Makes you wonder sometimes...

[WhiteSoxClone]

How am I being deceptive? I'm being very direct. It's just not a philosophy you agree with. Nice word though- sophistry. It doesn't apply, but you get points for using a cool word!

You think you're making a smart argument, when its clear to everyone else that you're not. Congratulations. Accepting pay for something is in no way an indication that you wouldn't do it for less or for free. Dispute that all you want by saying that "its different" when we're talking about war or military service, but it isn't. Him taking a pay check in no way establishes he wouldn't otherwise serve.

You'll never concede this point, of course. But its obvious to any reasonable person.

 

[BrianNole09]

I have no idea how they do it. For the ones that cannot, it is understandable. It is more surprising that there are some that make it through unscathed.

My friend's Dad was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam and loved it. He kept signing up so he could go back. He said that "war is the best time of a man's life."

He was a bit of a psycho, though.

 

[Hawkeyenuts66]

No, actually I'm NOT an "all about me" person at all. I'm much more empathetic with others than you're obviously able to understand. For one thing, I'm not about to take the lives of people I don't know, who have done me no harm, all because some politician tells me they're a threat to "us."

Why would he not cash them? He said he'd do it for free... like it was some moral obligation. I don't take money from people if I am doing something out of obligation, because doing it is the reward. I'm just holding him to his claim.

I said I would have served for free, not that I did. I also stated that I didn't enlist for the money. I actually had a good job that I left when I enlisted. I felt obligated to my family and our history of serving our country. I'm just glad that I have the moral flexibility to do what I needed to and not be adversely affected by it.

As I said in an earlier post, you are unable to understand why people would enlist. Maybe it does have something the do with your childhood, I don't know.

 

[DavenportHawk8]

My cousin's husband served in Vietnam...was a Ranger. Great guy and family man but very quiet and reserved. I once asked him how many of the enemy had killed and he turned and walked away... never asked again.

I have a cousin who served in Iraq and he does not talk about it. He is a normal human being and has kids and goes about his daily life. Anytime anyone asks him about it, he just shuts down.

He is seeking help, but damn the last time I saw him we were able to share a few beers and talk like the old days. Then one of his high school buddies asked him about it and bam he was done. Walked out of the garage and went inside.

 

[strummingram]

Really - empathetic? You would only agree to help others if you were harmed personally though? I never learned that definition of empathy i guess. God forbid someone wants to sign up to possibly help make the lives of others better.

No need to talk about the last few wars - everyone knows that is where your argument is going.

No, I would only strike at others if I were harmed first. And, I wouldn't be carrying my ass across the planet. If they came over the Appalachians? Yeah, I'd DEFEND my home. America hasn't defended it's home since 1812.

 

[pablow]

I'm not a Southern Rock fan myself. But, my mom is/was. And things like that, concert footage from 1974, hearing a song from BOA, or Marshall Tucker or Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Allman Brothers reminds me of my mom being young and us going to the family pool on post while my dad was in the field. It reminds me of the drive from Ft Hood to Ft Sill for a PCS move. It reminds me of watching the news coverage of the tail end of Vietnam as a kid and not understanding why my mom was crying since my dad was just at a meeting and going to be home in a while.

As bean alluded to, that f-in war took a toll on the men and women who were there, my dad will barely talk about things. But it also took a toll on the wives and kids who missed them and couldn't understand the changes when they came home. My dad paid a price, so did my mom and I. Keep in mind, the part in We Were Soldiers where the cab drivers were delivering the telegrams to the families of troops killed? My dad was in C Co 2/7 CAV prior to the deployment, then back filled in his old unit after the Ia Drang Valley. My mom was at Ft Benning during that time, had friends that got those telegrams and even got a knock on the door from a cabbie...all he wanted was directions to another house.

It's no different than the soldiers and their families now. The soldiers bring it home, their families can't understand but try and then get frustrated when they can't fix things.

That music isn't my favorite, I actually like what my dad listened to during those times way better. But the memories I have of my mom are brought to life by things like that and are far different than and more intense than the memories I have listening to the Stones, the Who, the Animals, The Stooges or other bands my dad listened to. And many of those memories are tied to things my mom brought with her from that war.

I understand. Don't mind me.

 

[WhiteSoxClone]

No, I would only strike at others if I were harmed first.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about our recent wars. But you're making some statements in this thread that seem a bit too much of a stretch. So if a man was beating a child in front of you, you'd exert no physical force to stop him? And you think that makes you MORE empathetic than others who would?

