Issues to address

[Agoodnap]

#3 Someone said it very clearly somewhere. What is typically know as IOWA STYLE does not work well when the F-in refs do not call stalling!!! Clearly rules have to be changed. PUSH OUTS like FS would be a great start.

This is because the refs have read the rules. You should as well. Here is the rule that few here seem to grasp. Some refs are still calling it stalling but those guys are clowns. Oh, and please don't lecture me on one guy backing up. When someone is intentionally pushing them out of bounds with no intention of taking an offense shot it's stalling.

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position.
Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart�

Here is the rule book:
NCAA Wrestling Rule Book 2021 - 2023

 

[PSU Mike]

Very interesting numbers. Thanks for doing this. It gives a different perspective while we are trying to nurse our wounds and calm our emotions.

I am suprised at how well Cornell looks here. If you add a 5th-8th place in for their 2021 Covid year, they are still ahead of tOSU and not far behind John Smith and his Cowboys.

If you think there’s merit in tapping into the PSU mindset as the fresh perspective, I think you need to be intrigued by what Koll may be able to do in Palo Alto. You have a serious track record, the personable young blood in Joseph from the trendy program, and one of the schools that can really separate itself academically in a sport where the top kids have the discipline — and their folks often have some $$ to invest in their young wrestlers — to really give a recruiting and development advantage.

As a totally random side note I’m old enough to have had Bill Koll teach my wrestling PE class at PSU.

 

[grapplefann]

If you think there’s merit in tapping into the PSU mindset as the fresh perspective, I think you need to be intrigued by what Koll may be able to do in Palo Alto. You have a serious track record, the personable young blood in Joseph from the trendy program, and one of the schools that can really separate itself academically in a sport where the top kids have the discipline — and their folks often have some $$ to invest in their young wrestlers — to really give a recruiting and development advantage.

As a totally random side note I’m old enough to have had Bill Koll teach my wrestling PE class at PSU.

And I'm old enough to have Gable teach my PE class at Iowa State. You're not the only geezer here.

 

[PSU Mike]

And I'm old enough to have Gable teach my PE class at Iowa State. You're not the only geezer here.

But Koll was a 3-timer. 😉

 

[grapplefann]

But Koll was a 3-timer. 😉

He was also from Ft Dodge, Iowa.

 

[el dub]

Tom himself has said Carl is doing what gable did and possible at a better rate. So relax. Carl’s record speaks for itself and I loathe that mfer. Truly would piss in his mouth but he does win.

You had me shaking my head in the affirmative… until that laaaaast line. Lol

 

[BBptg5]

You had me shaking my head in the affirmative… until that laaaaast line. Lol

first off…tom is not doing what Gable did…not even close.

 

[el dub]

first off…tom is not doing what Gable did…not even close.

I know reading is hard, but…. It might be worse than you thought. Lol

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

They recruit better, their athletes develop in their program, and they seemingly love their coaches and the environment. How many of their champs talked about coming to PSU to be the best. We collectively eyeroll, but I think this resonates with a lot of kids.

They're coached (and likely paid bonuses) to give a recruiting pitch in their post victory speeches. Cormier caught on to that pretty quickly.

 

[anon_0pi0cv8t1ggvb]

"If a coach starts listening to the fans, he's going to wind up sitting next to them."- Marv Levy

Would do Iowa football and Kirk some good if he'd listen to the fans and fire his son though.

 

[bourbon n blues]

This is because the refs have read the rules. You should as well. Here is the rule that few here seem to grasp. Some refs are still calling it stalling but those guys are clowns. Oh, and please don't lecture me on one guy backing up. When someone is intentionally pushing them out of bounds with no intention of taking an offense shot it's stalling.

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position.
Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart�

Here is the rule book:
NCAA Wrestling Rule Book 2021 - 2023

Yeah

 

[bourbon n blues]

They're coached (and likely paid bonuses) to give a recruiting pitch in their post victory speeches. Cormier caught on to that pretty quickly.

Maybe they believe in their team .

 

[Boomhawk52]

You had me shaking my head in the affirmative… until that laaaaast line. Lol

Slappy likey

 

[bourbon n blues]

You had me shaking my head in the affirmative… until that laaaaast line. Lol

Yeah,that was odd lol.

 

[Mustangdog]

"If a coach starts listening to the fans, he's going to wind up sitting next to them."- Marv Levy

I think we all need to remember we’ve got at least two things going for us in the near future. The new wrestling facility and Spencer Lee on staff. These two things by themselves will keep us very competitive.

