Marinelli-Hall tonight

[Stanley75]

Ok. But you surely realize how ridiculous your statement was, right?

You and "The Catman" are taking this loss really hard.

So we should like the loss? Now that would be ridiculous. When talking about future recruits and how they will do it's all hypothetical and fictional. Another thing to remember is everyone has an opinion and just because you don't agree doesn't make it right or wrong . It's an opinion something to talk about that's it. Near as I can tell we are on the same side here.

 

[Azchief32]

So we should like the loss? Now that would be ridiculous. When talking about future recruits and how they will do it's all hypothetical and fictional. Another thing to remember is everyone has an opinion and just because you don't agree doesn't make it right or wrong . It's an opinion something to talk about that's it. Near as I can tell we are on the same side here.

Yea...actually some opinions are wrong. For example, Joe Stalin was a good guy, just misunderstood. FDR was right to imprison Japanese here in the U.S. I only mention these because many people agreed with both at the time.

Not that it applies to an all star, exhibition match or anything...feel free to be upset because Mark Hall, who has some of the best training, competition, and experience a young wrestler could have put a beating on our guy, who's training has largely been by one very good coach but in folk style. Marinelli is a stud, but nobody is on Hall's level right now. BTW, Anthony Valemcia dominated a college guy one summer in freestyle. That college guy? IMAR, who went on that season to go undefeated and win a national title. That fall, Hall put a whoopin on Valencia.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Also remember that this match was 2-1 going into the 3rd period. The first two periods were obviously very competitive. We all know that some matches get blown open late, but the final score doesn't necessarily indicate the gap between the wrestlers. When that gap is wide, the better wrestler typically scores early and often. You don't typically see a far superior wrestler take a 2-1 lead into the 3rd. I doubt many serious people would expect the same disparity in score if these two wrestled again.

More importantly, though, we're a long ways from hitting the starting lineup at the D1 level, even if Alex starts his true freshman year. A lot can and will change between now and then. . . And these two aren't likely to end up at the same weight, anyway.

Alex will be a beast for the Hawks, and I applaud him for taking on this challenge. He could have avoided it very easily.

 

[blak&gold]

Also remember that this match was 2-1 going into the 3rd period. The first two periods were obviously very competitive. We all know that some matches get blown open late, but the final score doesn't necessarily indicate the gap between the wrestlers. When that gap is wide, the better wrestler typically scores early and often. You don't typically see a far superior wrestler take a 2-1 lead into the 3rd. I doubt many serious people would expect the same disparity in score if these two wrestled again.

More importantly, though, we're a long ways from hitting the starting lineup at the D1 level, even if Alex starts his true freshman year. A lot can and will change between now and then. . . And these two aren't likely to end up at the same weight, anyway.

Alex will be a beast for the Hawks, and I applaud him for taking on this challenge. He could have avoided it very easily.

True. Hall did not take down Alex down at will, but definitely seemed to have an advantage on the feet. Alex looked like he maintains great positioning and has good attacks.

Where Hall seems to have a huge advantage is his ability to put high level competition in danger on the mat. Hall seems very creative from the top position which should serve him very well with the changes to scoring college.

 

[matter7172]

I saw it this way. AM showed the ability to get in deep, but couldn't finish. Showed nothing on top and was dominated when on the bottom. I don't know how anyone can be totally confident about his prospects in college. There are plenty of four-time state champs that have struggled at the NCAA D1 level with that set of tools. So for me, the jury is still out. I thought Hall showed good, maybe great, secondary defense but wished he would have been more effective shooting on this feet and that I didn't get to see his secondary defense quite as much. On top, Hall was scary. And I wasn't thrilled with the way he took the last 30 seconds or so off.

 

[hawknut]

Yea...actually some opinions are wrong. For example, Joe Stalin was a good guy, just misunderstood. FDR was right to imprison Japanese here in the U.S. I only mention these because many people agreed with both at the time.

