last years roster had Garza, Wieskamp, Keggen, Kris….
never once did they all play together…
=coaching blunder
kris Only had 40 minutes played
= coaching blunder
Kris deserves to start
- Thread starter Chicagoherky71
- Start date
never once did they all play together…
=coaching blunder
kris Only had 40 minutes played
= coaching blunder
Lot of mental gymnastics and confirmation bias going on here.
When people try to come up with conclusions about a players level of play that day based on 11 minutes I have to laugh.
I agree that none of us should read too much into 11 minutes of playing time. That being said, players do need to bring it every game. Fran does stick with the players he feels are bringing it on that particular day, sometimes to the detriment of other players. I think Kris was caught up in that today.
What was Pmac's line? 4-11 for 12 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal and 0 blocks in 32 minutes of play?
You're analyzing Kris' line compiled in 11 minutes of play? He played less than 6 minutes in each half. Simply extend this line out to the 32 minutes that Pmac played today. It looks like 6-12 and 15 points assuming no 3's made. He's 3rd on the team in 3pt percentage BTW so odds are he cans at least one. 6 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 blocks.
So on this day that demonstrates how Kris was limited to 11 minutes because it was a "prime example" of how he's "inconsistent", he was actually trending toward a day where his line was better than pretty much everyone except Keegan. Was he at his best? Maybe not. Was he out of his mind spectacular like he was the other night? No. But on a day that he wasn’t his best he is still the second best player on this team.
Maybe people should stop looking for Kris to get consistent numbers and start looking for him to get consistent minutes because that's the biggest obstacle to him putting up consistently bigger numbers.
Seems to me like there's wildly different standards based on how much Fran trusts a player.
To me the common sense approach is to play the best players and just assume that over the course of a season you will be better off rather than try to make a reactionary decision on every play.
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Don’t most coaches set different standards based on how much they trust a player?
Nail on head.
His numbers are already consistently better than every one but Keegan.
Sure but usually that trust is based on performance.
That doesn't seem to be the case this year.
Its more of a tenure situation going on.
Or frustrated by not playing. Kris isn't a guy you can just say well he didn't make all his FG attempts in the first 10min five him the hook. He generally affects the game in more ways than Patrick can. He definitely doesn't need to be brought along slowly. Just my opinion
Kris also gets tired soooo easily! He's always winded!
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Francis McCaffery played Kris Murray 11 minutes the game after he scored a career high.
You only get so many heartbeats in life, so Fran is trying to help Kris out by bringing him along slowwwwwly! Riverboat Franmbler got this, yo!
Plus, Pat was tearing it up!
You only get so many heartbeats in life, so Fran is trying to help Kris out by bringing him along slowwwwwly! Riverboat Franmbler got this, yo!
Plus, Pat was tearing it up!
Yeah, and most coaches don't set different standards for their two sons and their adopted son (JBo).
We’re now 4 pages in. Fran is going to continue to give Pat more minutes than Kris come Hell or High Water. It doesn’t matter. @RocknRollface youre going to give yourself a heart attack. The only reason Kris got time in the last game was the early fouls on Rebraca and Keegan. He’s going to continue to let Patrick run around and not guard anyone. It just is what it is. Accept it and take a deep breath. Just like JBO running the point at the end of games or being in there no matter what. Even though Fran was going to give him the keys. He just didn’t tell him he had to be home by 10.
The second team was on the floor in the second half when Minnesota started their comeback yesterday. Fran took those players out after three minutes of play to try and slow down Minnesota. This impacted playing time for Kris, Tony and Arhon in yesterday’s game. We will see what happens in the next game.