 

[dtripp26]

Here's a little tidbit I thought may be relevant. Ed Ruth was 3-1-1 and in an interview right before his senior year he was asked what his goal was for the year. He said that beating Casey Cunningham was his number one. He further said that no one in the room had ever beaten Casey in a live go. He left 3-1-1-1 without reaching his goal.

Jeff McGinness beat Casey Cunningham

 

[dtripp26]

first off…tom is not doing what Gable did…not even close.

Tom said Carl and psu are doing what Gable did...

 

[Agoodnap]

Jeff McGinness beat Casey Cunningham

Oh, I didn't realize Jeff McGinness was in the Iowa room training your guys year round. When did he start?

 

[Mohawk65807]

Keep recruiting better, schedule smarter, strategize throughout the year

Does Iowa measure it's propsects? Body fat, hand size, height for wt class, etc. Much easier to snatch singles, cradle, and effectively use other techniques, if you have the God given tools. Look for explosive and lengthly athletes if possible. Assume dedication is in place.

 

[bourbon n blues]

Does Iowa measure it's propsects? Body fat, hand size, height for wt class, etc. Much easier to snatch singles, cradle, and effectively use other techniques, if you have the God given tools. Look for explosive and lengthly athletes if possible. Assume dedication is in place.

With anything I think you look at that and performance. Let's say I go out for wrestling a Junior like Louden Swain and I'm some kinesthetic freak, maybe I have the physical attributes that might make me great and initial success is high, yep.
But I bet it's easier to see a long term track record with the physical traits.

 

[bdcolt45er]

With anything I think you look at that and performance. Let's say I go out for wrestling a Junior like Louden Swain and I'm some kinesthetic freak, maybe I have the physical attributes that might make me great and initial success is high, yep.
But I bet it's easier to see a long term track record with the physical traits.

You need a lot of hours to have the feel and technique in order to be a high level guy in this sport. Even at the college level you can see some guys thinking sometimes almost step like in some of their technique. The elite guys can "feel" the opportunity and simply react. I don't know that there is enough allotted contact time to allow for the development of that "feel" in college. You need a pretty significant foundation when they arrive and we are seeing that. It is very common to see guys ready to compete very early sometimes from day one.

 

[bourbon n blues]

You need a lot of hours to have the feel and technique in order to be a high level guy in this sport. Even at the college level you can see some guys thinking sometimes almost step like in some of their technique. The elite guys can "feel" the opportunity and simply react. I don't know that there is enough allotted contact time to allow for the development of that "feel" in college. You need a pretty significant foundation when they arrive and we are seeing that. It is very common to see guys ready to compete very early sometimes from day one.

And Vision Quest was a book and movie of course, lol. I'd guess there are some great ones who start relatively late but I'll also guess it's close to zero.

 

[Muscles1989]

What are the chances after next year Spencer is brought onto the staff as asst coach / head recruiter. Gotta keep him around the program even if it pushes out one of the assts there now.

 

[el dub]

What are the chances after next year Spencer is brought onto the staff as asst coach / head recruiter. Gotta keep him around the program even if it pushes out one of the assts there now.

Didn’t I read somewhere that Spencer will probably be concentrating on bringing home Olympic gold for a number of years upon graduating?

Then I’ve read that he and GS will be doing a WW? pro wrestling tag team thang…?

 

[IRONBIRD]

This is because the refs have read the rules. You should as well. Here is the rule that few here seem to grasp. Some refs are still calling it stalling but those guys are clowns. Oh, and please don't lecture me on one guy backing up. When someone is intentionally pushing them out of bounds with no intention of taking an offense shot it's stalling.

Art. 10. Stalling by Pushing or Pulling — Offensive or Defensive Position.
Pushing or pulling the opponent out of bounds so as to force a restart�

Here is the rule book:
NCAA Wrestling Rule Book 2021 - 2023

What didn't you understand? I said the RULES HAVE TO CHANGE, push outs like FS would be a start. You may think that it is just one wrestler pushing another off the mat? It is however much harder then that. It is position, hand fighting, and the willingness top "get in the fight!!!" Many teams and wrestlers do not do this and it is bad for the sport!

 

[CesspoolHawk]

Spot on. It's almost all feel and muscle reaction. That's why I have to laugh when I see clueless posts unloading on our guy about not 'wanting' to be offensive or not 'wanting' to get the major etc etc. We are being scouted and put into positions outside of our comfort zone. We need to spend more time developing offense when a guy isn't pressuring into us all the time. You can;t flip it on like a lightswitch, it takes alot of repetition in the practice room to be offensive in any given situation.

