“Engaging,” is an interesting concept. Not every strategy to score has to involve tying up.
Another strategy would be to avoid ties by backing up/circling and only launching an attack moving forward when there is an opening.
Issues to address
- Thread starter TarpHawk
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Another strategy would be to avoid ties by backing up/circling and only launching an attack moving forward when there is an opening.
Our biggest problem is even when we are engaged we don't pull the trigger. Hand fighting and head pulls galore but we just set up more hand fighting and head pulls. Guys don't pull the trigger enough and finishing is a problem when they do. Take away RBY and Austin has great shot volume and finishing. Healthy Kem and Spencer as well. The rest are lacking.
Seems quickness is an important physical trait for wrestlers and shouldn't be punished.
146 schools with d-1 wrestling in 1981
75 in 2022.
Wrestling participation numbers in Iowa over that time frame would follow that same pattern
I watched what these Penn Staters do in Iowa City a few weeks ago. .Very good wrestlers and Experts at stalling the matches away without getting called. Always have enough gas left to get the last takedown.
The debate was NOT about what else Iowa wrestlers could do. I have gone on record several times, even in this thread, where I point out that Iowa guys almost solely rely on ties for offense and I think it is more about recruiting style than even training or coaching.
With that said, the ENTIRE debate has been about calling out Iowa guys for stalling in these positions, while flat out ignoring their opponents are avoiding wrestling in these exact positions. In the cases of them going out of bounds they aren't forcing a different style on Iowa wrestlers, they are fully avoiding wrestling, PERIOD. So, THEY are the ones that would be stalling by going backwards and inevitably out of bounds.
Now, I get why Iowa opponents do it, and as long as they are NOT getting pounded with stall calls, the tactic is efficient and I don't blame them for doing it. I just don't like hearing someone try to blame Iowa wrestlers for stalling on top of it. That is simply an uneducated take.
Finally, I think you really need to see Iowa adapt. Either recruit guys that are more able to attack from space or find ways to get their opponents more off balance and/or keep their hips and feet below their heads, or preferably, below their hands. They aren't able to create any offense when their opponents are hips back, head forward and arms extended.
The only other thing I could see, still from the ties, that doesn't seem to be an Iowa thing would be some form of slide by, elbow pass, arm drag or something similar from that series. Marinelli could have been quite deadly with these and I never really noticed him working those positions...
Where and when did I say quickness, in any form, should be punished? My issue was calling the aggressive wrestler for stalling because his opponent goes straight backwards out of bounds. Make no mistake, you don't have to engage in the ties at all and can STILL avoid going out of bounds while implementing tactics and positioning that best benefit "quickness". My entire issue in this thread is wholesale labeling the "Iowa Style" as just pushing out of bounds and stalling because of it. It is an extremely uneducated take, from a mainly biased fanbase that doesn't understand what all goes into the actual wrestling.
Simply put, a DI wrestler should ALWAYS be able to stay in bounds if he made a concerted effort to do so. There are a myriad of ways to avoid the ties, without going straight backwards. The really funny part is most of these guys also wrestle from the ties, but don't like getting caught up on the inside ties where Iowa is best. So, THAT is really why you see so many of them inevitably going backwards. It isn't because they don't want to tie up, it is because they mostly now feel trapped and are essentially fleeing the hold in the only fashion they know how...
I've3 seen others argue the opposite of this quite well and make a viable claim that people do this to stall.
"Most people aren't athletic enough to shoot from space. You have to be super quick, compared to the guys you're wrestling who are also very quick. Not something you can just learn."
I mistakenly quoted you when I was referring to this post.
I fixed the above for you....I will stand 100% firm that the arguments you see have ZERO substance and come more from a fanbase bias, than anything else. Why do I say that? Because, Aaron Brooks actually does damn near the same thing against any of his higher level opponents and they end up out of bounds rather often.
Do you and agoodnap think Aaron Brooks stalled a lot when his opponents went out of bounds. Should he have been called for stalling instead of Hidlay in last year's NCAA's?
Yeah, of course there is no fan bias from Iowa fans, right? Why not adjust accordingly? Why not wrestle more in the middle? Somehow I think if the roles were reversed you'd be saying what I'm saying. And I would say you're right.
Either way the supposed stalling isn't being called to me it appears to be similar to holding or PI in football. Adjust your game planning according and adapt then. I would imagine a great wrestler would be able to roll with this and take advantage of this situation.
How is it a good point at all? Maybe it is the referees call based on what he sees. Avoiding engagement by running away vs pushing someone out?
You are 100% wrong here. I call it like it is. When people are stalling for the sake of stalling, I wouldn't back down no matter who is doing it. Warner is a great case in point. He is a master stall rider. Marinelli and Cass are very good at the thigh pry ride as well. I have zero issue pointing that out as an Iowa stall tactic.
I just DO NOT see a guy whose entire offensive repertoire for basically all of his DI career, as stalling now that his opponents will no longer move forward or actively engage against his ties. Let's be clear, Murin and Marinelli are the 2 most often in these situations, with DeSanto and Young to a lesser degree. Marinelli and DeSanto scored in bunches until this "avoiding" tactic came more prevalent, while Murin actually scored more this year than he has simply because he has improved overall.
