a lineup with credentials damn close to that of Penn State.. To compete regularly year in and year out that needs to occur more than once every 13 years.... To compete we need to recruit and/or develop better than we have. The class coming in is ranked #1 so we are on a good roll, just gotta keep it going now...

The nature of wrestling and the tourney will sometimes make things look better or worse overall for a team depending on how you want to spin it. Iowa won a title in 2021 of course had a relatively disappointing finals. Both are obviously important but most would agree a team title is better, but of course you want to win them all.
The recruiting edge worked both ways with some PSU injuries I believe. Great individuals but a loss of team points in the tourney, so yeah, you need as many great wrestlers as possible and quality depth.

 

[IRONBIRD]

Just having a 3 raccoon day, are you?
I had a busy, but great day. You on the other hand, i don't know. You cheer for a wrestling team that typically finishes 3rd just about every year and you are so petty and bitter about it that instead of enjoying the results the kids on that team put in to being an annual top 3 program, you bytch and whine about how superior Penn State's program is to Iowa's.
Amazingly sad.

I follow a real team as a real fan. Something you can't even fathom! Your life is one big lie!!!

You're a parody account at this point.

Better then you which is a nothing account!

Quite a few if PSU had 17 of them on the 2021 squad alone, as alleged by Ironbird.

uh what? Please show me where I said this dummy?

I see neither math nor facts in that entire post. LOL.

A blind man will see better then you so not saying much!

Here's the data that should shut you up regarding the "Carl can't develop" mantra, but it won't. You know what this data says? Just using 2009-2016 (since they've all graduated), it says that 75% of top ten recruits DON'T ever win a NCAA. If placing a monkey in the corner of a top ten guy wins championships, then there should be a whole lot more championships out of these guys.

Hoping that PSU loses Cunningham, or accusing them of cheating, or trying to tear down what they've accomplished is no way to improve the Hawks.

2009 - 5 of 10 (Dake/Taylor/Ruth/Perry/Ramos) - 12 total titles
2010 - 1 of 10 (Stieber) - 4 total titles
2011 - 1 of 10 (Megaludis) - 1 total title
2012 - 1 of 10 (Tsirtsis) - 1 total title
2013 - 4 of 10 (IMar/Cox/Retherford/Ashnault) - 9 total titles
2014 - 3 of 10 (Nolf/Nickal/Snyder) - 9 total titles
2015 - 3 of 10 (Joseph/Valencia/Martin) - 6 total titles
2016 - 2 of 10 (Hall/Suriano) - 3 total titles
2017 - 3 of 10 (Lee/Lee/Yianni) - 8 total titles so far
2018 - 3 of 10 (Steveson/Brooks/Carr) - 5 total titles so far
2019 - 1 of 10 (Starrocci) - 2 total titles so far
2020 - 2 of 10 (O'Toole/Ferrari) - 2 total titles so far
2021/2022 - 0 of 10 so far

I am NOT a cunningHAM is wonderful guy buddy. That is first, 2nd, This is NOT the data I asked for!!! It does however show many of F*** states champions though. Isn't that odd??? Taylor, Ruth, Megaludis, Retherford, Nolf, Nickal. Joseph, Hall, Brooks, Starfish.

ALL TOP TEN according to your data. TY for proving my point. I certainly hope that you would be the Lawyer against me at a trail. LMAO!!! Judge-" do you want to make a statement MR. IRON?"

Mr. IRON - LOL- "sorry your honor, I can't seem to stop laughing at this fool! Please let him continue speaking as he will make my case for me! TY"

Willie did an article on this last year. It looked at top ten recruits since 2015. It showed that PSU was ridiculously ahead of everyone else in % that won a national title.

YES, this is extremely easy to see and understand! Again, if the F*** st wanna be bandwagon dummies want to give the great PHrailure credit for something? Point to this fact. He is able to skate the rules using some dumb asses $$$$.

IOWA will catch and surpass them very soon and do it by the books too!

75% of ALL top ten recruits don't materialize, no matter where they go. The fact that F** State is batting at least 40% doesn't help your case.

