It's not the pragmatists, like me, preventing a viable 3rd party. It's the election laws and fundraising rules. Feel free to continue wasting your time, and votes, tilting at windmills.
Oh my. This is the president of the United States.
- Thread starter NorthernHawkeye
- Start date
Just for curiosity's sake....how many times do you think I've "thrown away" my vote on 3rd parties? Must be a lot, don't you think?
I used to vote third party. Then 2000 happened. And 2004 happened. I learned really quickly that voting my conscious stood a better chance of landing the guy I really didn't like into office than getting the guy I really liked in there.
Ok, I’ll list a few of Trump administration accomplishments: implemented major tax initiatives, such as, doubled the standard deduction to $24K, cut biz rate from 35% (which was highest in developed world) to 21%, and doubled child tax credits. Had massive deregulation providing the average American household $3.1k more per year. Helped community banks by signing legislation that rolled back costly Dodd-Frank provisions. Trump signed an executive order to make it easier for businesses to offer retirement plans. Negotiated a deal with Japan to boost $40 billion worth of digital trade. Achieved a mutual agreement with the EU to address unfair trade practices. Imposed tariffs on hundreds of billions worth of Chinese goods to protect American jobs. For first time in nearly 70 years the U.S. became a net energy exporter. Stronger southern border by ending “catch & release” and initiated remain in Mexico policy. Secured a $40 billion increase in defense spending from NATO members, Conducted vigorous enforcement on sanctions to bring Iran’s oil exports way down so as to deny that regime its primary source of revenue. Brokered historic peace agreements between Israel & Arab-Muslim countries. Secured 3 pay raises for our service members, including the largest raise in a decade. Defeated ISUS in Iraq and Syria, with the leader of ISUS being killed. Reduced veteran homelessness & record low veteran unemployment. Violent crimes declined during Trump administration as he provided DOJ with $400 million for new law enforcement hiring, along with providing surplus military equipment to local law enforcement agencies. I could go on, but as you can see Trump admin did more than you apparently are aware of. Have a nice day. 😉
This is my last post in this thread.
People should be allowed to vote as they see fit. Nobody....and I mean NOBODY...has the right to tell someone else how to vote. Nobody has the right to tell someone they can only vote D or R, and that voting 3rd party is throwing their vote away. To me, voting your conscience is NEVER throwing your vote away.
I refuse to vote for a candidate I don't like. Period. End of story. And I refuse to vote for the "least worse" of two candidates. That's just wrong (in my opinion, and according to my personal values). But if someone else wants to vote that way, that is their right.
If someone, in good conscience, casts their vote for the person they think is the best candidate even if that candidate has no chance of winning...that person should be congratulated, not disparaged. Encouraged, not made fun of.
I also reject the idea that we, as American citizens, have to just sit back and accept the current system because "that's just the way it is". Good thing the Founding Fathers didn't feel that way!
People should be allowed to vote as they see fit. Nobody....and I mean NOBODY...has the right to tell someone else how to vote. Nobody has the right to tell someone they can only vote D or R, and that voting 3rd party is throwing their vote away. To me, voting your conscience is NEVER throwing your vote away.
I refuse to vote for a candidate I don't like. Period. End of story. And I refuse to vote for the "least worse" of two candidates. That's just wrong (in my opinion, and according to my personal values). But if someone else wants to vote that way, that is their right.
If someone, in good conscience, casts their vote for the person they think is the best candidate even if that candidate has no chance of winning...that person should be congratulated, not disparaged. Encouraged, not made fun of.
I also reject the idea that we, as American citizens, have to just sit back and accept the current system because "that's just the way it is". Good thing the Founding Fathers didn't feel that way!
I believe that is exactly what he is doing by voting 3rd party.