Have you done an analysis of this? How many coaches have sons that have played for them? I do not recall there being that many, so this is kind of a unique situation that most coaches do not experience.
this is like the reason Michael Jordan was so good,
because Dean Smith brought him along slowly, limited his minutes…
WRONG
Problem too is Fran is almost going with the hockey line shift change. Where are starters play first 7-8 then next thing you know we have 4 subs in plus usually Keegan around 10 min mark. Kris should be first guy off the bench for either of our 3-5 spots on the floor and come in earlier especially with Rebraca's foul issues. As has been said here Fran's rotation could do a lot better of spacing out his subs. We saw in first half didn't matter but no coincidence just like Wisconsin game first half and 2nd half yesterday MN starts their run clawing back when we have our 2nd unit in. Fran waits a minute or two too long to sub guys in at 8 min mark and we don't see any of them rest of the game. As for Patrick night and day difference between how him and Kris handle contact and score around the basket in the lane. Kris doesn't shy away from contact and is crafty getting his shot up and doesn't settle for off balance floaters. It won't happen with who our coach is but no reason their minutes shouldn't be closer considering skill set and production.
This is basketball. There is no second team. There are starters and there are reserves. You don't pretend that there is a clear cutoff in talent between the first 5 and the second 5 and that dictates minutes. You play your best players. Period. When they get tired or in foul trouble you bring in reserves. Every player is different in their abilities and conditioning. 75% of Keegan is better than 100% of anyone else om the team. That's why he stays in. Kris is better than any player not named Keegan. Pmac was obviously gassed after having played nearly the entire game and still he played while Kris sat. JBo looked gassed as well missing open shots by wide margins Made zero sense to leave those 2 in there down the stretch.
Regardless of whether or not you want to call the players who do not start reserves or the second team, do you agree that a change needed to be made at the timeout around the 8:00 minute mark of the second half once Minnesota had cut the lead to 13? The players in the game at that time were not getting it done. The players Fran brought back in let Minnesota cut the lead to three so they did not do their job either, but I know that I was hoping for a player change as I watched the game at around the 9:00 minute mark of the second half and it had nothing to do with me hoping for more or less playing time for any particular player.
I agree with this as well. I believe that Fran tries to go with the hot hand, but sometimes it can be difficult to distinguish yourself if the group is not meshing well during that particular game. I believe that this is what happened to Kris yesterday.
What I was hoping was that Fran would have called a timeout as soon as momentum started to turn and the crowd got into it. That didn't happen. What I was hoping was that Fran would have played his best, freshest players regardless of what you called them the last 8 minutes. Those players did not include Pmac and JBo who played most of the game and launched errant 3's that weren't close and committed unforced turnovers. They were playing like they had nothing left in the tank. They are not great defenders or rebounders when fresh. When gassed they're not serviceable. Leave Keegan, Rebraca, Kris, Tony and Joe in there to finish. Kris, Tony and Joe were a lot fresher and Rebraca had to stay as a rebounder. Keegan it goes without saying. Again, I really am mystified by Fran's game management right now. I just don't get it.
Fran has done it so much during his tenure that the hockey line metaphor is applicable.
It shouldn't be, though.
That's part of the problem with the starter/minutes issue. In a better managed situation you could start Patrick if you wanted, but he would average fewer minutes than Kris. But the "starters get more minutes" mentality combined with "second unit player" throws a wrench in that. The exception being Joe T. He has a very short leash and gets buried on the bench for long stretches. Part of Fran's inscrutability.
It shouldn't be, though.
That's part of the problem with the starter/minutes issue. In a better managed situation you could start Patrick if you wanted, but he would average fewer minutes than Kris. But the "starters get more minutes" mentality combined with "second unit player" throws a wrench in that. The exception being Joe T. He has a very short leash and gets buried on the bench for long stretches. Part of Fran's inscrutability.
A player had 29 and 11 in a Big 10 game and the coach of that player decided that 11 minutes is enough in the following game. Does a player that had 29 and 11 in a Big 10 game need to be brought along slowly?
I can appreciate what you said. I try not to get too wrapped up in playing time as long as the team wins the game, but I can understand what you are saying. I believe that there have been concerns about Fran's rotations every year except one, when he only had a seven man rotation due to injury.
I believe that you may have missed some sarcasm in the post from HotelAlphaWilco.