Also, to be clear, I don't think Brooks is stalling in these positions either. He is asserting his will and trying to force his style on his opponent. That should NEVER be considered stalling, as long as that style is trying to constantly improve offensive position and should not be penalized when the opponent is obviously running away from that position vs. trying to improve his offensive position.
I call it like it is means I call as I see it through my filter and biases. If these are the rules as called now adapt and work with it. There will always be subjectivity in officiating and it's best to learn what it is and work with that. I knew how to work officials in powerlifting. If you think you might cut a squat a tiny bit high approach that bar with certainty, set up solidly and quickly, squat, wait for the signal and rack it. You look uncertain they'll watch it closer.
Every sport has these nuances and it's best to use them to your advantage. You want it a different way but currently it isn't that way, you can argue " shoulds"| as much as you like but I'm talking about " how it is now". When it changes, wrestlers must adapt.
If you continually back up, you're stalling. It's not that complicated. Also - for Bourbon - the officials do call it. The problem is they are too slow getting the first stall warning called and often times, the staller is rewarded for his tactic.
You do know that MSU stands for Michigan State University right?
I am a biased Iowa fan, but most of what MSU158 is presenting is common sense IMO. It really isn't that difficult to comprehend.
Lol, what you don't get is I have been very vocal that I am a fan of wrestling before any team. My "filter and bias" doesn't preclude me from thinking a Spartan is stalling, let alone a Hawkeye.
If there is any "filter or bias", it is my actual interpretation of the rules and implementation of those by the referees. That part is simply and undeniably the human component. But, it is NOT effected by any fandom whatsoever.
Another example is my stance on Hidlay vs. Brooks since that match. I am a big fan of the Hidlays and really hoped Trent would be a Hawkeye. As such, I was cheering for him big time and really wanted him to win. Still, I had ZERO issue with his being called for stalling. He didn't try hard enough to stay on the mat. If that isn't a perfect example, I don't know what is...
The 2 hidley v brooks matches drove PSU fans nuts. AB stalked him all over. Trent played the edge masterfully and almost got a NC out of it the first time.
Well PSU guys play the edge too. PSU guys do whatever is needed to win. Yes that means running when it is needed and it means riding to ride too.
In Deans post NC Match he starts to talk about his warner game plan and catches himself and stops talking. I think he was about to say he just needed to wait warner out because they knew he was prone to do something less than ideal in the 3rd. Dean just needed to avoid the stall calls to get there.
Stalling is a problem in the sport from a visual and fan experience. Its not called consistently from youth to college. Coaches/wrestlers know who calls what and can game around that.
In my mind the issue is and always will be the refs not enforcing the rules. Expecting coaches and wrestlers to not push the envelope is just silly. They all do. It also might be said coaches are probably ok with it, because if they werent they would be pushing to see it changed.
Sure they b!tch about it but thats for the press/alumni. I think they are ok with how its called overall.
If refs called stalls early as in the 1st period or early in 2nd from a ride, the matches would be that much more entertaining, i think.
All pretty true, coaches like consistency. They want to know what they're dealing with and be able to game plan.
Ok, but I'll still stand by know how the referees will call things and adapt. You can argue all you want how they're not following the rule book but the map is not the territory. When you're face with what it going on you have to deal with that.
I've seen PSU fans whine about holding calls, well I've seen most fan bases do that, but it is what it is. You better see how things are going and roll with it.
It's interesting how the rules/officiating has seemed to change from where the responsibility of the top man is to work for a fall or near fall points. Working for and getting the fall has always been the main objective and the top guy's responsibility. Seems like that has gone out the window, just like moving forward or at least holding you ground in neutral while actively looking to score not just counter on the edge.
Maybe I hit that with too broad a stroke. The brands are doing something wrong and penn state is doing something right. And that’s not to say brands’ are doing everything thing wrong because they’re clearly elite at what they do. We’ve had the horses the past 3 years and only got one title (2 in my mind) but even if healthy, I think we lose this year. In every head to head when it counts, we’re out-scouted. In every big semi and final, they win. Penn state goes a year or two rebuilding then it’s domination for 4 years straight or more. And we’re seeing it again. We would’ve had 2 but that’s it and now we’re fighting for 2nd again. I like tnt but I didn’t like that long of a contract extension. Leaves no room for other attractive options if some arise. I’m a believer that the athletes of today are better than yesterday. And the ones who learn from the old but bring new technique and perspective are the ones who can win in today’s climate. I hope to be wrong.
WOW, you need to read and understand. I know the rules and the rules need to change so Wrestlers have to WRESTLE!
YES, TY
I want the rules to adapt to make wrestling better again. You should try watching matches from years back to understand. The whole game plane for many Wrestlers is to what I call stalling and playing the edge. As was pointed out by another poster. Dean all but said that was their game plan against Warner. IF that match had taken place when I wrestled. Warner wins easy because he was at least trying to Wrestle!
YES
Yes!