I agree that very few wars have been fought where one side can claim moral superiority. But to say its never been the case is a step too far.

 

[OllieVee]

My friend's Dad was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam and loved it. He kept signing up so he could go back. He said that "war is the best time of a man's life."

He was a bit of a psycho, though.

Only a total asshole would refer to someone who served as a "psycho".

 

[BrianNole09]

Only a total asshole would refer to someone who served as a "psycho".

Wrong.

Every profession has it's share of psychos.

 

[soybean]

Going "psycho" isn't always a bad thing - its a way to deal with the present. Everybody remembers being in the middle of a football game and watching an otherwise mild mannered skinny kid go absolutely nuts and into hyper drive making plays he could not do in practice. After the game was over - back to normal. Combat is like that for some too. Never under estimate another grown man - you never know what he is capable of.

 

[Brian_Fantana]

No, I would only strike at others if I were harmed first. And, I wouldn't be carrying my ass across the planet. If they came over the Appalachians? Yeah, I'd DEFEND my home. America hasn't defended it's home since 1812.

Well I hope no civilian is ever in trouble on the street and you are the only bystander. Please tell me you have no children.

 

[86Hawkeye]

how soldiers in war can kill so many and watch horrific acts then come back home and lead perfectly normal lives. How can they turn that on then off again?

Training, experience and a healthy transition back to civilian life.

Its obviously not easy.

 

[BrianNole09]

I listened to my own drunk father relive the horrors of Vietnam my entire childhood, over and over and over. It haunted him his entire life. And, then Agent Orange killed him at 53. I knew, at a very young age, that I would NEVER be drafted or enlist to go and kill strangers in their homeland so some politician and his corporate sponsor can become more wealthy.

What about ISIS?

Do you believe we should be waging war against them? Is it just?

 

[BrianNole09]

Dead serious!

Not all of those buried at Arlington were killed in combat.

My Grandparents are buried at Arlington and my Grandfather lived to 88 and my Grandmother to 102.

 

[BrianNole09]

Yep. I probably would have liked your Mom.

Soy,

When you were in Vietnam and now, did/do you believe that the war was a mistake? Should the U.S. have never gone in?

 

[strummingram]

Well I hope no civilian is ever in trouble on the street and you are the only bystander. Please tell me you have no children.

If I see someone in my line of sight who is obviously being assaulted, then my instincts take over and I help them... without even thinking.

That's a helluva lot different than being carted off to a desert or jungle 10,000 miles away from MY home to shoot-up peoples' homeland because some politician said they were a threat to "us."

 

[strummingram]

Not all of those buried at Arlington were killed in combat.

My Grandparents are buried at Arlington and my Grandfather lived to 88 and my Grandmother to 102.

I used the photo as a metaphor to accentuate the comment about being "dead" serious.

 

[herkyhawk00]

how soldiers in war can kill so many and watch horrific acts then come back home and lead perfectly normal lives. How can they turn that on then off again?

Ummmm, have you seen the suicide rates of veterans?

 

[strummingram]

What about ISIS?

Do you believe we should be waging war against them? Is it just?

We who?

The American foreign policy of the last 70 years had a huge roll in creating every bit of the vengeful blowback and terrorism from all the Middle Eastern sources. Politicians and corporate owners of this country don't invest in "fighting operations" with a profit incentive. Now, they created a monster that won't go back in the cage. Although, our government and its owners refuse to leave them alone.

The Viet Cong didn't come over here after the USA finally hauled its ass out of the entire region. You didn't have Muslim terrorists over here in the 19th Century, or even 80% of the 20th Century. You keep poking the bear, and he's going to finally come at you.

 

[BrianNole09]

Ummmm, have you seen the suicide rates of veterans?

The high suicide rate amongst veterans is actually somewhat of a myth.

The suicide rate for the military is actually not all that much higher than the general population. Each day, 85 people in America commit suicide; of those, 22 are veterans. The percentage of the American population that are veterans is 25%.

80% of the military is male and males have a much higher suicide rate than females do. So, naturally, the rate for suicide would be higher amongst any 80% male group than a group that is mostly female, which is what the American public is.

Some other interesting facts:

The majority of the suicides of veterans were committed by veterans that were over 50 years of age; something like 70% of these veterans were at least 50 years old.

