If Israel doesn't accept cease fire - f em
- Thread starter Jimmy McGill
- Start date
Jimmy - the UN reported this week there is cause to believe the hostages are actively being raped and tortured. Right now, still.
Take a moment and pretend you are the father of one of those hostages. I would not fault you one bit if you went full scorched Earth to rescue them. Israel has not gone full scorched Earth.
We can disagree all day long on policy but I trust you understand why many on the pro-Israel side feel the way they do.
I wouldn't expect jimmy to understand or care, his answer for the hostages is in the thread title.
The goal isn't eradication of all Palestinians which is a ridiculous premise. If it were, there'd be no more Gaza.
Hamas is a cancer that has been allowed to fester. No more cutting away at the margins, it's time to get it all out.
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The evil people who insisted on putting those kids out front as shields really know how to play the game. Your acting as their spokesperson is helping too.
Supporting them puts blood on your hands too, whether you realize it or not.
Look in a mirror before talking about stupidity. Nothing Israeli has done approached what happened in 8 hours last October. And there are terrible and hateful Israeli people for sure, no where at the percentage of Hamas. Apples and Oranges on the actions and level of overall hate and desire for peace on both sides.
i think the question is whether the current strategy will be succesful in not just removing hamas, but preventing future insurgencies and terrorism groups from taking hold
seems like its not completely different than a lot of america's efforts in the middle east...maybe this one will end differently
Amen. Getting your info and using it as part of your POV from John Oliver is interesting.
After years and years of tunnel construction, Gaza/Hamas is more or less impenetrable. At some point, it was going to require an invasion.
The surgical stuff is taking place now, as they search tunnels one by one for hostages (and booby traps) and then implode them.
Considering they normally grow up to be terrorists you're correct in your assessment.
No, I just have compassion for the innocent kids being killed whether it's by Israel or because Hamas is nearby. the kids are still being killed either way and it could be prevented. It's on both Israel and Hamas for their deaths. You seem fine with killing them because Hamas is around them. I do not.
I'm not defending Hamas. It's a horrible terrorist organization. All of Gaza and it's people are not though. Why is that so hard to understand?
Gee, no shit. When you kill 30,000 of their family/friends, that tends to breed hate. It doesn't matter if Hamas is eliminated or not. Those kids are going to hate Israel because of the slaughter of friends and family.
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How you arrived at thinking I’m fine with innocent children dying anywhere on the planet for any reason is a mystery to me so I’ll just treat it as a wild assumption on your part.
Starvation, abuse, neglect, murder, untreated illnesses happen every day to those least able to help themselves- and that group by far is largely children.
But suddenly a terrorist group willfully uses them for publicity and it’s a new phenomenon.
Are you being paid to do this?
And conversely Israeli children are supposed to look past a slaughtered family member who went to hear some music on October 7th and never came home. That only shows that you are speaking for a group who knows the Israelis have forgiven time and again and yours won’t.
Because the people not affiliated with Hamas or the PLO before them tolerate their presence and their actions.
The hate has always been there, that's how the war started. That wasn't a group of friendly Palestinians wondering in to listen to the music festival.
Why? Because you are defending their killings. Before this post ^^ you hadn't utter one word of compassion for the innocents being killed in Gaza. Instead you defended it.
Either the people of Gaza are with Hamas or against Hamas? Nothing has been put forward to indicate they are against Hamas.
Therefore Palestinians = Hamas.
I defend the Israelis right to EXIST and to defend themselves.
Compassion was certainly absent on October 7th. To use it now in a blatantly obvious play at victimization is almost predictable and troll like.
And you brought compassion in pretty late in this conversation.
If only compassion had been part of the atrocities committed by unsuspecting innocents on October 7th.
Holy shit. This is what astonishes me. It's so easy to not be so flagrantly stupid. And, yet, here you are. Just read a damn wiki page, for ƒuck sakes.
"Are there terrible and hateful Israeli people for sure" —— ?? —— this is about the Israeli government. This is about the actual apartheid policies enacted by the Israeli government on the Palestinian people.
Again, read Pogrund. Chronologically. Listen to talks by Chris Hedges.