With all the I's you used in this post it is clear you are someone who makes elections about you instead of making them about what is best for the country given only 2 viable candidates. I agree with Riley that the latter is the logical and responsible thing to do
You are entitled to do what you want with your vote. Just don't get defensive when the impact of making it about you (like Donald Trump being elected president) is pointed out to you. People like you are exactly why he won in 2016 and has a decent shot in November. Own it
Oh ffs get off your high-horse. I swear to christ we either have to deal with the dumbass MAGAs or the holier than thou liberals. People like you and Riley think your shit doesn't stink and look down your nose at anyone who doesn't view things exactly they way you do. I voted 3rd party in 2016 because that's what I fvcking wanted to do and I voted for Biden in 2020 because I wasn't a big fan of Jo, Trump was trash and figured maybe Joe had a few years left in him.
So, you're going to blame me, alaska guy and anyone else who didn't vote for Clinton in 2016? That's no different than dumbass MAGAs screaming that it's the Dems fault that Trump will win in 2024 because Biden won't step aside. Jesus, just listen to yourself. Don't blame the 3rd party people who are fvcking sick to death of two party politics.
Who is preventing you from voting how you wish? And I have the right to tell you anything I want to tell you.
This is just more fodder for republicans who are trying camouflage their underlying support for Trump.
Exactly. They are simply ashamed to admit their underlying support of Trump and think voting for a candidate who has no chance hides that. They are fooling only themselves.
You are as culpable as anyone else who didn't vote for Clinton in 2016. You don't want that stink on you, understandably, but you have it. And it doesn't wash off.
Sure, it’s called 3rd party and a clear conscience.
It's cute you think your smarter than everyone else.
I'm not the one being defensive. I'm fine with my vote as well as yours and Riley's. You and Riley are not okay with my vote, so that's on you. Johnson was the first 3rd party candidate to come along in 20 years to actually have a chance of getting 5 or more percent of the popular vote, so I took a risk on change. ...as did nearly 5 mil other Americans.
If Gary Johnson had received 5% or more of the popular vote in 2016, the Libertarian Party would have qualified for federal matching funds for the 2020 election. This would have provided significant financial support for the party, helping to cover campaign expenses and likely increasing their visibility and competitiveness in future elections. Had that happened, I firmly believe a 3rd party candidate would have had a strong chance in 2020 to draw in even more votes; especially considering the candidates and the momentum would have been at its strongest in 2024. So, yes, that's what I voted for--change.
I'm OK with your vote. I'm simply calling it what it is - a waste and tacit support for Trump.
Excactly, Alaska Guy! And because Jo didn't have nearly the draw/momentum, I decided to vote for Biden in 2020. I really thought Gary had a shot (not at winning). I need to read up on what changed there towards the end. He was polling extremely well for a while.
And here comes Jan. Another of several who get very upset when their foolishness is exposed.
Voting third party is not a waste; it's a principled stand for broader representation and real change. Calling it tacit support for Trump dismisses the genuine desire for alternatives and undermines democratic choice. My vote is for what I believe in, not against something else. We don't have to agree and we clearly won't.
IMO Democracy thrives on choices, not fear-based voting.
From ChatGPT
Several factors contributed to the decline in Gary Johnson's poll numbers during the 2016 presidential campaign:
- Increased Focus on Major Party Candidates: As the election approached, the focus of media coverage and public attention increasingly shifted to the major party candidates, Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. This reduced the visibility and perceived viability of third-party candidates like Johnson.
- Perceived Vote-Splitting: Many voters who might have considered voting for Johnson decided to support one of the major party candidates out of concern that voting for a third-party candidate would split the vote and help the less preferred major candidate win.
- Gaffes and Lack of Policy Knowledge: Johnson faced significant criticism for several high-profile gaffes, most notably his "What is Aleppo?" moment when he was unable to recognize the name of a key Syrian city involved in the ongoing civil war. Such incidents raised questions about his foreign policy knowledge and overall preparedness for the presidency.
- Debate Exclusion: Johnson did not meet the polling threshold required to participate in the presidential debates. His exclusion from these high-visibility events limited his ability to reach a broader audience and present his platform alongside the major candidates.
- Limited Resources: The Libertarian Party's campaign had significantly fewer financial and organizational resources compared to the Democratic and Republican campaigns. This limited Johnson's ability to run advertisements, organize events, and maintain a robust campaign infrastructure.