Not that it applies to an all star, exhibition match or anything...feel free to be upset because Mark Hall, who has some of the best training, competition, and experience a young wrestler could have put a beating on our guy, who's training has largely been by one very good coach but in folk style. Marinelli is a stud, but nobody is on Hall's level right now. BTW, Anthony Valemcia dominated a college guy one summer in freestyle. That college guy? IMAR, who went on that season to go undefeated and win a national title. That fall, Hall put a whoopin on Valencia.

Using a Josef Stalin analogy to try and convince us not to over interpret a big loss by Marinelli? You have reached new lows. Marinelli is great, he won't AA next year. That doesn't mean he won't be great. He got beat by a stud. That doesn't mean he won't be great. But, comparing his loss to people liking Josef Stalin? You are flat out crazy. Edit: Somehow I quoted the wrong quote.

 

[Azchief32]

Using a Josef Stalin analogy to try and convince us not to over interpret a big loss by Marinelli? You have reached new lows. Marinelli is great, he won't AA next year. That doesn't mean he won't be great. He got beat by a stud. That doesn't mean he won't be great. But, comparing his loss to people liking Josef Stalin? You are flat out crazy. Edit: Somehow I quoted the wrong quote.

I used that analogy to show there are certain, hard truths to refute the generalized statement: "Another thing to remember is everyone has an opinion and just because you don't agree doesn't make it rightorwrong"...and they are references that most people know. Opinions are frequently wrong or not valid...True then as it is now.

However, I even stated, "Not that it applies an all star match...feel free to" Etc. Reading comprehension is your friend.

 

[MVPFAN]

Using a Josef Stalin analogy to try and convince us not to over interpret a big loss by Marinelli? You have reached new lows. Marinelli is great, he won't AA next year. That doesn't mean he won't be great. He got beat by a stud. That doesn't mean he won't be great. But, comparing his loss to people liking Josef Stalin? You are flat out crazy. Edit: Somehow I quoted the wrong quote.

At this point it is way too premature to say if he would AA next year either way.

 

[manmythlegend1]

Using a Josef Stalin analogy to try and convince us not to over interpret a big loss by Marinelli? You have reached new lows. Marinelli is great, he won't AA next year. That doesn't mean he won't be great. He got beat by a stud. That doesn't mean he won't be great. But, comparing his loss to people liking Josef Stalin? You are flat out crazy. Edit: Somehow I quoted the wrong quote.

I know If Penn State was getting Marinelli I would think he is an AA as a true freshman. Kid is Legit, Problem is Hall is a Freak of Nature at this stage of his development and the match got out of hand. That being said, I would not want to start him as a true freshman and find out because a year in the room would make him Surely an AA/Title contender.

I would have loved to see a Redshirt freshman Retherford take on Senior Steiber. But in the end you do what you have to do for your team, starting Retherford as a true freshman guaranteed another Championship. You guys are going to have some great seniors next season (Gillman, Clark, Brooks, Meyer) Starting Marinelli and taking your shot might make sense for Brands.....I Think he would be AA ready by the end of the season.

 

[SPOONER]

So we should like the loss? Now that would be ridiculous. When talking about future recruits and how they will do it's all hypothetical and fictional. Another thing to remember is everyone has an opinion and just because you don't agree doesn't make it right or wrong . It's an opinion something to talk about that's it. Near as I can tell we are on the same side here.

I assumed your ridiculous reaction to the match was emotional. If in your mind it was a logical reaction...yikes. It's worse than I thought.

 

[SPOONER]

I saw it this way. AM showed the ability to get in deep, but couldn't finish. Showed nothing on top and was dominated when on the bottom. I don't know how anyone can be totally confident about his prospects in college. There are plenty of four-time state champs that have struggled at the NCAA D1 level with that set of tools. So for me, the jury is still out. I thought Hall showed good, maybe great, secondary defense but wished he would have been more effective shooting on this feet and that I didn't get to see his secondary defense quite as much. On top, Hall was scary. And I wasn't thrilled with the way he took the last 30 seconds or so off.

He's accomplishments are greater than just being a "four time state champ." There aren't too many prospects with his overall pedigree who "struggle" in college. Those who do generally have issues between the ears which in turn affects their performance on the mat.