Apartheid… occupation… are these good things? Or bad things? When people resist apartheid, occupation… are they to be held to a higher standard than their oppressors? Apparently so, in some cases. Right?
Different lives, valued differently.
You have blinders on. Israel has been pillaging, kidnapping and killing Palestinians at a rate that far, far, far exceeds the inverse. Israel, the State of Israel, has openly expressed its goal and plan to rid Palestine of Palestinians, to take the land — real estate, essentially — for itself.
"Nothing Israel has done approached what happened in 8 hours in October." Really? How freaking dumb and ignorant are you?
Just own it. Own that you have not gone to the trouble to challenge your own propaganda-fueled perceptions, to arrive at a fuller understanding of this thing. Just own it.
But, you know, I realize that different lives get valued differently. And that's fine for some people. Maybe even a lot of people.
But it's not fine for me.
Why is Israelism an important film to see?
Who is Chris Hedges and why should I listen to him? Who is this Benjamin Pogrund and what makes his writings interesting? I mention these two simply because one is an important journalistic voice who is decidedly not afraid to seek and journal truth, even at the expense of his own career. The other because another poster cited him in an effort to counter my claim that Israel had reached the point of apartheid with respect to Palestine and Palestinians. He cited a 2014 article, in which Pogrund, an internationally-recognized (recognized by the State of Israel, no less) expert on apartheid, coming to Israel's defense against the at-the-time claims of it being an apartheid actor. So I read the 2014 article, and wondered, you know, if this same expert feels the same way today? So I researched his writings, to find a Summer 2023, or maybe 2024, article in which Pogrund lays out his argument for Israel being no longer defendable against this claim, that it was in fact an apartheid state with respect to Palestine.
Again, if all this is too much, because, you know, ƒuck all those 30+ thousand dead Palestinians, now million+ crammed into one small sliver of land, forcibly starving, forcibly prone to mass communicable disease, ƒuck them. They don't deserve the time of day. 70 years of varying degrees of displacement, occupation, destruction of property and farmland, of restrictions on resources, of at-best Jim Crow-like sub-status, and, you know, at worst much, much worse. Fück them.
Don't even deserve 20 minutes with John Oliver.
If someone was trying to kill my whole family or had them as hostages, my response wouldn't be based on whether the attacker is my friend when it's done. My response would be to protect my family.
You do you, dude. You always do anyway.
We’re all just privileged to read your profound utterances.
Translation: This woman throws it right back at me.
I wonder why the neighboring countries do not want to take Palestinians as refugees seeking asylum?
The Jews were sent to what is now Israel by the U.N. they made it a prosperous modern nation.
The Palestinians are just the opposite they enjoy living in squalor, probably why no other country wants them.
There isn't any room for a 2 state solution anymore, the Palestinians blew that opportunity once they embraced Hamas.
You know damn well I’ve done extensive reading and research on this. Goldie, think. When in history has a military occupation EVER resulted in anything just and moral for the occupied. When.
Right now news is coming in every day of another infant dying from starvation. Starvation. Not because food isn’t available a mere miles away. But because food and medicine are being blocked by Israel. This is genocide plain and simple.
I invite you to check just the couple sources I suggest. They’re just a couple. See where it takes you. Check their credibility. I invite you.
Will you check them out? Doubtful. I invite you nonetheless.
You do you? Sure, I will. Shamefully, so will you. Took you several years to finally realize your error in fawning over Trump. Will it take as long to realize your error in coming to the defense of a nation committing genocide?
I'm curious or I missed something but I see where the U.S. is air dropping food and working on additional aid to these alleged starving people. The U.S. is halfway around the world in relationship to Gaza however neighboring oil rich countries who are miles away don't seem to be interested in helping out the Palestinians.
Did I miss something here? I haven't seen the Saudi Air Force dropping food and supplies did I miss that?
Did I miss something here? I haven't seen the Saudi Air Force dropping food and supplies did I miss that?
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My God I used to think you were pretty smart.
Regardless of your penchant for switching names.
I go way the hell back in being aware of the issues surrounding Israel and the hatred and division.
I was a senior in high school when the Six Day War broke out and my Arab classmates had parents and grandparents who fled Syria and Lebanon. Not necessarily because of Jews and Israel but also because their Christianity put them in danger from Muslims who were their fellow Arabs. I saw the grandparents and parents anguish over that war.