Most of the veterans that committed suicide since 2001 never saw combat; I believe 75% of them did not. So, most suicides over the past 13 years were not related to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[BrianNole09]

We who?

The American foreign policy of the last 70 years had a huge roll in creating every bit of the vengeful blowback and terrorism from all the Middle Eastern sources. Politicians and corporate owners of this country don't invest in "fighting operations" with a profit incentive. Now, they created a monster that won't go back in the cage. Although, our government and its owners refuse to leave them alone.

The Viet Cong didn't come over here after the USA finally hauled its ass out of the entire region. You didn't have Muslim terrorists over here in the 19th Century, or even 80% of the 20th Century. You keep poking the bear, and he's going to finally come at you.

"We" being the United States.

After ISIS beheaded two American journalists on video, do you think the United States should have responded militarily? Why or why not?

 

[strummingram]

"We" being the United States.

After ISIS beheaded two American journalists on video, do you think the United States should have responded militarily? Why or why not?

I think trying to remedy violence with violence is a mistake.

Ask Jesus what He would tell "we" to do.

 

[BrianNole09]

I think trying to remedy violence with violence is a mistake.

Ask Jesus what He would tell "we" to do.

What if killing "Jihadi John", (the ISIS guy that beheaded the two journalists) would prevent other innocent people from getting killed?

Do you think that would not be justified?

 

[strummingram]

What if killing "Jihadi John", (the ISIS guy that beheaded the two journalists) would prevent other innocent people from getting killed?

Do you think that would not be justified?

Do YOU think it would be justified?

You kill them and then someone who holds them dear to their heart feels justified to murder you. And, round and round it goes.

Remember, Jesus is standing beside you. Whatever you do to another, you do it to yourself. You've been promoting your faith recently. Here's where it counts. Time to hang from the cross and say "Forgive them. They know not what they do."

 

[BrianNole09]

Do YOU think it would be justified?

You kill them and then someone who holds them dear to their heart feels justified to murder you. And, round and round it goes.

Remember, Jesus is standing beside you. Whatever you do to another, you do it to yourself. You've been promoting your faith recently. Here's where it counts. Time to hang from the cross and say "Forgive them. They know not what they do."

Of course, I think it would be justified.

Violence used to save innocent people is just. I believe Jesus would agree.

Your pacifism in every situation is ridiculous, IMO.

 

[strummingram]

Of course, I think it would be justified.

Violence used to save innocent people is just. I believe Jesus would agree.

Your pacifism in every situation is ridiculous, IMO.

I believe Christ would repeat his admonition to Peter: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." Matthew 26:52

He said this to Peter when Peter chose to resort to violence to save an innocent person- Jesus himself.

Those who commit violent acts must expect to suffer violence themselves.

It's very simple.

 

[BrianNole09]

I believe Christ would repeat his admonition to Peter: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." Matthew 26:52

He said this to Peter when Peter chose to resort to violence to save an innocent person- Jesus himself.

Those who commit violent acts must expect to suffer violence themselves.

It's very simple.

Not, it's not very simple. You're not a theologian...don't try to play one on HROT.

That specific situation was because Jesus knew that his mission was to be crucified. He was certainly not a pacifist.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-pacifist.html

The Catholic Church based a "just war" theory on the Bible and Jesus. It states that war is justified in self defense or to protect innocents. If you wouldn't kill a murderer to protect an innocent, then you'd be just as guilty as the murderer.

 

[hawkssox1]

Why do I always think you are an idiot?

Was sure of that some time ago.

 

[strummingram]

Not, it's not very simple. You're not a theologian...don't try to play one on HROT.

That specific situation was because Jesus knew that his mission was to be crucified. He was certainly not a pacifist.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-pacifist.html

The Catholic Church based a "just war" theory on the Bible and Jesus. It states that war is justified in self defense or to protect innocents. If you wouldn't kill a murderer to protect an innocent, then you'd be just as guilty as the murderer.

I am "the time for peace."

If I'm in a situation where instincts take over, then I'm not.

But, I'm not going to advocate violence to remedy violence.

 

[swagsurfer02]

Of course, I think it would be justified.

Violence used to save innocent people is just. I believe Jesus would agree.

Your pacifism in every situation is ridiculous, IMO.

I believe Christ would repeat his admonition to Peter: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." Matthew 26:52


He said this to Peter when Peter chose to resort to violence to save an innocent person- Jesus himself.

Those who commit violent acts must expect to suffer violence themselves.

It's very simple.