This is not to say I think he would be a shoo in to AA next year. But he remains a hell of a prospect. Mark Hall happens to be in a zone that HS wrestlers do not generally inhabit.

 

[Stanley75]

I assumed your ridiculous reaction to the match was emotional. If in your mind it was a logical reaction...yikes. It's worse than I thought.

You funny.

 

[Stanley75]

He's accomplishments are greater than just being a "four time state champ." There aren't too many prospects with his overall pedigree who "struggle" in college. Those who do generally have issues between the ears which in turn affects their performance on the mat.

This is not to say I think he would be a shoo in to AA next year. But he remains a hell of a prospect. Mark Hall happens to be in a zone that HS wrestlers do not generally inhabit.

Great post. I'll go along with that post. Logical you can be at times (when you want to)! If we could just keep you from being so obstinate. You might try not cleaning the toilets before you post. Just a helpful hint. You may not like me but I like you.

 

[Ohio2NC]

I don't think fans of either wrestler should read too far into the final result. Hall is without a doubt a phenom and Alex is still one of the top HS wrestlers in the nation this year. A post-season exhibition never determined a NCAA champion.

Even with Isaiah White, pretty sure tOSU would still take Alex back in a heartbeat.

 

[tuggerjug]

AM has similar profile as Guilibon - both 4 timers in tough states - both elite recruits. Guilibon took a redshirt year and didn't AA til his 3rd year (RS Soph Year). So I think its premature to put AM on the medal stand next year.

 

[matter7172]

He's accomplishments are greater than just being a "four time state champ." There aren't too many prospects with his overall pedigree who "struggle" in college. Those who do generally have issues between the ears which in turn affects their performance on the mat.

This is not to say I think he would be a shoo in to AA next year. But he remains a hell of a prospect. Mark Hall happens to be in a zone that HS wrestlers do not generally inhabit.

I admire your optimism. I'd be a lot less sanguine if my recruit couldn't finish shots and was put on their back three times in a period in a match that I watched.

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

I think the competition is worth considering here. It's been mentioned previously that Hall handled Jason Nolf last year, and Nolf is a legit NCAA title contender this year.

I like Alex's chances against most guys not named Mark Hall. That will be plenty good for Hawk fans, I'm sure.

 

[matter7172]

I think the competition is worth considering here. It's been mentioned previously that Hall handled Jason Nolf last year, and Nolf is a legit NCAA title contender this year.

I like Alex's chances against most guys not named Mark Hall. That will plenty good for Hawk fans, I'm sure.

I wonder if you'd be as confident about Alex if he were someone else's recruit?

 

[pablow]

I wonder if you'd be as confident about Alex if he were someone else's recruit?

 

[WWDMHawkeye]

Of course I would, considering his credentials. Moreover, I don't particularly understand or appreciate your apparent obsession with tearing down this young man.

 

[Azchief32]

I wonder if you'd be as confident about Alex if he were someone else's recruit?

That's the point isn't it? IMAR sure as sh*t didn't look like a world beater his freshman year and got handled in freestyle by a high school kid that summer a few times. Betcha Illinois fans were down on IMAR that summer.

Mark Hall is a super talent but he didn't get that way by accident. He doubles Marinelli in terms of mat time and has traveled all over the world doing his thing including spending his summers at OTC. I have no problem with Alex...now he knows the difference between him and a truly elite guy like Hall or Lee who will hit the ground running.

 

[matter7172]

Of course I would, considering his credentials. Moreover, I don't particularly understand or appreciate your apparent obsession with tearing down this young man.

Geez. How did I tear him down? Settle down, you're getting way too oversensitive, I think. "I don't understand or appreciate your apparent obsession with building up this young man." Sound a little over-reactive?

 

[Cold Smoke]

That's the point isn't it? IMAR sure as sh*t didn't look like a world beater his freshman year and got handled in freestyle by a high school kid that summer a few times. Betcha Illinois fans were down on IMAR that summer.

Mark Hall is a super talent but he didn't get that way by accident. He doubles Marinelli in terms of mat time and has traveled all over the world doing his thing including spending his summers at OTC. I have no problem with Alex...now he knows the difference between him and a truly elite guy like Hall or Lee who will hit the ground running.