As long as the step out rule isn't around the corner, we should be filling our RTC with as much non-Iowa style as possible including enough guys who wrestle a more PSU style so that the entire team gets a feel on a regular basis. Instead of (or in additon to) bitching and whining on a message board, we can all step up and donate to the HWC so we can get some fresh blood in the door sooner. The best way we can help improve our team is to help close the gap financially between our RTC and PSU's.

Couldn’t the team staff also be non Iowa style? Our general style of pushing in your face grind it out style has been this way for a decade. This isn’t 2013. We’ve gone through enough cycles of our guys or reloads to see something significant needs changing. If not, we’ll be right back heee in a few years and PSU will have reloaded with another set of young studs while our seniors limp to the finish line.

 

[bourbon n blues]

What didn't you understand? I said the RULES HAVE TO CHANGE, push outs like FS would be a start. You may think that it is just one wrestler pushing another off the mat? It is however much harder then that. It is position, hand fighting, and the willingness top "get in the fight!!!" Many teams and wrestlers do not do this and it is bad for the sport!

Sounds like sumo.

 

[T8KUDWN]

They need to start awarding points when a wrestler rolls across their back in neutral. The majority of the time diving, grabbing and rolling with the ankles to defend a shot turns into a stalemate. From time to time it creates an exciting scramble, but normally eats clock while the 2 wrestlers are grabbed onto the others leg.

 

[Agoodnap]

What didn't you understand? I said the RULES HAVE TO CHANGE, push outs like FS would be a start. You may think that it is just one wrestler pushing another off the mat? It is however much harder then that. It is position, hand fighting, and the willingness top "get in the fight!!!" Many teams and wrestlers do not do this and it is bad for the sport!

Well, you were complaining that the refs aren't calling stalling and in a way, so am I. Only difference is that the guy pushing is the one that by rule is stalling. Why can't you understand that pushing someone out of bounds in folk is stalling AND is Boring as all heck to watch.

 

[el dub]

What didn't you understand? I said the RULES HAVE TO CHANGE, push outs like FS would be a start. You may think that it is just one wrestler pushing another off the mat? It is however much harder then that. It is position, hand fighting, and the willingness top "get in the fight!!!" Many teams and wrestlers do not do this and it is bad for the sport!

There are those who prefer not to play into the strength of their opponents. And you can’t MAKE them wrestle a particular style.

Btw, I REALLY get tired of watching our guys chasing opponents around the mat. It leads to too much reaching and easy take downs by opposition when they finally change directions and catch us coming forward.

I’m not sure I like our overall strategy under the current rules. If push out points become a thing, our current edge game and forward pressure would make more sense, imo.

 

[redghost1974]

I am in favor of 0-0 first period, both get a stall call if there wasn't any scramble situation. I am still amazed 3 minutes can go by with zero points and zero stall calls. Wrestlers get to the prone position where both have a foot, you get a 5 or 10 count and then stalemate, maybe we save some ACLs.

 

[el dub]

I am in favor of 0-0 first period, both get a stall call if there wasn't any scramble situation. I am still amazed 3 minutes can go by with zero points and zero stall calls. Wrestlers get to the prone position where both have a foot, you get a 5 or 10 count and then stalemate, maybe we save some ACLs.

Watching the old vids, it looked like stalemate was called a lot sooner in an effort to keep action flowing rather than two guys simply hanging on for dear life?

 

[YoungGun07]

I think health is the main factor.

McDonough, Clark, Lee, Marinelli, Kemmerer, Eierman, Ayala, Brands, Moore, Assad, Murin, Stoll, St John, (and more than I'm forgetting or dont know about) have all had serious injuries that limited their performance. I know other schools have injuries, but Iowa has more, and it can't just be a coincidence or bad luck.

I don't know if its lack of S&C, overtraining etc. but that needs to be the #1 thing they figure out going forward.

I don't think we would be worried about the style, development, recruiting etc if guys stayed healthy, we would like their style more, they would develop better, and Iowa would win more.

 

[24 so far]

Well, you were complaining that the refs aren't calling stalling and in a way, so am I. Only difference is that the guy pushing is the one that by rule is stalling. Why can't you understand that pushing someone out of bounds in folk is stalling AND is Boring as all heck to watch.

Pushing or engaging? There's a HUGE difference, some folks understand this. That's where the Ref comes into play (and they have an extremely difficult job, so I tend not to get too caught up in those conversations).

Since Iowa teaches their Wrestler's to engage, we might be better off changing our recruiting strategy to include stallers as the workout partners so our starters can get a better feel of how that works in real competition.

 

[pml_dad]

Back to Tarp's points -

Here are the issues the coaching staff needs to address. Spoiler alert: There is no Tom bashing in this post. This is all meant to be constructive, not griping or sniping.