I don’t endorse starvation of anyone from babies to the elderly.
So military occupation doesn’t ever go well? I agree. Let’s pull out of Germany. It’s only been 80 years.
I have my own opinions and I will hold on to them. You’re entitled to yours as well.
They aren’t building a dock to offload supplies either but we are. Has Jordan offered assistance? Egypt has a shiny new wall to keep out the reverse fleeing led by that Jew dude Moses. . Parting of the Red Sea is not an option I guess.
The Arab world wants nothing to do with the Palestinians, they think of them as rabble or even worse.
Yet the usual crowd on this board portray them as nothing but innocent lambs.
Seems the Arabs know them a lot better than some of the creeps on this board.
Are you actually relating our having military bases in Germany to the military OCCUPATION of Palestine? Really?
I also love your thinly-veiled suggestion that it’s only Christians (and Jews, I suppose) whose “safety” has been under threat in this history.
JFC just look at the raw numbers of kidnapped, killed, imprisoned without process or trial between these two. Israel’s been the hammer in this relationship by a factor that I think you should research yourself.
Again, different lives valued differently, I understand.
You want me to be the dumb one, here. And, yet, you appear resolute in not accepting my invitation.
Goldie, if you must, stay in your safe space. But I’m not being dumb.
Listen to Hedges’ talks. Read up on his career. You pretend to have an appetite for truth-seeking. But do you? Do you really?
Read Pogrund’s writings, chronologically, as I have. It’s a great arc of analysis of the relationship.
Or just assert that I’m dumb.
I wish I was wrong. Because being right about this puts me in a country siding and abetting, a direct accomplice.
Watch Israelism.
Watch John Oliver’s piece.
How did we get to that point right before the bases were established?
Now I remember. We ground the Nazis to dust and took measures to eliminate them from German society.
What we didn’t do was grant the Nazis a ceasefire, until after their unconditional surrender.
Weird how you totally glossed over that, being so well read and all…
No. I will not.
And exactly what ARE we doing in Germany if we’re NOT occupying it? You’ve got a more accurate term for it?
I will gently make a suggestion to you. Get over your apparent fascination/obsession with me. I’m frankly not interested in your wanting to argue and then criticize me if I fail to see things your way.
I don’t begrudge you your POV. I just don’t share it.
Of course you won't.
Your comparison to the US having bases in Germany to Israel's occupation of Israel shows just how terribly and shamefully you do not understand what's going on, and what's been going on, for several decades. For what? To defend a fascist regime carrying out genocide and ethnic cleansing, carrying out their explicit goal of displacement and territory takeover? This was always the Zionist plan, and it takes very little effort to research this.
Just read a wiki page to (maybe) better understand just how silly your US-in-Germany equivalence actually is.
You chose to challenge me, with neither merit nor attempt to present information, or sources, negating my claims nor my sources. That deserves criticism. Trying to draw equivalence between what the US military has in Germany and Israel's occupation of Palestine deserves criticism. It just does. Your attempt to deflect and then avoid having your perceptions challenged — I mean, damn, it's really sad.
I'm not asking you to share my point of view. I'm asking you to, if you're actually going to challenge my views — with zero attempt to provide information or sources that prove my sources and information to be wrong — then at least give my info and sources a chance. Just take a look/listen.
@RagnarLothbrok is a friend of mine. He was a defender of Israel in a similar manner as you seem to be. We had some really heated arguments. He came across an article by Pogrund in 2014, using it to attempt to deny my assertion that Israel was guilty of apartheid with respect to Palestine. When I showed him that this same author (and internationally-recognized expert on apartheid) defending Israel against charges of apartheid in 2014 had since written in defense of these same charges, laying out the case for why and how Israel has reached the point where it actually is guilty of genocide, I think it sort of forced him reconsider.
Look, I think we, as citizens of the most powerful country on the planet, a country with a full and sordid history of all manner of colonialist crap, have a very serious and sober responsibility to be skilled and committed to seeking and knowing full truth, to recognizing and dismissing propaganda, and to holding power to account therein.
With great power comes great responsibility, does it not?
Have a wonderful International Women's Day, Goldie.