- Strategic Voting: As Election Day neared, some voters who were initially inclined to support Johnson switched their votes to one of the major party candidates, often as part of a strategic calculation to prevent the candidate they opposed more from winning.
As another poster stated, it's a selfish vote in addition to being a waste. It's your right to be selfish and waste a vote but don't try to fool everyone that it is anything but.
I'm at least trying to have a civil discourse with you, Riley. In post #100 you said two things I agree with:
#1 - There needs to be a viable candidate as a 3rd party to get people to vote that way.
I agree and based on the polling, Gary was a viable candidate. Not for an overnight change, but for a significant leap towards future change. IMO, it was the best chance in 2 decades and it is why for the first time I voted 3rd party.
#2 - I would love to have a zero party system. I've been a critic of the two party system ever since I have been able to vote. I've never been a member of either party.
Aside from doing nothing and just keep accepting what is forced upon us, what do you recommend we Americans do? Based on your statement, I'd have thought you'd be first in line back in 2016 for a 3rd party vote.
As am I.
Gary Johnson was never a viable candidate. To be viable you have to have some chance at winning and there was never the remotest chance of that happening. He couldn't get enough support to even get on the debate stage.
Continue pushing for election reform. Until that happens it makes no sense to vote for a candidate that has no opportunity to make that or any other policy happen.
So fear got everyone back in line. Imagine if fear hadn't won the day and hope did. You voted out of fear, Riley. Why can't you see that?
Sorry, I missed a quote in my response. I didn't mean between us, I meant others in response to you.
I did not vote out of fear. I voted for the better candidate, the one I preferred. I had no interest in Gary Johnson and neither did the vast majority of voters.
that's fair.
See, I'm just not sold on that. I think too many people vote out of fear or straight party line. I used to vote party line because of the dogma I was raised in. That hasn't been the case, though, since my early 40s.
I guess you and I define viable differently. I wasn't looking at a candidate to win. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt Gary wouldn't win. He was viable for future change. Image if he'd have won 5% or more, then fast forward to 2028/32 with 3rd party on the stage. We'd have looked back at 2016 and said, "that's where change began".
I don't think that at all. There are more Independent voters than there are in either the republican or Democratic party. I'm certain there are those who will vote straight ticket but that is more rare now than it was 50 years ago. The libertarian party has some supporters (mostly conservatives that don't like the republican party) but their platform has not been able to generate enthusiasm at all.
What makes you think that would have led to change? Ross Perot got 19% of the vote in 1992 and it didn't lead to change.
For starters Independent isn't a party and Perot was a Billionaire not needing funding. If Johnson had received 5% or more of the vote in 2016, it would have been more impactful than Perot's 1992 campaign because he represented an established Libertarian Party. Perot had no party to "boost."
That doesn't make any sense. You're suggesting that someone in a 3rd party getting to 5% in the popular vote would somehow trigger that party to vault ahead of either the Democratic or republican parties? Do you think this would happen for any 3rd party or just the libertarian party?
What would cause millions and millions of voters to start supporting that party?
Didn't you agree with me on a preference for no parties? If so, why are you pushing the libertarian party?
I never said ahead...I said to the stage. If people don't vote 3rd party because they don't think they're viable, then let's make them viable, get them funding, get them on the debate stage.
And yes, I'd prefer zero parties, but I feel we have a better chance of more than zero.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've at least put some thought into it so don't label me essentially a closet Trump supporter because I made a different choice than Hillary and Donald.
You're logic is sound in perfect or even close to perfect world, it really is...but the older I got and closer I looked, it's not even above average. And when you have someone like Trump taking a stranglehold over a major party, I don't give a shit which one, then you do whatever you can to keep him and his ilk out of power.
He knows when and how to use your and you're.
You are entitled to this view. Nobody is saying you aren't. We're simply saying that this view is shortsighted. I personally don't vote Dem because I like them. They haven't given much for a progressive like me. I vote Dem because the Rs are nuts.
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