That wasn't the deal. We were liberal from the start and the liberals got pragmatic.
How United States politics really works...
- Thread starter NoleSoup4U
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see, that's where you are having a myth in your mind . maybe the old school way of defining liberal
but definitely not started out as liberal democrat, it was a republic from the beginning, with liberty and freedom and libertarian ideals. for sure. the newer liberal democrats are totalitarian. basically they evolved into socialists and communists.
when this country started, it was more aligned with tea party libertarian republican views
it evolved into the statism we see today
I'd say I'm more sensible than most on these issues. Intelligence is something that can't be measured in a forum like this. Libertarian types tend to have come from either side of the aisle at one time or another. In time though they began to see through the lies because of their naturally cynical nature.
If the common person cannot grasp that the major atrocities of our government have in fact been bi-partisan in nature, then I would say they either lack the knowledge or are not sensible enough to admit it.
All of the ideas about protecting individual rights and governing by consent are liberal in origin. The liberals made a deal with the conservatives to allow them to keep slavery. It was an unstable foundation from the beginning. Eventually the liberals won and erased that sin.
Liberals are hypocrites, just like conservatives are. They claim that Lincoln would be a democrat today, but ignore that classical liberals are libertarian by today's standards. They want it both ways. They like to post studies claiming liberals are more intelligent than conservatives, but ignore that those same studies consistently show libertarians to be more intelligent than liberals. They can't use the same strawmen and deflections against libertarians that they do against the far right wing, and it kills them.
Natural can't even thank libertarians for taking the lead role in gay rights. He's so proud of what democrats have done in the past five years he ignores that it never would have happened if not for Libertarians fighting the battle for over four decades.
My system isn't necessarily a system. Its the allowance of natural occurrence and to take positive action against negative occurences when feasible. Control freak nature is what offsets the ability for that to happen. It's all yin and yang when it comes down to it. Do you ever notice in stories and history that the villains often sought to justify their actions by claiming that what they were doing was for the better good? That is basically all you get from our government these days.
-We're spying on you, but it's for your safety.
-We're occupying countries and killing folks, for the safety of all.
-We're going to take your money and give it to the rich, for the safety of all.
-We're allowed to kill you, detain you, and persecute without trial, for the safety of all.
-We will tell you how marriage should roll, for the safety of all.
The government tells you that we must fight the terrorists who want to take away our freedoms, and do this by taking away our freedoms. Neither side of the aisle is innocent of this movement to state control. So from that conclusion which is undebatable unless you want to lie about it, leads us to a point to where the system is the major causer of those issues.
Do you disagree and how would you counter this argument?
Actually the first Civil Rights act came from Republicans in the 1800's. If you want to get technical on this. It shouldn't be attributed to any category though, as Civil Rights, or as I like to call them, Humans natural freedom, should have been 'allowed' in the first place.
This is always where you go blind. Your system has no mechanism for ensuring "positive action against negative occurrences". In practice, your system is more likely to produce negative action against positive occurrences, because its always easier to be the thief then the builder. You're Pollyanna naivete would be cute if it didn't so obviously endanger the rest of us.
How many times must it be pointed out that Rs used to be the pro labor liberal party when they started. I wish Rs would get back to their liberal roots. But the first civil rights act came long before there were Rs or Ds.
The problem is libertarians don't take a role. If they passed legislation, I would thank them. But they don't because they can't. I thank those who actually score points. There is a disturbing lack of pragmatism and flirtations with fantasy coming from your tiny team.
Doesn't that underlined statement of yours paint Big governments folly's in a perfectly summed up and accurate picture? Good one Natch.
They do take a role, they just don't match the red or blue ones and therefore you deny that role.
They lecture people on message boards. They sometimes exceed 1% of the vote.
So I guess you don't think the lineman or defensive players in a football game matter because they don't score points?
You will need to break it down more. I suspect much like libertarianism, its a position that only makes sense in your head and quickly falls apart on examination.
Libertarians aren't on the active roster. They're the free agent punters waiting for a call from a team in case their punter is injured.
And this response is covered in my first post in this thread. You're too predictable. You need to mix it up some.
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Point to the libertarian linemen? This is a concrete issue. Show me the concrete results. Every lineman and defensive player has stats that show their contribution to the game. Give me your stats. Because I can show you mine. I can prove how electing liberals gets me laws that protect my rights. I don't think you can show the same. Because you aren't actually on the field playing the game. You have to possess the ball to score. Rights are very pragmatic.
Obviously not, I already have you on the run and I haven't even needed to dispute your claim. Just asking you to spell it out was enough to get you to turn tail.
Nah, they're the ones pointing out the lies with the wars. Bringing to light the Freedom Act and what it actually means. They're the ones who pointed out the connection between Bin Laden and the CIA, they're the ones who question why we focus so much on Iran and ignore Saudi Arabia. Libertarians have also pointed out our operations in Africa, despite most having no idea they are going on.
They speak to those that wish to actually know, rather than those that wish to continue the in fighting. Some people are libertarians and they don't even realize it.