This is just another lie. 75% don't materialize!?!??! If you ONLY say this meaning they didn't win NCAAs as your case? Well that is kind of dumb now isn't it? Guys reaching AA status IS materializing! It may not be their ultimate goal obviously, but for anyone who understands this sport. Being a college AA in wrestling, is probable one of the hardest things to achieve in all of college sports.

So the real numbers when looking at it this way would be. How many top 10 never AA. My guess is this numbers will show that a much larger % will.

 

[HawkeyePA]

After reading all of these statements OVER AND OVER... i have come down to three questions...
1) If Cael is the almighty and all wonderful that you preach about....why didnt he do anything meaningful at Iowa State ??

2) If PSU wrestling and their fan base is so wonderful.... why must all the PSU fans troll over on this site? I mean i have honestly yet to ever even check out the BWI site becuse I am NOT A PSU FAN so all I post would probably be considered Biased to the Hawkeyes...so i stay here to share a common support for the Iowa Hawkeyes.

3) Does driving past PSU campus , by Non- College students, qualify people to scream " We are" as much as having run into Bo Nickal at the Wegmans qualify me as the true wrestling historian and the All - Knowing poster on EVERY OTHER TEAMS BOARDS???

 

[kijana]

After reading all of these statements OVER AND OVER... i have come down to three questions...
1) If Cael is the almighty and all wonderful that you preach about....why didn't he do anything meaningful at Iowa State ??

Cael had a 2nd place finish and a 3rd place finish in the 3 years at Iowa State and he produced 2 national champions. That's better than what Iowa State typically did/does both before Cael became coach and after he left.

 

[js8793]

After reading all of these statements OVER AND OVER... i have come down to three questions...
1) If Cael is the almighty and all wonderful that you preach about....why didnt he do anything meaningful at Iowa State ??

2) If PSU wrestling and their fan base is so wonderful.... why must all the PSU fans troll over on this site? I mean i have honestly yet to ever even check out the BWI site becuse I am NOT A PSU FAN so all I post would probably be considered Biased to the Hawkeyes...so i stay here to share a common support for the Iowa Hawkeyes.

3) Does driving past PSU campus , by Non- College students, qualify people to scream " We are" as much as having run into Bo Nickal at the Wegmans qualify me as the true wrestling historian and the All - Knowing poster on EVERY OTHER TEAMS BOARDS???

If Cael decided tomorrow he wanted to go back to ISU, he would replicate his success there. He has the brand now. He doesn't even rely on PA guys anymore. 7/10 of his current starters are out of state. Of the other 3, Steen is really a back up, Haines and Starocci were both #1 in the country.

Why do some of you feel the need to pretend about this? Cael has tried to win the team title 11 times. He's won 9 times. Iowa won once. He likely would have lost in 2020. He's had 32 individual titles since 2011. Iowa has 7 (almost half of which are one guy). Averaging just under 3 champs per year is insanity.

What's the point in whining about it or pretending it's not real? It's not going to change things. Root for Iowa to get better. PSU ain't going away anytime soon (unless Cael retires early).

 

[HawkFan1986]

After reading all of these statements OVER AND OVER... i have come down to three questions...
1) If Cael is the almighty and all wonderful that you preach about....why didnt he do anything meaningful at Iowa State ??

2) If PSU wrestling and their fan base is so wonderful.... why must all the PSU fans troll over on this site? I mean i have honestly yet to ever even check out the BWI site becuse I am NOT A PSU FAN so all I post would probably be considered Biased to the Hawkeyes...so i stay here to share a common support for the Iowa Hawkeyes.

3) Does driving past PSU campus , by Non- College students, qualify people to scream " We are" as much as having run into Bo Nickal at the Wegmans qualify me as the true wrestling historian and the All - Knowing poster on EVERY OTHER TEAMS BOARDS???

As to point #2, it’s clear that psu fans enjoy trying to ruin every conversation over here just so they can slink back to BWI to attest how insane we are as fans. If you were to head over to BWI you wouldn’t find a thread where someone doesn’t take a swipe at Iowa 15 or fewer messages in. Of course, they get tired of talking shit behind our backs so they come here to do it behind their anonymous screen names.