I would agree with most of this, Kris has been inconsistent thru the year, but from an eye test perspective he is still the 2nd best player on this team, and IMO by a wide margin. He constantly hustles and probably gets himself in a little trouble because he's trying too hard to make something happen in the minutes he gets.
He had 29 points and 11 rebounds against Indiana with Jackson Davis and Race Thompson, who else on our team is capable of that other than Keegan? Clearly no one. It boggles the mind to think he follows that performance with 11 minutes the NEXT game, even though he wasn't playing that well when he was in. Let your BEST players play and hopefully play out of it. Everybody has bad games now and then regardless how good they typically are.
It's as if Fran has this mindset that we need Player X (Kris) coming off the bench so we have some potential scoring when he does his line change. Why not start both of your best players and stagger some of their minutes as the game moves along? If you're really trying to win, and win by as much as you can, you play your best players more minutes than everyone else. It just boggles the mind.
I do believe if Kris was a Starter, and had a reasonable expectation that he'd be expected to play 30 minutes a game, he would eventually figure out how he needs to play to stay on the court and still be effective on both ends of it. That comes with experience.
Both of the Murray Boys do things others on this team just can't do. That's abundantly clear to me. Play them both for as long as they can stand it and not be gassed.
Of course I'm happy they won. They won a B1G game on the road which they really needed, but this is an ongoing issue that is going to impact wins and losses going forward. I know it shouldn't be so frustrating to watch as it's pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. I'm an analytical guy that has always relied on numbers and data to make business decisions and when decisions are made that appear to directly contradict the available data it grates on me. That's just how I am.
The off balance floaters need to stop. How about a jump stop and an on balance mid range shot.
It's absolutely true. Fran can go ahead and attempt to prove us all wrong and play Kris 30 minutes a game for 4-5 games in a row and see what happens. He's the 2nd best player on this team even with his limited minutes and off nights. I don't think it's remotely debatable. He has so many positive intangibles compared to the rest of the roster it's glaring IMO.
Let Kris Murray figure out how to be a 30 minutes a game player in the Big Ten, this year, not after Keegan is gone.
Patrick hit a mid range jumper in the game yesterday against the zone. He had not driven into the lane so he did not have to stop, which probably allowed him to get his feet set.
That would be preferable. Pmac seems like a great kid, but I wish his Coach would tell him his "throw it at the backboard and pray" strategy isn't sound fundamental basketball. 😏
But this will never happen outside of an injury. That's part of my frustration. I can't help but wonder what Kris thinks about all of this.
I don't care if they start together, but I do want one of them on the court at all times. Keegan has proven he can somewhat create his own shot when necessary. Kris looks to have similar skills, but not quite up to Keegan's level (probably due to playing time over the last year and a half). I do think they should play long stints together, but the Hawks should have a rotation that guarantees that at least one of them is always on the floor. I like Kris as a sixth man, but 20+ minutes a game seems a no-brainer. I do not know if there was a health issue yesterday that limited Kris's minutes, so I am not going to make a big deal out of his 12 minutes of playing time after playing 29 and 21 in the previous two games.
Well when healthy we usually do have one of the brothers on the floor at all times. Unfortunately that is for the McCaffrey brothers not the Murrays.
I will argue his point that we have three post players "who can score efficiently in the post." And if they're just in there to provide extra fouls and parading the other team to the foul line, we are going to lose games at the line. If that's me being obtuse, then so be it. Between the Ogundele and Mulvey, they have had ONE effective game stretch so far this season and that was at Purdue. Either of them, or perhaps both of them, may eventually become productive members of the team, but neither are ready for that now.
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FM, IMO, has not put his best lineup on the floor for significant time all year. That would include 2 Murrays and probably no MC's. It appears he cannot get beyond his children and what is best for Iowa BBall. JMO
They were picked to finish 9-10th in the conference this season, a position I believe you agreed with. They're 7th now and you believe they should somehow be contenders but McCaffery is blowing it by sandbagging Kris?
