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MIT study trashes the COVID 6-foot rule....

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HR King
Apr 23, 2002
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The risk of being exposed to Covid-19 indoors is as great at 60 feet as it is at 6 feet — even when wearing a mask, according to a new study by Massachusetts Institute of Technology researchers who challenge social distancing guidelines adopted across the world.

MIT professors Martin Z. Bazant, who teaches chemical engineering and applied mathematics, and John W.M. Bush, who teaches applied mathematics, developed a method of calculating exposure risk to Covid-19 in an indoor setting that factors in a variety of issues that could affect transmission, including the amount of time spent inside, air filtration and circulation, immunization, variant strains, mask use, and even respiratory activity such as breathing, eating, speaking or singing.

Bazant and Bush question long-held Covid-19 guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization in a peer-reviewed study published earlier this week in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science of the United States of America.

“We argue there really isn’t much of a benefit to the 6-foot rule, especially when people are wearing masks,” Bazant said in an interview. “It really has no physical basis because the air a person is breathing while wearing a mask tends to rise and comes down elsewhere in the room so you’re more exposed to the average background than you are to a person at a distance.”

The important variable the CDC and the WHO have overlooked is the amount of time spent indoors, Bazant said. The longer someone is inside with an infected person, the greater the chance of transmission, he said.

Opening windows or installing new fans to keep the air moving could also be just as effective or more effective than spending large amounts of money on a new filtration system, he said.

Bazant also says that guidelines enforcing indoor occupancy caps are flawed. He said 20 people gathered inside for 1 minute is probably fine, but not over the course of several hours, he said.

“What our analysis continues to show is that many spaces that have been shut down in fact don’t need to be. Often times the space is large enough, the ventilation is good enough, the amount of time people spend together is such that those spaces can be safely operated even at full capacity and the scientific support for reduced capacity in those spaces is really not very good,” Bazant said. “I think if you run the numbers, even right now for many types of spaces you’d find that there is not a need for occupancy restrictions.”

Six-feet social distancing rules that inadvertently result in closed businesses and schools are “just not reasonable,” according to Bazant.

“This emphasis on distancing has been really misplaced from the very beginning. The CDC or WHO have never really provided justification for it, they’ve just said this is what you must do and the only justification I’m aware of, is based on studies of coughs and sneezes, where they look at the largest particles that might sediment onto the floor and even then it’s very approximate, you can certainly have longer or shorter range, large droplets,” Bazant said.

“The distancing isn’t helping you that much and it’s also giving you a false sense of security because you’re as safe at 6 feet as you are at 60 feet if you’re indoors. Everyone in that space is at roughly the same risk, actually,” he noted.

Pathogen-laced droplets travel through the air indoors when people talk, breathe or eat. It is now known that airborne transmission plays a huge role in the spread of Covid-19, compared with the earlier months of the pandemic where hand-washing was considered the leading recommendation to avoid transmission.

 
Seems like some of you are giddy at the researchers trashing the 6 foot rule - I read it as there’s no stopping this virus when indoors. Which is not good news. Unless we like the author’s conclusion that it’s “probably ok” for 20 people to gather in a large well-ventilated building for 60 seconds. Maybe.
 
Should I take a bow after reading this? Been trying to preach the concept of treating the air since last June. Anyone interested, please pull up an old thread of mine in regards to “steps needed to curtail COVID 19.” Some of the verbiage comparing 6 ft to 60 ft apart sound eerily familiar. Not entirely the exact things said but more or less the same concept emphasized. Not feeling validated at all however, more like defeated.
I would argue however that unless it’s a properly worned N95, the masks are pretty
useless also. For every study that shows cotton masks can help, there’s another that says it’s absolute BS. Must be why CDC is doubling down literally by saying double the masks, esp since it hasn’t been studied yet( that I know of)
 
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That's great. We just need an MIT engineer to evaluate every business starting back in February 2020 and we can open things back up.
 
These guidelines have never seemed well thought-out to me. They seemed like something that would emerge from a committee meeting involving a bunch of bureaucrats:

Bureaucrat 1: Ok, lets throw out some ideas; what does everyone think?

Bureaucrat 2: How about wearing surgical masks?

Bureaucrat 3: Let's make everyone separate; my suggestion would be six feet.

Bureaucrat 4: Let's require everyone to wash their hands ... let's make it a law!

Bureaucrat 5, and the guy no one pays attention to because he is usually a little more of a critical thinker: We need to explore how air flows around a given room and make sure what we are suggesting does any good ... and to figure out how these germs live and die and move around; that sort of thing.

Bureaucrat 1, again: Ok, then are we decided? Everyone should wear surgical masks, wash their hands constantly, and stay six feet apart?

Bureaucrats 1, 2, 3 and 4: in unison "That's the ticket, let's do it!."

Bureaucrat #5: Pfffffffffffffffft!!
 
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The risk of being exposed to Covid-19 indoors is as great at 60 feet as it is at 6 feet — even when wearing a mask, according to a new study by Massachusetts Institute of Technology researchers who challenge social distancing guidelines adopted across the world.

MIT professors Martin Z. Bazant, who teaches chemical engineering and applied mathematics, and John W.M. Bush, who teaches applied mathematics, developed a method of calculating exposure risk to Covid-19 in an indoor setting that factors in a variety of issues that could affect transmission, including the amount of time spent inside, air filtration and circulation, immunization, variant strains, mask use, and even respiratory activity such as breathing, eating, speaking or singing.

Bazant and Bush question long-held Covid-19 guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization in a peer-reviewed study published earlier this week in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science of the United States of America.

“We argue there really isn’t much of a benefit to the 6-foot rule, especially when people are wearing masks,” Bazant said in an interview. “It really has no physical basis because the air a person is breathing while wearing a mask tends to rise and comes down elsewhere in the room so you’re more exposed to the average background than you are to a person at a distance.”

The important variable the CDC and the WHO have overlooked is the amount of time spent indoors, Bazant said. The longer someone is inside with an infected person, the greater the chance of transmission, he said.

Opening windows or installing new fans to keep the air moving could also be just as effective or more effective than spending large amounts of money on a new filtration system, he said.

Bazant also says that guidelines enforcing indoor occupancy caps are flawed. He said 20 people gathered inside for 1 minute is probably fine, but not over the course of several hours, he said.

“What our analysis continues to show is that many spaces that have been shut down in fact don’t need to be. Often times the space is large enough, the ventilation is good enough, the amount of time people spend together is such that those spaces can be safely operated even at full capacity and the scientific support for reduced capacity in those spaces is really not very good,” Bazant said. “I think if you run the numbers, even right now for many types of spaces you’d find that there is not a need for occupancy restrictions.”

Six-feet social distancing rules that inadvertently result in closed businesses and schools are “just not reasonable,” according to Bazant.

“This emphasis on distancing has been really misplaced from the very beginning. The CDC or WHO have never really provided justification for it, they’ve just said this is what you must do and the only justification I’m aware of, is based on studies of coughs and sneezes, where they look at the largest particles that might sediment onto the floor and even then it’s very approximate, you can certainly have longer or shorter range, large droplets,” Bazant said.

“The distancing isn’t helping you that much and it’s also giving you a false sense of security because you’re as safe at 6 feet as you are at 60 feet if you’re indoors. Everyone in that space is at roughly the same risk, actually,” he noted.

Pathogen-laced droplets travel through the air indoors when people talk, breathe or eat. It is now known that airborne transmission plays a huge role in the spread of Covid-19, compared with the earlier months of the pandemic where hand-washing was considered the leading recommendation to avoid transmission.


You should check the assumptions made for the study, because they are demonstrably incorrect, as shown in other real-world analyses of Covid spread.
 
I thought it was clear, although not particularly publicized, that 3 feet was the actual meaningful distance, and 6 feet was "doubled to be extra safe because we can't trust you." I thought it was admitted this was another "noble lie."

Which of course, then 6ft was used to close schools and keep them closed, as well as other businesses.

The premise of trying to manage public health policy through noble lies is one I'd hope would have been thoroughly discredited by this pandemic, but no signs of that.
 
File this under why bother, and don't get the vaccine, either. Then Trad can find a sympathetic study to show why vaccines aren't useful.
 
Whoopsy-daisy:

Their data indicate masks are VERY effective!!!!

The importance of adequate ventilation and mask use is made clear by our guideline. For normal occupancy and without masks, the safe time after an infected individual enters the classroom is 1.2 h for natural ventilation and 7.2 h with mechanical ventilation, according to the transient bound, SI Appendix, Eq. S8. Even with cloth mask use (pm=0.3pm=0.3), these bounds are increased dramatically, to 8 and 80 h, respectively. Assuming 6 h of indoor time per day, a school group wearing masks with adequate ventilation would thus be safe for longer than the recovery time for COVID-19 (7 d to 14 d), and school transmissions would be rare. We stress, however, that our predictions are based on the assumption of a “quiet classroom” (38, 77), where resting respiration (Cq=30Cq=30) is the norm. Extended periods of physical activity, collective speech, or singing would lower the time limit by an order of magnitude (Fig. 2).
 
These guidelines have never seemed well thought-out to me. They seemed like something that would emerge from a committee meeting involving a bunch of bureaucrats:

Bureaucrat 1: Ok, lets throw out some ideas; what does everyone think?

Bureaucrat 2: How about wearing surgical masks?

Bureaucrat 3: Let's make everyone separate; my suggestion would be six feet.

Bureaucrat 4: Let's require everyone to wash their hands ... let's make it a law!

Bureaucrat 5, and the guy no one pays attention to because he is usually a little more of a critical thinker: We need to explore how air flows around a given room and make sure what we are suggesting does any good ... and to figure out how these germs live and die and move around; that sort of thing.

Bureaucrat 1, again: Ok, then are we decided? Everyone should wear surgical masks, wash their hands constantly, and stay six feet apart?

Bureaucrats 1, 2, 3 and 4: in unison "That's the ticket, let's do it!."

Bureaucrat #5: Pfffffffffffffffft!!
Huh?
You guys think mask mandates are the equivalent of ripping up the Bill of Rights, and low-flow shower heads and LED light bulbs are liberal conspiracies...but you expect us to believe you’d be ok with government mandating businesses spend billions of dollars retrofitting ventilation systems?
 
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I thought it was clear, although not particularly publicized, that 3 feet was the actual meaningful distance, and 6 feet was "doubled to be extra safe because we can't trust you." I thought it was admitted this was another "noble lie."

Which of course, then 6ft was used to close schools and keep them closed, as well as other businesses.

The premise of trying to manage public health policy through noble lies is one I'd hope would have been thoroughly discredited by this pandemic, but no signs of that.

Ok, I looked up where I heard the 3 feet. The WHO recommended 3ft from the start, the CDC doubled it to be safe.

So to be fair, it's not like the WHO is more reliable than the CDC, so I don't know if it's a noble lie as much as it is taking a "best guess" and then using it like a club as if it's definitive.
 
F3.large.jpg


Their plots indicate it is absolutely a useful guideline.

And, in real world observations in restaurants, there have been FAR more infections than their model is showing, when air is moving between tables. Thus, they have some incorrect assumptions that are underestimating risks here.
 
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Huh?
You guys think mask mandates are the equivalent of ripping up the Bill of Rights, and low-flow shower heads and LED light bulbs are liberal conspiracies...but you expect us to believe you’d be ok with government mandating businesses spend billions of dollars retrofitting ventilation systems?

The study said fans and opening a window works just as good as the fancy ventilation systems.
 
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In both examples, the benefit of face masks is immediately apparent, since the CET limit is enhanced by a factor p−2mpm−2, the inverse square of the mask penetration factor. Standard surgical masks are characterized by pm=1to5pm=1to5% (73, 74), and so allow the CET to be extended by 400 to 10,000 times. Even cloth face coverings would extend the CET limit by 6 to 100 times for hybrid fabrics (pm=10to40%pm=10to40%) or 1.5 to 6 times for single-layer fabrics (pm=40to80%pm=40to80%) (75). Our inference of the efficacy of face masks in mitigating airborne transmission is roughly consistent with studies showing the benefits of mask use on COVID-19 transmission at the scales of both cities and countries
 
Huh?
You guys think mask mandates are the equivalent of ripping up the Bill of Rights, and low-flow shower heads and LED light bulbs are liberal conspiracies...but you expect us to believe you’d be ok with government mandating businesses spend billions of dollars retrofitting ventilation systems?
These guys ARE members of the Party of No....what do you expect.
 
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Adherence to the Six-Foot Rule would limit large-drop transmission, and adherence to our guideline, Eq. 5, would limit long-range airborne transmission. We have also shown how the sizable variations in pathogen concentration associated with respiratory flows, arising in a population not wearing face masks, might be taken into account. Consideration of both short-range and long-range airborne transmission leads to a guideline of the form of Eq. 7 that would bound both the distance between occupants and the CET
 
The risk of being exposed to Covid-19 indoors is as great at 60 feet as it is at 6 feet — even when wearing a mask, according to a new study by Massachusetts Institute of Technology researchers who challenge social distancing guidelines adopted across the world.

MIT professors Martin Z. Bazant, who teaches chemical engineering and applied mathematics, and John W.M. Bush, who teaches applied mathematics, developed a method of calculating exposure risk to Covid-19 in an indoor setting that factors in a variety of issues that could affect transmission, including the amount of time spent inside, air filtration and circulation, immunization, variant strains, mask use, and even respiratory activity such as breathing, eating, speaking or singing.

Bazant and Bush question long-held Covid-19 guidelines from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization in a peer-reviewed study published earlier this week in Proceedings of the National Academy of Science of the United States of America.

“We argue there really isn’t much of a benefit to the 6-foot rule, especially when people are wearing masks,” Bazant said in an interview. “It really has no physical basis because the air a person is breathing while wearing a mask tends to rise and comes down elsewhere in the room so you’re more exposed to the average background than you are to a person at a distance.”