The people that come here most frequently are obsessed with Iowa and their fans. It’s unhealthy the amount of time they spend here just attempting to create chaos. I genuinely feel concerned about their happiness. They have a generation dynasty going and all they can do is mock another schools fans for discussing areas we might be able to catch up in. Say one thing slightly off kilter and here comes the swarm of condescending comments.

This thread is unbearable. What was a potentially great conversation about future wrestling and closing the gap has descended into a shit storm of hate and mocking comments. All because a few (like fukking 10) psu fans don’t like the Iowa slant that our fans have on this board. Give me a break, how petty can you be.

I used to not like @mcpat but now he’s about the only one worth conversing with. Way to be the most palatable maggot on your rotten meat of a fan base.

 

[bourbon n blues]

75% of ALL top ten recruits don't materialize, no matter where they go. The fact that F** State is batting at least 40% doesn't help your case.

Another stat that might somewhat apply to this topic is PSU wins 70% of finals match since Cael took over , I think in recent years it's 90% with about 20 matches or so. So top 10 or not, if they advance to a certain point, they overwhelmingly win.

 

[bourbon n blues]

As to point #2, it’s clear that psu fans enjoy trying to ruin every conversation over here just so they can slink back to BWI to attest how insane we are as fans. If you were to head over to BWI you wouldn’t find a thread where someone doesn’t take a swipe at Iowa 15 or fewer messages in. Of course, they get tired of talking shit behind our backs so they come here to do it behind their anonymous screen names.

The people that come here most frequently are obsessed with Iowa and their fans. It’s unhealthy the amount of time they spend here just attempting to create chaos. I genuinely feel concerned about their happiness. They have a generation dynasty going and all they can do is mock another schools fans for discussing areas we might be able to catch up in. Say one thing slightly off kilter and here comes the swarm of condescending comments.

This thread is unbearable. What was a potentially great conversation about future wrestling and closing the gap has descended into a shit storm of hate and mocking comments. All because a few (like fukking 10) psu fans don’t like the Iowa slant that our fans have on this board. Give me a break, how petty can you be.

I used to not like @mcpat but now he’s about the only one worth conversing with. Way to be the most palatable maggot on your rotten meat of a fan base.

It's an internet free board, don't take things so hard or personally. Fan bases talk and wrestling is a pretty small community so opposing fan bases will show up here.

 

[MSU158]

If Cael decided tomorrow he wanted to go back to ISU, he would replicate his success there. He has the brand now. He doesn't even rely on PA guys anymore. 7/10 of his current starters are out of state. Of the other 3, Steen is really a back up, Haines and Starocci were both #1 in the country.

Why do some of you feel the need to pretend about this? Cael has tried to win the team title 11 times. He's won 9 times. Iowa won once. He likely would have lost in 2020. He's had 32 individual titles since 2011. Iowa has 7 (almost half of which are one guy). Averaging just under 3 champs per year is insanity.

What's the point in whining about it or pretending it's not real? It's not going to change things. Root for Iowa to get better. PSU ain't going away anytime soon (unless Cael retires early).

Seriously? Cael has created an unbelievably strong program. But, this is the WORST take on here. He left ISU for very specific reasons. There is NO WAY IN HELL he would match what he has done at PSU at ISU. Even with Cael, ISU would ALWAYS play 2nd fiddle to Iowa in that state.

PSU is one of the top 5-10 most powerful Athletic Departments in all of DI Athletics. SO many things are night and day better there than at ISU....

Now, with that said, would ISU be winning some championships and be a consistent top 5 program? Absolutey, but you are on crack cocaine if you think he would be winning 10 out of 12 at ISU.

Again, PSU and Cael TOGETHER are the reason for such incredible dominance. Are Cael and his coaching staff the best crew in DI? Sure. But, without all the other things PSU made possible, that wouldn't be enough to nearly be as dominant as he is now...

 

[js8793]

Seriously? Cael has created an unbelievably strong program. But, this is the WORST take on here. He left ISU for very specific reasons. There is NO WAY IN HELL he would match what he has done at PSU at ISU. Even with Cael, ISU would ALWAYS play 2nd fiddle to Iowa in that state.