1. Injuries. Why so many this year? Is it just bad luck or something more?

2. Individual improvement. We didn't see much if any year-over-year improvement by individuals this year. One could say Tony's new physique, but that didn't help him. One could say Warner's run to the finals, but that was more coin-flip than improvement. No one looked like they'd made a decision in the offseason to become an NCAA champ. Overall it was a look of stagnation up and down the lineup and throughout the season.

3. Philosophy & Style. What style does Iowa Wrestling embody? Constant attacking? Better conditioning? Better technique? Fans are not seeing the secret sauce. Too many 2-1 chess matches. Too little urgency. Too many OT losses.

4. Recruiting & Development of Champs & Multi-time Champs. NCAA titles favor champs/finalists/multi-time champs. Spencer Lee turned the tide for Iowa. But other than Lee, we have a problem recruiting and/or developing champs. Iowa hasn't had an individual champ other than Lee since 2017 (Clark). Iowa hasn't had a multi-time champ other than Lee since 2012 (McDonough). This is a serious problem that hasn't yet been solved beyond a single individual. We need a better plan going forward.

5. Transfers. A whole new full-time endeavor. We need an A+ strategy. (P.S. We loved ADS & Eierman.)

6. Broader Legacy. If things continue on this trajectory, Tom's legacy will be that he was the second best coach of the 2000s-2020s. That's better than Ryan, Smith, Koll, etc. But it's not what he wants (or we want). No one is expecting an Iowa title in 2023. But I guarantee most are hoping for 3+ more between now and 2029. How does Tom go out with a bang like Gable and secure his legacy?

7. Awareness of Fan Feedback. The Rivals board is indeed the cesspool. But don't discount what fans are saying. There's always a grain of truth in the most scathing comments. Iowa Wrestling is the product, and the comments you're seeing are the consumer product reviews. Fortunately, most of us will be Iowa fans no matter what.

I think the OP's email should be messaged directly to Tom Brands and signed "every Iowa fan." Although recruiting seems to be casting a wider net already, we just may not have seen the fruits yet.

 

[Agoodnap]

Pushing or engaging? There's a HUGE difference, some folks understand this. That's where the Ref comes into play (and they have an extremely difficult job, so I tend not to get too caught up in those conversations).

Since Iowa teaches their Wrestler's to engage, we might be better off changing our recruiting strategy to include stallers as the workout partners so our starters can get a better feel of how that works in real competition.

I can see one of us understands the difference between pushing vs engaging and that one also understands the rules of folkstyle wrestling. If you push someone out of bounds it's stalling. Iowa wrestlers are often clearly pushing in an attempt to get a stall call and a restart, with no intention of taking a shot. Same with running a guy out of bounds when on top. Like watching paint dry.

For engaging, see Nick Lee vs Kizhan Clarke in this years finals.

 

[vhsalum]

Back to Tarp's points -

I think the OP's email should be messaged directly to Tom Brands and signed "every Iowa fan." Although recruiting seems to be casting a wider net already, we just may not have seen the fruits yet.

thomas-brands@uiowa.edu

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

Pushing or engaging? There's a HUGE difference, some folks understand this. That's where the Ref comes into play (and they have an extremely difficult job, so I tend not to get too caught up in those conversations).

Since Iowa teaches their Wrestler's to engage, we might be better off changing our recruiting strategy to include stallers as the workout partners so our starters can get a better feel of how that works in real competition.

That's some quality "outside the box" thinking. ^^ But seriously, some, not all, but some, of what is impacting Iowa on the national stage is related to "style" IMO. On one hand, you have to tip your cap to the grapplers that achieve at the highest levels, but the current "product" that is D1 wrestling is broken.

Way, way too many BORING 3-2 matches with just about as many shots taken as Barney "One Bullet" Fife. (And yes, that includes various Iowa wrestlers too.) We REALLY need rule changes that reward risk taking...hoping that a ref is going to call stalling to fix anything is foolishness IMO...it's just not going to happen reliably, or at all, etc.

 

[pml_dad]

thomas-brands@uiowa.edu

Too funny, I would need to get every fans permission to really sign it as such though

 

[Old_wrestling_fan]

I can see one of understands the difference between pushing vs engaging and that one also understands the rules of folkstyle wrestling. If you push someone out of bounds it's stalling. Iowa wrestlers are often clearly pushing in an attempt to get a stall call and a restart, with no intention of taking a shot. Same with running a guy out of bounds when on top. Like watching paint dry.

For engaging, see Nick Lee vs Kizhan Clarke in this years finals.

Which, at least for the first couple of minutes, was a highly entertaining battle. Credit to Clarke for letting the fur fly!