Politics isn't a match sport no matter how much two party sheeple want it to be. Libertarians do have a measurable effect, albeit we are overwhelmed by the herd. Drug reform and gay rights would not be swinging the way they are without the actions of Libertarians. The fight against government intrusion into every aspect of people's private lives is lead by libertarians, not liberals or conservatives. From politicians at local and state levels, to street level politicking and briefs and position papers filed by libertarians institutions such as Cato, we are effecting some change and do have some influence on both of the major parties. Just because some of you are offended by our denial to fall in line, doesn't mean we aren't involved.
I haven't turned tail. I beat you soundly and am just watching you flounder like the kid who lost the game and is in complete denial of it. I'm already at Dairy Queen having my victory shake. Enjoy your participation trophy.
In a way, this is a good dialogue.
People who identify as Liberal are clearly able to express the points about society that they adamantly agree upon. Civil Rights, allowing others to live in their own respective peace, observing mutual respect for one another and our "property", peoples' behavior is of their own choice and should come with personal responsibility, etc., etc.. It's all a mutual agreement between all the posters in this thread. I see no religious zealots in this thread.
Where it gets muddled is when the liberal-minded people feel compelled to identify politically and believe that the only way we, as individuals, make ANY kind of difference, or push things ahead, is ONLY when we participate in the most corrupt and divisive institution since religion- POLITICS! The one or two here, like Natural, are always aligning themselves with "Democrats." Now, that's fine. But, the Democratic Party is a part of a social/political system that identifies and rewards people, not by their personal or individual character, but by the amount of power they can gain or offer in controlling the rest of the masses. That's what the system fuels itself on- Power! How much influence can a person, or group of people, provide for the institution, how much revenue can they generate, and how much property can they claim ownership over... that is what these "political parties" are meant to fulfill and maintain. They are institutions of acquisition. Whatever forms of acceptable social governance drips off of them is minimal. Politics is power. Liberal thought and behavior has no interest in power. Trying to pair politics with it only dilutes and detracts from it.
So, claiming there's some game going on, and the only way to play the game is wearing one of two uniforms, is fine. But, if you actually believe that these teams care in the slightest about the human condition improving, you're misleading yourself. We, as human beings, collectively evolve into our social behaviors based on our own instincts and the experiences we have and create for ourselves and each other. This invention called "government" is just the best we can do at the moment, in terms of having an exterior "code" for everyone to follow as a group, while we have our own ideas as individuals. The impediment is that superiority exists in human nature and government and religion is where it shows up in it's most dangerous forms. Trying to claim one political party is better or worse is like claiming Baptists are better than Methodists.
People who identify as Liberal are clearly able to express the points about society that they adamantly agree upon. Civil Rights, allowing others to live in their own respective peace, observing mutual respect for one another and our "property", peoples' behavior is of their own choice and should come with personal responsibility, etc., etc.. It's all a mutual agreement between all the posters in this thread. I see no religious zealots in this thread.
Where it gets muddled is when the liberal-minded people feel compelled to identify politically and believe that the only way we, as individuals, make ANY kind of difference, or push things ahead, is ONLY when we participate in the most corrupt and divisive institution since religion- POLITICS! The one or two here, like Natural, are always aligning themselves with "Democrats." Now, that's fine. But, the Democratic Party is a part of a social/political system that identifies and rewards people, not by their personal or individual character, but by the amount of power they can gain or offer in controlling the rest of the masses. That's what the system fuels itself on- Power! How much influence can a person, or group of people, provide for the institution, how much revenue can they generate, and how much property can they claim ownership over... that is what these "political parties" are meant to fulfill and maintain. They are institutions of acquisition. Whatever forms of acceptable social governance drips off of them is minimal. Politics is power. Liberal thought and behavior has no interest in power. Trying to pair politics with it only dilutes and detracts from it.
So, claiming there's some game going on, and the only way to play the game is wearing one of two uniforms, is fine. But, if you actually believe that these teams care in the slightest about the human condition improving, you're misleading yourself. We, as human beings, collectively evolve into our social behaviors based on our own instincts and the experiences we have and create for ourselves and each other. This invention called "government" is just the best we can do at the moment, in terms of having an exterior "code" for everyone to follow as a group, while we have our own ideas as individuals. The impediment is that superiority exists in human nature and government and religion is where it shows up in it's most dangerous forms. Trying to claim one political party is better or worse is like claiming Baptists are better than Methodists.
And here I am just pointing at the scoreboard as you skip off for ice cream. Spectators tend to care a lot more about concession treats.
Nah, it's just your the coach that can't admit he's lost. The scores already high enough on my side to have won 18,000 games already. It's been explained to another, who asked the same question.
You keep telling yourself that. I pointed out some of our scores and you should be thanking us for fighting your battle for you, because Democrats didn't give a damn until Libertarians did the hard work. Just because your guy or girl sneaked the ball in at the goal line on a couple of issues doesn't discount people like me carrying the rock the length of the field to set up that score.
Because?
Politics is just religion.
If you could take politics out of government, we'd be set! If you could take religion out of understanding God, we'd be set. We're getting there in spite of them both.
It should be easy to point to one of those 18,000 victories and yet they remain a phantasmic. Strumm is right, politics is about power. Its about getting your worldview written into law such that you can go to court and act upon that reality. Liberals and conservative both get that and both make a difference while libertarians skip through the tulips licking their ice cream and chatting with the butterflies. Its like talking to people from a Disney cartoon.