PSU is one of the top 5-10 most powerful Athletic Departments in all of DI Athletics. SO many things are night and day better there than at ISU....

Now, with that said, would ISU be winning some championships and be a consistent top 5 program? Absolutey, but you are on crack cocaine if you think he would be winning 10 out of 12 at ISU.

Again, PSU and Cael TOGETHER are the reason for such incredible dominance. Are Cael and his coaching staff the best crew in DI? Sure. But, without all the other things PSU made possible, that wouldn't be enough to nearly be as dominant as he is now...

He would now. Everything you said applies to the old world. His brand has surpassed Iowa now. He plays second fiddle to nobody.

It won't happen, so we can't know, but recruits don't go to PSU because it's PSU. They go because of Cael. He could go to Utah Valley and have that team contending for titles within 3 years.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

PSU is a perfect storm of best head coach name recognition, best staff, best location, best RTC and, most importantly, ridiculous funding.

Seems you've come around. No longer focused on a singular effect (relative recruiting success), but now focused on proximate causes. But there is only one root cause.

The root cause is Coach Lorenzo's vision for PA (and PSU's) wrestling dominance. His personal relationship with Ira Lubert only helped achieve the vision. But to achieve the vision, there needed to be a well-thought out plan with specific goals that would allow the infusion of more funding.

A requisite of the plan was mutually beneficial partnerships among parties committed to the shared singular vision. More funding would only come after demonstrating progress and continued commitment.

Hopefully, Iowa has the kind of vision, plan, and patronage now (or will soon). It seems to be what this board is after. I hope Iowa isn't missing the plan part.

 

[MSU158]

He would now. Everything you said applies to the old world. His brand has surpassed Iowa now. He plays second fiddle to nobody.

It won't happen, so we can't know, but recruits don't go to PSU because it's PSU. They go because of Cael. He could go to Utah Valley and have that team contending for titles within 3 years.

His "brand" isn't remotely enough to go to another program and think everything just carries over. There is SO much more than that to creating the same program. You can try to deflect all you want by saying "only" 3 starters are from PA, but 2 of those are monsters. Having first dibs on PA for room depth and multiple pieces is HUGE. Being so close to NJ, NY and Ohio is huge as well.

Now, again, I am not saying he wouldn't be very successful, but PSU has played a VERY significant part with his level of success. If you think he recruits the exact same to ISU as PSU you are delusional. Let alone thinking he gets the resources necessary to match the RTC and facilities. No offense to Iowans, but Ames isn't exactly a hot destination.

PSU is what made all the things Cael wanted to do possible. Think Tom Brady. As good as he was, was he winning a single Super Bowl for Detroit? Hell no. New England was the perfect match for him to be so dominant. Now, just like Cael he could go somewhere else and still get a win here or there(Tampa was a ready made team just missing a QB that season), but the level of dominance wasn't happening somewhere else.

Make no mistake PSU always was the sleeping giant with by far the most potential. They just needed the right guy to wake it up. You put the best coach with the best resources and it only makes sense that they would be the clear best year in and year out...

 

[TarpHawk]

The numbers go down from there so there is some validly to the rankings, but they are far from exact. There are always going to be guys that emerge that were under the radar in high school. In the end, it seems only the top 2-3 are high percentage hits and even they can still bust.

NCAA seeds for 2022 (essentially, predictions made just prior to the tourney) were 70% accurate for predicting finalists, 70% accurate for predicting champs, and 74% accurate for predicting AAs. In other words, good, but far from perfect.

Predicting that 10 particular high school seniors are going to place at NCAAs at least once in the next 5 years, with a 50% success rate, seems remarkable. A 25% success rate at predicting future NCAA champs seems equally remarkable.

The only perfect predictions are death and taxes. If you can hit 51% on anything else, you can make a good living in Vegas.

 

[MSU158]

Seems you've come around. No longer focused on a singular effect (relative recruiting success), but now focused on proximate causes. But there is only one root cause.

The root cause is Coach Lorenzo's vision for PA (and PSU's) wrestling dominance. His personal relationship with Ira Lubert helped only achieve the vision. But to achieve the vision, there needed to be a well-thought out plan with specific goals that would allow the infusion of funding.