Even God told the Israelites to go to war sometimes.

 

[soybean]

Soy,

When you were in Vietnam and now, did/do you believe that the war was a mistake? Should the U.S. have never gone in?

I was skeptical before I was drafted/volunteered. Grew increasingly opposed during my war. Was totally against it immediately after I was seperated. Think it was a total fiasco today.

 

[strummingram]

Even God told the Israelites to go to war sometimes.

Yay for "God."

God tells me to advocate for Peace! If only I could find an ancient book to write that down.

 

[ThorneStockton]

I was skeptical before I was drafted/volunteered. Grew increasingly opposed during my war. Was totally against it immediately after I was seperated. Think it was a total fiasco today.

Ever consider returning to visit? On my way there I encountered a group of veterans traveling there together, not sure what exactly the purpose of their trip was, but seemed to be in good spirits.

 

[swagsurfer02]

Even God told the Israelites to go to war sometimes.

Yay for "God."

God tells me to advocate for Peace! If only I could find an ancient book to write that down.

Shouldn't involve Jesus into your argument if you can't include his father savvy?

 

[strummingram]

Shouldn't involve Jesus into your argument if you can't include his father savvy?

Well, I don't see God as having a penis and having fathered a child. All of us are members of the same body (of God).

Whatever you do to another, you do it to yourself.

 

[swagsurfer02]

Shouldn't involve Jesus into your argument if you can't include his father savvy?

Well, I don't see God as having a penis and having fathered a child. All of us are members of the same body (of God).

Whatever you do to another, you do it to yourself.

You know my dad was in Nam for 18 months '68 to '70. He was a gunner on the Huey's. Stuck m16 rounds in his ears so he wouldn't go def (didn't help). He stayed in and put 21 years up for Uncle Sam. He didn't want his kids to get in, some of us did anyway.

He was drafted, it was hell. He's a Christian and believes that there is evil in this world and sometimes the strong have to defend those who can't defend themselves. That's not to say the US hasn't done some horrendous things and that we are always on the right side of the cause. Just a story about my daddy.

 

[Hawkeyenuts66]

My friend's Dad was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam and loved it. He kept signing up so he could go back. He said that "war is the best time of a man's life."

He was a bit of a psycho, though.

Actually I think psycho is rather harsh. If you look at his service as a pilot, was he saving troops? Transporting troops or providing cover fire? If you look at it from his view, maybe he was helping in saving the lives of his brothers in arms. Maybe he took great pride in the service he provided and wanted to continue to help and that's why he kept going back. Just taking a guess as I don't know the man.

I can tell you I have great admiration for those men, if it wasn't for the "dust off" pilots my uncle would have never made it home.

 

[strummingram]

You know my dad was in Nam for 18 months '68 to '70. He was a gunner on the Huey's. Stuck m16 rounds in his ears so he wouldn't go def (didn't help). He stayed in and put 21 years up for Uncle Sam. He didn't want his kids to get in, some of us did anyway.

He was drafted, it was hell. He's a Christian and believes that there is evil in this world and sometimes the strong have to defend those who can't defend themselves. That's not to say the US hasn't done some horrendous things and that we are always on the right side of the cause. Just a story about my daddy.

Okay...

Whatever you do to another person, you do it to yourself.

You treat others as you wish to be treated.

I find the military to be just a very complex, highly-trained muscle work option for the people who own this place.

General Smedley Butler's Book "War Is A Racket"

 

[BrianNole09]

Actually I think psycho is rather harsh. If you look at his service as a pilot, was he saving troops? Transporting troops or providing cover fire? If you look at it from his view, maybe he was helping in saving the lives of his brothers in arms. Maybe he took great pride in the service he provided and wanted to continue to help and that's why he kept going back. Just taking a guess as I don't know the man.

I can tell you I have great admiration for those men, if it wasn't for the "dust off" pilots my uncle would have never made it home.

He was shooting people in a free fire zone. Some may not have been V.C. or NVA.

I call him a psycho based on his parenting skills mostly, which weren't good, not his military service.

 

[BrianNole09]

Okay...

Whatever you do to another person, you do it to yourself.

You treat others as you wish to be treated.

I find the military to be just a very complex, highly-trained muscle work option for the people who own this place.

General Smedley Butler's Book "War Is A Racket"

So, you're against violence in every situation? Really?

Would you shoot a serial killer to save a child's life or would you let the child be killed since you are totally against all forms of violence?