Hall interview post AM match up on FLO. Very respectful of AM's will to win. That quality always the most important thing for a young wrestler.

 

[Stanley75]

I think the competition is worth considering here. It's been mentioned previously that Hall handled Jason Nolf last year, and Nolf is a legit NCAA title contender this year.

I like Alex's chances against most guys not named Mark Hall. That will plenty good for Hawk fans, I'm sure.

Nolf was on Halls legs the whole match. Nickel ate Hall for lunch in the matches I watched. Worst part all three of those hammers are at PSU.

 

[pablow]

Geez. How did I tear him down? Settle down, you're getting way too oversensitive, I think. "I don't understand or appreciate your apparent obsession with building up this young man." Sound a little over-reactive?

IMO your posts on AM have be a fair bit on the Debbie Downer side.

 

[matter7172]

IMO your posts on AM have be a fair bit on the Debbie Downer side.

Measured with an overly optimistic yardstick, yes. I'm just saying I've seen reasons for questioning a tag of "can't miss" on him, which most people seem to want to ignore or attribute to him wrestling superman. If you look at "disappointments" in the college wrestling scene over the years, a lot of them share some characteristics - a tendency to rely on overpowering their opponents through sheer strength in high school, trouble with the top and bottom positions, inability to finish shots at the collegiate level. I said, the jury is still out for me in projecting AM at college. I'm not convinced, after watching him wrestle Hall in a match where he exhibit three of those characteristics, that he is definitely AA level - especially next year. To be fair, it's hard to figure out how good you are on top when you are only there for a couple of seconds.

 

[SPOONER]

I admire your optimism. I'd be a lot less sanguine if my recruit couldn't finish shots and was put on their back three times in a period in a match that I watched.

I would be concerned about it if his opponent were a run of the mill state champ from Iowa and he wasn't wrestling up a weight. Going up to wrestle Mark Hall? Trailing 2-1 going into the 3rd? In an all star match? Not in the least.

Dammit...just realized you apparently signed up specifically to troll us on AM. You got me.

 

[MVPFAN]

AM has similar profile as Guilibon - both 4 timers in tough states - both elite recruits. Guilibon took a redshirt year and didn't AA til his 3rd year (RS Soph Year). So I think its premature to put AM on the medal stand next year.

The both being 4 timers comparison is nice but that and what Gulibon has been able to accomplish on what time schedule have zero to do with what AM may or may not do. TB is not going to send him out there if he is marginal AA/rd 12 nor should he. If he looks to be top 4 quality and that might get a title then I think you have to go for it.

 

[matter7172]

I would be concerned about it if his opponent were a run of the mill state champ from Iowa and he wasn't wrestling up a weight. Going up to wrestle Mark Hall? Trailing 2-1 going into the 3rd? In an all star match? Not in the least.

Dammit...just realized you apparently signed up specifically to troll us on AM. You got me.

I don't think there is anything trollish about what I posted. Did I say something inflammatory, off-topic or extraneous? Or did I disrupt the conversation? None of those. Did I disagree respectfully, yes.

 

[Greco Gilligan]

I don't think there is anything trollish about what I posted. Did I say something inflammatory, off-topic or extraneous? Or did I disrupt the conversation? None of those. Did I disagree respectfully, yes.

They get a little grumpy when you bring them out of fantasy land back to realsville.

 

[MVPFAN]

Measured with an overly optimistic yardstick, yes. I'm just saying I've seen reasons for questioning a tag of "can't miss" on him, which most people seem to want to ignore or attribute to him wrestling superman. If you look at "disappointments" in the college wrestling scene over the years, a lot of them share some characteristics - a tendency to rely on overpowering their opponents through sheer strength in high school, trouble with the top and bottom positions, inability to finish shots at the collegiate level. I said, the jury is still out for me in projecting AM at college. I'm not convinced, after watching him wrestle Hall in a match where he exhibit three of those characteristics, that he is definitely AA level - especially next year. To be fair, it's hard to figure out how good you are on top when you are only there for a couple of seconds.

One exhibition match vs a guy that is likely right there with the cream of the crop in the NCAA 174 class is not in any way sufficient to label AM as having trouble finishing shots, poor on top and bottom and relying on overpowering people. That is a horse crap troll job and you know it. Just being less aggressive would have tightened that up a lot. He opened up and went for it though..

 

[MVPFAN]

Speaking of trolls, why is Gilligan not banished back to the island yet?

 

[Lattner]

Measured with an overly optimistic yardstick, yes. I'm just saying I've seen reasons for questioning a tag of "can't miss" on him, which most people seem to want to ignore or attribute to him wrestling superman. If you look at "disappointments" in the college wrestling scene over the years, a lot of them share some characteristics - a tendency to rely on overpowering their opponents through sheer strength in high school, trouble with the top and bottom positions, inability to finish shots at the collegiate level. I said, the jury is still out for me in projecting AM at college. I'm not convinced, after watching him wrestle Hall in a match where he exhibit three of those characteristics, that he is definitely AA level - especially next year. To be fair, it's hard to figure out how good you are on top when you are only there for a couple of seconds.

Great stuff Andy!

 

[Lattner]

I don't think there is anything trollish about what I posted. Did I say something inflammatory, off-topic or extraneous? Or did I disrupt the conversation? None of those. Did I disagree respectfully, yes.

I like you better as nlttanychris.

 

[Azchief32]

They get a little grumpy when you bring them out of fantasy land back to realsville.

Greco or DHM? Anyways, must be hard to type with the Skipper's balls on your chin

 

[Pennstate1985]

matter7172 is a two time NCAA champion at 167. He's walked the walk.

 

[LaxHawk174]

matter7172 is a two time NCAA champion at 167. He's walked the walk.

Had no idea, just looked up the '71 and '72 NCAA brackets and there was Andy Matter of Penn State 2x NCAA champ. While he was an excellent wrestler I just don't think he is correct on this certain topic.

Mark Hall also major decisioned Anthony Valencia 10-2 the last time they competed, and many would've picked Valencia to AA as a true frosh as well. Obviously they are not identical comparisons as Valencia is far more accomplished on the freestyle scene than Marinelli (don't think Marinelli has ever done freestyle, like most Graham boys), but using a big loss to Mark Hall of all people as a barometer for future success is not a good measuring stick IMO, as he is one of the greatest High School wrestlers I have ever seen. Kind of like Spencer Lee, his state finals opponent got teched 15-0 but he is an incredibly talented wrestler in his own right, he beat Alex Thomsen at S32 and was 50-0 going into the state finals bonusing his way there. Using super talents as a barometer is not the best measuring stick as many have pointed out here. Marinelli has dominated everyone he's wrestled the past 18 months apart from Mark Hall and he's done it on his feet which is where most D1 Studs make their paper. (Top & Bottom seems to be where most freshman have weakness, but I think he will be just fine getting out against pretty much anyone not named Daniel Lewis, I.Jordan, and maybe Rohskopf who have all made a name being hammers on top).

But time will certainly tell, I'm excited for the first half of Marinelli's season next year in the opens prior to midlands and Midlands. Hopefully he can face some top 10 guys and ranked opponents somewhere. I am confident Tom & Terry will make the correct decision. If they feel he can make an immediate impact (like I do) I'm guessing they put him out there to get as many points as possible with next years loaded SR class.

 

[matter7172]

I don't want to get sued. I am not Andy Matter. I did meet him at the Nittany Lion Inn in 1999. He was just my favorite wrestler when I first started wrestling. And he was a much better wrestler than I.

 

[Pennstate1985]

Lax, even though I agree with matter7172 that his points are valid, I also tend to think it too soon to make judgment on Alex based on one match. I believe the main point is that Alex MAY need room time next year to work on those issues matter7172 brought up, because they have tripped many a state champion. I should also say that I am normally inclined to want my freshmen to RS, so I may be a little biased there.

Overall though, I think you guys have a good one in Alex and he will no doubt see the podium in his career.

 

[Pennstate1985]

sorry matter7172. I thought for sure you were Andy.