A requisite of the plan was mutually beneficial partnerships among parties committed to the shared singular vision. More funding would only come after demonstrating progress and continued commitment.

Hopefully, Iowa has the kind of vision, plan, and patronage now (or will soon). It seems to be what this board is after. I hope Iowa isn't missing the plan part.

I have ALWAYS said there are a slew of reasons why PSU has been so good. Nothing has changed. I have simply said that recruiting is, by far, the most significant factor. Now, that doesn't mean all the other parts do not contribute to that level of recruiting. I absolutely think they do. However, I stand by my comment that if PSU lineup averaged the 30 or so p4p ranking that Iowa has, they wouldn't win NEAR the amount of times they have.....

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

recruiting is, by far, the most significant factor

most importantly, ridiculous funding

Mhmmm

 

[Iron Doc]

This. Thread. Is. Awesome.

 

[masterhawk74]

He would now. Everything you said applies to the old world. His brand has surpassed Iowa now. He plays second fiddle to nobody.

It won't happen, so we can't know, but recruits don't go to PSU because it's PSU. They go because of Cael. He could go to Utah Valley and have that team contending for titles within 3 years.

wow, weird take

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

PSU is what made all the things Cael wanted to do possible.

Rich Lorenzo (for PA) and Cael's dad (for UT) having near identical visions is what made it possible. Sure, PA could to do what UT couldn't. ISU was somewhere in between.

Such a perfect fit of circumstances seems just too rare to believe it will repeat in my lifetime. Seems almost impossible to duplicate.

I believe much of what Cael does honors his father. That kind of motivation can't really be developed after the fact.

 

[MSU158]

Mhmmm

You keep trying to turm my "what" into a "why". This alone is why I hate proximate causation. I want to narrow down factors instead of convoluting things with minutiae. It isn't my job to figure out all the little steps that were taken to get where we are now.

The most simple truth is Cael's recruiting IS the one most looked to factor for the level of dominance. Now, I am not arguing that ANYTHING you have listed didn't contribute to why PSU is where it is. I will gladly give you every one of those talking points. But, I will say with 100% confidence that you can have EVERYTHING you listed and PSU would NOT be winning remotely like they are if their starting lineup averaged 30 pfp across all 10 weights...

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

It isn't my job to figure out all the little steps that were taken to get where we are now.

Lucky for Iowa wrestling (and MSU's before that).

Too bad figuring out the little steps is exactly what's needed. Or at least the right next step.

 

[bourbon n blues]

You keep trying to turm my "what" into a "why". This alone is why I hate proximate causation. I want to narrow down factors instead of convoluting things with minutiae. It isn't my job to figure out all the little steps that were taken to get where we are now.

The most simple truth is Cael's recruiting IS the one most looked to factor for the level of dominance. Now, I am not arguing that ANYTHING you have listed didn't contribute to why PSU is where it is. I will gladly give you every one of those talking points. But, I will say with 100% confidence that you can have EVERYTHING you listed and PSU would NOT be winning remotely like they are if their starting lineup averaged 30 pfp across all 10 weights...

I can’t disagree with anything you wrote. He’s recruiting much better than anyone while being at a solid ( prior to his arrival ) wrestling school that happens to be the flagship school in the state sports wise.
And it’s the best high school wrestling state in the country near other great states .
It all adds up to what we see now.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

I will say with 100% confidence that you can have EVERYTHING you listed and PSU would NOT be winning remotely like they are if their starting lineup averaged 30 pfp across all 10 weights

I agree 100%. Let's hope that's not part of PSU's plan.

 

[MSU158]

Lucky for Iowa wrestling (and MSU's before that).

Too bad figuring out the little steps is exactly what's needed. Or at least the right next step.

It's not my job, or really yours for that matter, because we aren't the ones running the damn program. Feel free to continue being obtuse. I literally conceded every single one of your talking points. However, you keep bouncing away from the fact I clearly pointed out. If I gave you EVERY single one of your other points, would PSU be winning with the same level of recruit Iowa has had over that time frame, instead of the 5 p4p average they have now?????