The important variable the CDC and the WHO have overlooked is the amount of time spent indoors, Bazant said. The longer someone is inside with an infected person, the greater the chance of transmission, he said.

Opening windows or installing new fans to keep the air moving could also be just as effective or more effective than spending large amounts of money on a new filtration system, he said.

Bazant also says that guidelines enforcing indoor occupancy caps are flawed. He said 20 people gathered inside for 1 minute is probably fine, but not over the course of several hours, he said.

“What our analysis continues to show is that many spaces that have been shut down in fact don’t need to be. Often times the space is large enough, the ventilation is good enough, the amount of time people spend together is such that those spaces can be safely operated even at full capacity and the scientific support for reduced capacity in those spaces is really not very good,” Bazant said. “I think if you run the numbers, even right now for many types of spaces you’d find that there is not a need for occupancy restrictions.”

Six-feet social distancing rules that inadvertently result in closed businesses and schools are “just not reasonable,” according to Bazant.

“This emphasis on distancing has been really misplaced from the very beginning. The CDC or WHO have never really provided justification for it, they’ve just said this is what you must do and the only justification I’m aware of, is based on studies of coughs and sneezes, where they look at the largest particles that might sediment onto the floor and even then it’s very approximate, you can certainly have longer or shorter range, large droplets,” Bazant said.

“The distancing isn’t helping you that much and it’s also giving you a false sense of security because you’re as safe at 6 feet as you are at 60 feet if you’re indoors. Everyone in that space is at roughly the same risk, actually,” he noted.

Pathogen-laced droplets travel through the air indoors when people talk, breathe or eat. It is now known that airborne transmission plays a huge role in the spread of Covid-19, compared with the earlier months of the pandemic where hand-washing was considered the leading recommendation to avoid transmission.



Ok Trad, so now you’re aligning with science?

Now do climate change.
 
Closing schools sucks, but I vote we continue the 6 foot rule indefinitely. Waiting in lines feels kind of feels nice now - like a little break - instead of the nightmare of the old ways
 


"MIT professors Martin Z. Bazant, who teaches chemical engineering and applied mathematics, and John W.M. Bush, who teaches applied mathematics, developed a method of calculating exposure risk to Covid-19 in an indoor setting that factors in a variety of issues that could affect transmission, including the amount of time spent inside, air filtration and circulation, immunization, variant strains, mask use, and even respiratory activity such as breathing, eating, speaking or singing."
 
These guidelines have never seemed well thought-out to me. They seemed like something that would emerge from a committee meeting involving a bunch of bureaucrats:

Bureaucrat 1: Ok, lets throw out some ideas; what does everyone think?

Bureaucrat 2: How about wearing surgical masks?

Bureaucrat 3: Let's make everyone separate; my suggestion would be six feet.

Bureaucrat 4: Let's require everyone to wash their hands ... let's make it a law!

Bureaucrat 5, and the guy no one pays attention to because he is usually a little more of a critical thinker: We need to explore how air flows around a given room and make sure what we are suggesting does any good ... and to figure out how these germs live and die and move around; that sort of thing.

Bureaucrat 1, again: Ok, then are we decided? Everyone should wear surgical masks, wash their hands constantly, and stay six feet apart?

Bureaucrats 1, 2, 3 and 4: in unison "That's the ticket, let's do it!."

Bureaucrat #5: Pfffffffffffffffft!!
It's funny because it's true......
 
“We argue there really isn’t much of a benefit to the 6-foot rule, especially when people are wearing masks,”
This is why I say they are full of sheet. Why would it be even MORE an issue when people are wearing masks?
 
The teacher unions are really going to like this study.
 
You all are posting this like scientists are embarrassed about making the better safe than sorry choice. Again, this is demonstrating a staggering lack of understanding of how science works. Research shows that 6 feet of distance isn't necessary? Great! Now serious scientists have some evidence to support an action rather than just pulling shit out of their ass because it makes people feel better. Who cares if it ends up getting people killed? If you want scientists to do something, then provide them with evidence it works. Otherwise, they will always choose the path with the least risk. Always.

Also, one study doesn't mean much. There need to be multiple upon multiple studies showing the same results for serious researchers to be swayed. Although, fwiw, the CDC has been saying 3 feet for some time now.
 
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"MIT professors Martin Z. Bazant, who teaches chemical engineering and applied mathematics, and John W.M. Bush, who teaches applied mathematics, developed a method of calculating exposure risk to Covid-19 in an indoor setting that factors in a variety of issues that could affect transmission, including the amount of time spent inside, air filtration and circulation, immunization, variant strains, mask use, and even respiratory activity such as breathing, eating, speaking or singing."

Which doesn't address the "assumptions" their models make.
At all.
 
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