So what did the US do wrong in Iraq and Afghanistan?
**** Official Israel War thread****
- Thread starter EagleHawk
- Start date
Nice trap question. You could ask the people that were in charge in those countries themselves except they are dead.
Iran would fall quickly. What it became on the other side of that is unknown.
You di understand there is a difference between war and nation building right? We would kick the shit out if Iran. If we wished we could maintain a base in Iran literally forever. We could still be in Afghanistan if we wanted and could take anything we wanted there back shortly.
I have not described our military as in competent. Ever.
You totally underestimate a society that has existed for millennia. They were some of the early mathematicians and scientists. Despite decades of sanctions, their military is quite capable.
Ask the US survivors of the attack they inflicted on our base in Syria following killing of the leader of the Quds force, Solemani (?).
They do missiles and drones quite well, which worries me as a significant % of our naval power is approaching range for their assets.
You underestimate the proxy allies they have built up and the fact they we are far from home with limited numbers. Sure, plenty of Iranians wish for regime change, but so did the Syrian populace.
it’s a ‘trap question’ to ask what happens after we destroy most of their military capabilities?
I figured the last 30 years would have taught us that “What then?” is actually a pretty important question in an overall strategy.
You may want to get in a fuss with Iran and maintain a base for the rest of your life. Go out in the street and line up support and volunteers.
Don’t be a simpleton. The forces in play right now are as complex and dangerous worldwide as have existed in all living people’s lifetimes. This is not a spat that will be over in a week.
Agreed. Iran is much more fanatical religiously than Iraq, much larger, and much more mountainous. It would be like Afghanistan on steroids.
As much as young people want revolution there it simply wouldn’t last. The majority of the populace not only has to want democracy, they need to be willing to fight and die for it. We tried this shit in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran with the Shah. Corruption and self-interest always win out in these cultures.
I’m not advocating against hitting Iran - in fact, I think those assholes need to have their jaw broken - but thinking we could easily topple them and watch democracy flourish is a pipe dream. New ayatollahs would eventually replace the dead ones.
I didn't say that I wanted that I said we are capable of doing it. We already have an entire military of volunteers and they absolutely could and would kick the living hell out of Iran.
No the forces in the world are not more complex and dangerous worldwide than in all living peoples lifetimes. You are just noticing it now. It is and always has been this complex and dangerous. Who called thus a spat or said it would be over in a week. Iran's leadership would be done in less than a month. For someone throwing out the word simpleton you sure a clueless about how the world works. This fight has been brewing for decades.
By the way the real reason we had and have bases in Germany and Japan is because they didn't go quietly into the good night just because a paper was signed.
Iran threatened us in and in true cowardice you start talking about how we don't want to get into it with them. We are into it with them and your cowardice is not going to carry the day. If Iran wants a fight they will absolutely get one.
Who said anything a about democracy flourishing? Iran just threatened us a d you are talking about democracy flourishing as the purpose of hitting them. Ehqt planet are you on? It sure as he'll isn't about democracy flourishing if we get into it with Iran.
Sure, sport.
The weaponry arrayed across the world today trumps any time in known history.
You posted “… we could turn out their capabilities tonight if we wished.” Again, you vastly underestimate all of the adversaries arrayed against Israel and anyone who goes into battle with them.
You speak of cowardice like some big boy. Wow. It is reality that I am speaking.
A
anon_b29nm7v7dwp6r
Guest
The simple fact that we have so many military assets surging that way tells me they think this whole thing might go south pretty quickly.
Weird that I can click a link and track that ship. Also, it appears to be riding pretty high in the water, and according to Wikipedia it has been stricken from the active USNS rolls. So, is it a contract ship?
60 Minutes had a riveting segment tonight about a retired Israeli general who drove from Tel Aviv with his wife to get to their son trapped in a kibbutz during the terrorist raids. Along they way they met some people fleeing, ran around some police check points, ran into the remains of an IDF squad killed by the terrorists, and the man joined up with IDF commandos and helped to clear the kibbutz and rescue his son.
All the time there was a drumbeat of why was Israel so unprepared, and why weren't their sufficient forces in the area. Along with this article there may be some answers. Netanyahu, and a few ultra hard right cabinet members, pushed IDF forces towards the West Bank to protect settlers, a group more aligned to Netanyahu's ruling coalition.
Also on 60 Minutes was an interview with President Biden. It's nice to have a steady hand on the till. He gets the job. I like that for now he differentiated historical support of Hamas by Iran versus needing proof that Iran was directly involved in these attacks.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/neta...icism-hamas-attack_n_652b1627e4b03b213b061032
All the time there was a drumbeat of why was Israel so unprepared, and why weren't their sufficient forces in the area. Along with this article there may be some answers. Netanyahu, and a few ultra hard right cabinet members, pushed IDF forces towards the West Bank to protect settlers, a group more aligned to Netanyahu's ruling coalition.
Also on 60 Minutes was an interview with President Biden. It's nice to have a steady hand on the till. He gets the job. I like that for now he differentiated historical support of Hamas by Iran versus needing proof that Iran was directly involved in these attacks.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/neta...icism-hamas-attack_n_652b1627e4b03b213b061032
hawkeyetraveler
HB Heisman
It sure seems like the shit is aimed at the fan with the potential for a direct hit.
I agree with @hawkedoff that the US and Israel could quickly dismantle the Iranian leadership’s ability to govern in short order. BUT, per the CIA world Factbook they have hundreds of thousands of people in their active military and 31 million men of fighting age. Sure we could smash the anthill, but the ants will scatter and then we would have dozens of Fallujah’s on our hands if we want to truly dismantle the terrorist threat. It’s one thing to deploy shock and awe airpower. It’s another thing to deal with the aftermath. I for one do not want US troops anywhere on the ground in Iran.
Plus, I do not think the distraction is wise with Russia and North Korean posturing for aggression - not to mention China! Would they use the distraction to make their move on Taiwan?
I think the current course of using our strength as a deterrence is the right one. I really hope Iran does not try to f*ck with us, or try a full on invasion of Israel. We would end their leadership but then what? That feels like a WW3 type scenario.
I agree with @hawkedoff that the US and Israel could quickly dismantle the Iranian leadership’s ability to govern in short order. BUT, per the CIA world Factbook they have hundreds of thousands of people in their active military and 31 million men of fighting age. Sure we could smash the anthill, but the ants will scatter and then we would have dozens of Fallujah’s on our hands if we want to truly dismantle the terrorist threat. It’s one thing to deploy shock and awe airpower. It’s another thing to deal with the aftermath. I for one do not want US troops anywhere on the ground in Iran.
Plus, I do not think the distraction is wise with Russia and North Korean posturing for aggression - not to mention China! Would they use the distraction to make their move on Taiwan?
I think the current course of using our strength as a deterrence is the right one. I really hope Iran does not try to f*ck with us, or try a full on invasion of Israel. We would end their leadership but then what? That feels like a WW3 type scenario.
Not to go all crazy and off the deep end but to add to this growing shit pile…the economy. What better way to boost an economy than war? War time economy is good economy.
Without the Iranian leadership in place I could see an uprising that overthrows their entire government system.
Sorta strange how this thread doesn’t have numerous posts celebrating destruction like the Ukraine one does
China doing China things by refusing to condemn Hamas, attacking Israel for civilian casualties, and for being a US proxy as they attempt to triangulate better relations with the Arab nations. China and Iran have deep economic ties.
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/15/china-israel-hamas-war
https://www.axios.com/2023/10/15/china-israel-hamas-war
Different things. I'll celebrate dead terrorists, but what's going on in Gaza isn't the classic nation-state war like between Russia and Ukraine with an aggressor seeking territory and resources.
Also, the Israelis aren't sharing as much stuff as Ukraine is. The Ukrainians are better at propaganda and is providing content to celebrate.
We invaded and occupied them. Without a clear defined mission. If the military engages Iran in traditional warfare. It wouldn't last long. Now if the US invaded and attempted to occupy Iran that's a different scenario.
"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad."
Welp.
www.timesofisrael.com
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad."
Welp.
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
www.timesofisrael.com
1. There are plenty of celebratory posts about attacks within Russia which aren't necessarily military-focused, so I'm not really sure that there is a difference..
2. As to Ukrainian propaganda, well, yes, exactly. (And it's not that the Israelis are bad at it, it's that they don't really care and don't need it to begin with.)
1. Oh, there is a massive difference. Targets have been specifically designed to impact the war effort, and although splashy, have not resulted in mass casualties. My ignore list has grown a lot recently, but I don't see anyone calling for the Ukrainians to go into Russia to slaughter civilians, and bring back captives.
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anon_b29nm7v7dwp6r
Guest
Yep. Just last week two carrier strike groups in the med wasn’t even being talked about…and now with Blinken running back and forth….it sure feels like leadership feels like things are on the knife’s edge too.
Hopefully Iran doesn’t do anything dumb. Because that would ignite this powder keg.
I also hope China doesn’t make a play for Taiwan or North Korea decides to try to take advantage of this…
As someone else said, the stuff sure seems to be aimed directly at the fan….for a couple years now it has just felt like the world is itching for a fight.
if we truly get involved with iran good chance (imo almost certain) that china goes for taiwan within a month.
the chessboard is so damn complex right now. if we can bring the ukraine conflict to a swift conclusion changes everything dramatically for the better...
Given the backlash towards Israel like I don’t recall seeing, I think this is Israel’s last chance to eliminate Hamas before it becomes politically-difficult in the US
Starting to get a bad feeling that this thing is sorta going sideways at an accelerating pace. Really hoping for the best from Blinken's efforts, but his change of itinerary seems more worrisome than optimistic to me.
I'll probably heed the call of the Patriarch of Jerusalem, and our local bishop, for a day of fasting, abstinence, and prayer for peace in the Holy Land tomorrow. At this point, it sure can't hurt.
I'll probably heed the call of the Patriarch of Jerusalem, and our local bishop, for a day of fasting, abstinence, and prayer for peace in the Holy Land tomorrow. At this point, it sure can't hurt.
You so damned clueless. The weaponry arrayed.....dude we are the weapons arrayed across the world.
We can absolutely flip a switch and turn off Irans electronic capabilities. We have done it before to countries on a limited scope to send them a message. Like turning off their defense systems which we have done while flying over defensive formations as a very clear message we could end you but didn't.
You are ****ing coward. I have lived the reality if being a soldier. This pandering fear approach you are taking is exactly the type of mealy mouthed bulkshit that empowers states like Iran to act. Evil exists and it lurks. We didn't pick this fight despite and we most certainly aren't going to run from it because cowards like you are worried about the weapons arrayed against us across the world. They need to be worried about us and a reminder of that is absolutely required in a situation like this. The idea you believe our only option is nukes is indicative of how stupid and uninformed you are about our capabilities.
This is big boy stuff even though you used that phrase as a sneering insult and you seem to actually think talking nice is going to work. Iran is done of we choose for them to be done in their current format and if they need a reminder of that we absolutely should provide that reminder. Christ the only reason they are still around is because we have put handcuffs on Israel and you think we couldn't end them? Israel could end them.
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