Edited to add: I see you answered that part while I was typing this response. So, with that answer, honestly we are pretty damn close on the what AND the why for PSU's dominance. I get why you value all the parts you listed. But, it CAN be simple as well. IF, Iowa were recruiting at Cael's level, which he basically has done even before PSU did all the things to get where they are now, Iowa would be right there with PSU. Now, the things they need to do to get to that point, since no one on that staff is remotely the recruiteer Cael is, may even be more intricate than the things PSU has done...

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

It's not my job, or really yours for that matter, because we aren't the ones running the damn program. Feel free to continue being obtuse.

Agree 100%. Carry on. I also said you were coming around.

I don't understand your motivation for posting. Or what you mean by "by far the most significant" vs "most importantly."

Coming to conclude you don't remember what you post shortly after you post it, or assume you are clear and consistent.

Hope that's not too obtuse for you.

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

But, it CAN be simple as well. IF, Iowa were recruiting at Cael's level, which he basically has done even before PSU did all the things to get where they are now, Iowa would be right there with PSU.

I don't agree it's that simple. Others have responded to another poster addressing this.

 

[MSU158]

Agree 100%. Carry on. I also said you were coming around.

I don't understand your motivation for posting. Or what you mean by "by far the most significant" vs "most importantly."

Coming to conclude you don't remember what you post shortly after you post it, or assume you are clear and consistent.

Hope that's not too obtuse for you.

Well, I guess the adage about speaking the same language and not being able to understand each other is true in our case. You can continue to not understand my stance and assume whatever you wish. I don't post with any consideration of your understanding my motivation. Feel free to conclude what you wish. I can't be more detailed than I have been and am happy to leave us at this current level of "disagreement". Have a wonderful day!

 

[mcpat]

Way to be the most palatable maggot on your rotten meat of a fan base.

 

[slushhead]

I follow a real team as a real fan. Something you can't even fathom! Your life is one big lie!!!

Better then you which is a nothing account!

uh what? Please show me where I said this dummy?

A blind man will see better then you so not saying much!

I am NOT a cunningHAM is wonderful guy buddy. That is first, 2nd, This is NOT the data I asked for!!! It does however show many of F*** states champions though. Isn't that odd??? Taylor, Ruth, Megaludis, Retherford, Nolf, Nickal. Joseph, Hall, Brooks, Starfish.

ALL TOP TEN according to your data. TY for proving my point. I certainly hope that you would be the Lawyer against me at a trail. LMAO!!! Judge-" do you want to make a statement MR. IRON?"

Mr. IRON - LOL- "sorry your honor, I can't seem to stop laughing at this fool! Please let him continue speaking as he will make my case for me! TY"



YES, this is extremely easy to see and understand! Again, if the F*** st wanna be bandwagon dummies want to give the great PHrailure credit for something? Point to this fact. He is able to skate the rules using some dumb asses $$$$.

IOWA will catch and surpass them very soon and do it by the books too!

This is just another lie. 75% don't materialize!?!??! If you ONLY say this meaning they didn't win NCAAs as your case? Well that is kind of dumb now isn't it? Guys reaching AA status IS materializing! It may not be their ultimate goal obviously, but for anyone who understands this sport. Being a college AA in wrestling, is probable one of the hardest things to achieve in all of college sports.

So the real numbers when looking at it this way would be. How many top 10 never AA. My guess is this numbers will show that a much larger % will.

After reading all of these statements OVER AND OVER... i have come down to three questions...
1) If Cael is the almighty and all wonderful that you preach about....why didnt he do anything meaningful at Iowa State ??

2) If PSU wrestling and their fan base is so wonderful.... why must all the PSU fans troll over on this site? I mean i have honestly yet to ever even check out the BWI site becuse I am NOT A PSU FAN so all I post would probably be considered Biased to the Hawkeyes...so i stay here to share a common support for the Iowa Hawkeyes.

3) Does driving past PSU campus , by Non- College students, qualify people to scream " We are" as much as having run into Bo Nickal at the Wegmans qualify me as the true wrestling historian and the All - Knowing poster on EVERY OTHER TEAMS BOARDS???

^^^Why tweets like the following happen: