RBY to Iowa?

[MVPFAN]

Sorenson was ranked much higher then that; #27 overall at D1CW. http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Top200_2013.html

With the steady flow of alternative facts and fake news over here, you guys are going to need permanent fact checkers soon.

Considering Retherford just TF and Pinned his way through the NCAA tournament, it's safe to say he has developed just as much, if not more at PSU. This is undeniable.

Intermat is the more main stream source.


8. Iowa

Top 100 recruits: No. 32 Aaron Bradley (Nazareth, Pa.), No. 55 Broc Berge (Kasson-Mantorville, Minn.), No. 62 Brandon Sorensen (Denver-Tripoli, Iowa), and No. 65 Jake Marlin (Creston, Iowa)

Commentary: Even though this Hawkeye class is not rated number one, and falls outside of the top five in the rankings, it is still a solid group for Tom Brands and staff. The ability to bring in four top wrestlers who combine for eleven state titles between them in the midst of what else is on the roster speaks to the cache of the Iowa brand. Berge and Bradley will provide depth in the upper-weights, while Sorensen and Marlin do the same for the middle-weights.

 

[maize_mechanic]

Sorenson was ranked much higher then that; #27 overall at D1CW. http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Top200_2013.html

With the steady flow of fake news over here, you guys are going to need permanent fact checkers soon.

Considering Retherford just TF and Pinned his way through the NCAA tournament, it's safe to say he has developed just as much, if not more at PSU. This is undeniable.

I'm honored you consider me a journalist.

I pulled that ranking from this article (already referenced multiple times on this board): https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/18008. Wasn't trying to create an alternate reality. Flo had Sorenson at #9 and Retherford at #1 for 149 in 2013.

And I agree Retherford has developed amazingly at PSU, but not sure how you quantify "just as much, if not more" given he was #1 to begin with. Sorenson goes from #9 to placing 4,2,3. Retherford from #1 to placing 5, 1, 1.

 

[relishingwinning18]

Sorenson was ranked much higher then that; #27 overall at D1CW. http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Top200_2013.html Considering Retherford just TF and Pinned his way through the NCAA tournament, it's safe to say he has developed just as much, if not more at PSU. This is undeniable.

With the steady flow of alternative facts and fake news over here, you guys are going to need permanent fact checkers soon.

Are you saying he wasn't TF these same wrestlers in HS?

 

[Flying_Tiger]

I'm honored you consider me a journalist.

I pulled that ranking from this article (already referenced multiple times on this board): https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/18008. Wasn't trying to create an alternate reality. Flo had Sorenson at #9 and Retherford at #1 for 149 in 2013.

And I agree Retherford has developed amazingly at PSU, but not sure how you quantify "just as much, if not more" given he was #1 to begin with. Sorenson goes from #9 to placing 4,2,3. Retherford from #1 to placing 5, 1, 1.

Because you can't go higher then #1, that's why. It's the same reason it's very hard to wrestle above seed when you are seeded high. Just look at what he has done compared to the two guys that were ranked ahead of him or against the top 10 in general. Like it or not, Sanderson is taking these highly regarded recruits to another level.

 

[relishingwinning18]

I'm also going to add, the GT told the PSU coaches 3 months ago he was flipping. They kept it a secret until late. Shady sh**!

 

[MVPFAN]

I'm also going to add, the GT told the PSU coaches 3 months ago he was flipping. They kept it a secret until late. Shady sh**!

Probably the time he changed his twitter stuff, lol.

 

[SCKCtb93]

I'm also going to add, the GT told the PSU coaches 3 months ago he was flipping. They kept it a secret until late. Shady sh**!

I thought of this also. IF he knew he was flipping to PSU back when he took the "Iowa commit" off of his Twitter bio then it can be clearly deduced that the only reason that he would have waited this long to announce it would be to screw over Iowa's chances at recruiting other guys in this class.

 

[maize_mechanic]

Because you can't go higher then #1, that's why. It's the same reason it's very hard to wrestle above seed when you are seeded high. Just look at what he has done compared to the two guys that were ranked ahead of him or against the top 10 in general. Like it or not, Sanderson is taking these highly regarded recruits to another level.

Again, I agree that Retherford has developed at PSU (others may not), but your statement that he's developed as much or more than Sorenson is very difficult to quantify, and using the metric I provided it would suggest Sorenson has developed more. I agree that you can't do better than placing 1st, but I think it's difficult to say that being a dominant 1st place finisher as opposed to just being a 1st place finisher, is more development than going from a #9 ranking to consistent top 5 finishes.

I'm open to your idea about comparing to other top 10 recruits. So what's the data?

 

[MVPFAN]

Again, I agree that Retherford has developed at PSU (others may not), but your statement that he's developed as much or more than Sorenson is very difficult to quantify, and using the metric I provided it would suggest Sorenson has developed more. I agree that you can't do better than placing 1st, but I think it's difficult to say that being a dominant 1st place finisher as opposed to just being a 1st place finisher, is more development than going from a #9 ranking to consistent top 5 finishes.

I'm open to your idea about comparing to other top 10 recruits. So what's the data?

Keep in mind he was #9 in one class but in college there are guys from multiple classes at the weight.

 

[1stplacehawk]

Another argument that can't be definitively proven, but we're going to have a ton of back and forth, because whack job fans can't stay objective. Continue to pass on opinions as facts, folks

 

[maize_mechanic]

Keep in mind he was #9 in one class but in college there are guys from multiple classes at the weight.

Yeah, this really muddies the comparison--which is why I think overall rank is probably a better indicator of how good they are. A top 10 at the weight should/could be an all american in their career. A top 10 overall should be top 4 ever year (assuming that each class doesn't have multiple individuals at the weight in the top 10).

 

[latdrop170]

Another argument that can't be definitively proven, but we're going to have a ton of back and forth, because whack job fans can't stay objective. Continue to pass on opinions as facts, folks

Good thing none of that "whack job" stuff goes on here....LOL

 

[1stplacehawk]

Good thing none of that "whack job" stuff goes on here....LOL

If you were able to read, you might deduce that my post referenced both fan bases. Calling an argument pointless means that both sides are at fault. You're new here so you don't realize that I call out hawkeye fans quite frequently. Thanks for your contributions

 

[dicemen99]

------

Dice, that's a rather lengthy post, but I'll try to address the main points.

I've never said Cael can't develop wrestlers, I just said it's hard to tell how much, given the high level he is starting with. The rest is you just putting words in my mouth, and making wrong assumptions.

As far as your stats, not arguing them, but you are missing an essential point, and your stats do not refute it.

Josh Shields, Jered Cortez and Garrett Peppelman were all top ranked in their weight classes, but none were top 10 p4p. A guy can be the top in his weight class and not be ranked in the top 10 p4p.

Cael goes well above that.

Cael has been getting guys that are all tops in weight class, but also virtually all top 10 p4p, many top 5 p4p and two #1p4p. No one - Iowa, tOSU, Okla St - comes close.

Look at the past 6 years. Somewhat arbitrary, but if one looks at the truly elite, say the top 7 p4p, here's how the recruiting #'s break down for the last 6 years 2011 through 2016.

PSU 11 (Hall, Suriano, Manville, Joseph, Nolf, Nevills, Nickal, Retherford, Gulibon
McIntosh, Megaludis)

Iowa 1 (Marinelli)

PSU trounces everyone in getting the very elite.

Cael has been more successful at recruiting elites than anyone. That is indisputable. If you feel a need to get defensive about it, that's your call.

I can't disagree with any statements you made above and apologize that I wrongly inferred your intent. Or perhaps got you mistaken with some other posters who bang the drum on this - I'll refer to another poster here who just asserted Cael "can't hold Brands jock" in development.

Only slight issue I would disagree is your statement that it is hard to tell how much development he does. I would assert that Cael & Co.'s development skills are evident in the statistics, but would also state that it's a different comparison in developing elite guys into multi NCs, than less than elite guys into AA contenders. Apples and Oranges. And btw, there is evidence that PSU does it's share of the latter.

But good post by you. I would agree that the playing field is not level right now - hard not to see that.

 

[SPOONER]

Anyone who doesn't think Cael develops wrestlers isn't paying attention. Claiming he doesn't just makes someone look dumb.

 

[DonHawkeye]

Anyone who doesn't think Cael develops wrestlers isn't paying attention. Claiming he doesn't just makes someone look dumb.

One of the best ways to develop wrestlers is to have them practice day in and day out in a room full of studs. So it really doesn't matter if he is good in the room or just good at getting a room full of self motivated studs. Same result. With the momentum they are building and the fact that no one in charge of enforcing recruiting rules cares about wrestling and his willingness to push in that area as hard as he can I see him "developing" even more and more wrestlers in the future.

 

[goethe14]

One of the best ways to develop wrestlers is to have them practice day in and day out in a room full of studs. So it really doesn't matter if he is good in the room or just good at getting a room full of self motivated studs. Same result. With the momentum they are building and the fact that no one in charge of enforcing recruiting rules cares about wrestling and his willingness to push in that area as hard as he can I see him "developing" even more and more wrestlers in the future.

I come in peace but what exactly is there to enforce if a recruit wants to come to a school for nothing or barely anything? What if it is just that simple that recruits see the results and think Cael can get them there. You are a corrrect competing day in and day out against other elites is also a draw. But this is nothing different than Gable's dominance when people would do just about anything to wrestle for him and be a part of the hawkeye program.

 

[MVPFAN]

I come in peace but what exactly is there to enforce if a recruit wants to come to a school for nothing or barely anything? What if it is just that simple that recruits see the results and think Cael can get them there. You are a corrrect competing day in and day out against other elites is also a draw. But this is nothing different than Gable's dominance when people would do just about anything to wrestle for him and be a part of the hawkeye program.

Nothing wrong with them willing to come to a school for little but in the end it has to be that way. Finding creative ways to make up the difference is where the problem can occur. Everything from under the table payments to the athlete or the family of the athlete to over payment for work performed to guaranteed employment later on have all been used in college athletics.

 

[WatWest00]

Anyone who doesn't think Cael develops wrestlers isn't paying attention. Claiming he doesn't just makes someone look dumb.

I agree that Cael plays a pivotal role in making the best high school wrestlers the best collegiate folkstylers. But you have CP and Willie claiming that he is far and away the best at developing wrestlers, and I just don't buy that one bit.

When their supporting evidence on FRL yesterday was Zain Retherford and Vincenzo Joseph -- both top high school recruits -- and conveniently leaves out Cael's entire ISU coaching career where there were little signs of development, then I have a few issues with the claim that he develops wrestlers better than anybody else.

 

[relishingwinning18]

I thought of this also. IF he knew he was flipping to PSU back when he took the "Iowa commit" off of his Twitter bio then it can be clearly deduced that the only reason that he would have waited this long to announce it would be to screw over Iowa's chances at recruiting other guys in this class.

I actually believe that was the reason he held off. Again, shady shit!

 

[The Vak]

I'm also going to add, the GT told the PSU coaches 3 months ago he was flipping. They kept it a secret until late. Shady sh**!

How could you possibly know this?

If it's true, obviously that's some really ugly stuff, but I just don't see how you can know this. I have no doubt that PSU coaches are extremely pleased that it played out this way, but I can't imagine Gavin would have participated, especially since he's friends with Spencer.

 

[whatsup13579er]

How could you possibly know this?

If it's true, obviously that's some really ugly stuff, but I just don't see how you can know this. I have no doubt that PSU coaches are extremely pleased that it played out this way, but I can't imagine Gavin would have participated, especially since he's friends with Spencer.

How could you possibly know this?

 

[theXbomber]

The fact alone that Cael is bringing a new model of wrestling that has been wildly successful means he is one of the following:

1) Great tactician and strategist to disrupt the whole sport like he is

2) great at development

3) great at recruiting and seeing talent

Truth is its probably all of the above. Arguing it's one or the other is naive. You don't have success like he's having by just simply recruiting the best players and leaving them stagnant in their development and expecting them to win like they do. If that were the case, other wrestlers would be putting up the bonus point numbers like they do... and it's not happening.

 

[The Vak]

How could you possibly know this?

I don't. Which is why I said I can't imagine that he did, not that there's no way that he did.

 

[minnhawkeye]

Well for some of the wrestling GT was sitting with Spencer at nationals just 2 rows ahead of me. He did not seem to be very happy while Spencer was having a good time and talking with Hawk fans. I'm sure GT feels in a way bad about not being with Spencer.
Just my opinon Cael screwed a 125 # wrestler from getting in to the nationals by not taking Suriano out and then he gets the 3 seed and does not even try to wrestle. At least JR. had DS take mat and try before taking him out. But like they tell us Cael is so honest and straight lol

 

[maize_mechanic]

The fact alone that Cael is bringing a new model of wrestling that has been wildly successful means he is one of the following:

1) Great tactician and strategist to disrupt the whole sport like he is

2) great at development

3) great at recruiting and seeing talent

Truth is its probably all of the above. Arguing it's one or the other is naive. You don't have success like he's having by just simply recruiting the best players and leaving them stagnant in their development and expecting them to win like they do. If that were the case, other wrestlers would be putting up the bonus point numbers like they do... and it's not happening.

I agree. I also think the continual presentation of development vs. recruiting is a false dichotomy. Bringing amazing talent into your room has got to be a huge component of developing wrestlers. When I think of "development", I picture Zain wrestling with Nolf, Molinaro, Gomez, Taylor, Brown, Joseph, Hall. Not Cael telling Zain how to finish a takedown.

This is what Iowa has done so well at the lower weights, and also why we are at a disadvantage. Building a team around a core set of middle weight studs is much better for development of the entire team than around either lower or upper weights individually.

 

[SPOONER]

I agree that Cael plays a pivotal role in making the best high school wrestlers the best collegiate folkstylers. But you have CP and Willie claiming that he is far and away the best at developing wrestlers, and I just don't buy that one bit.

When their supporting evidence on FRL yesterday was Zain Retherford and Vincenzo Joseph -- both top high school recruits -- and conveniently leave out Cael's entire ISU coaching career where there were little signs of development, then I have a few issues with the claim that he develops wrestlers better than anybody else.

I wouldn't know what those guys said. I stopped reading their stuff soon after I started.

I think Cael did fine developing at ISU, didn't he? He was a pretty young coach and has likely improved over time.

 

[maize_mechanic]

And this is how you develop your lightweights. Cael is taking recruiting way beyond the guys that actually score the points in the tournament.

 

[DonHawkeye]

Only shot they have someone who is gonna beat Lee down the road in the NLWC.

 

[Neo_Hawk]

Sorenson was ranked much higher then that; #27 overall at D1CW. http://www.d1collegewrestling.net/Top200_2013.html Considering Retherford just TF and Pinned his way through the NCAA tournament, it's safe to say he has developed just as much, if not more at PSU. This is undeniable.

With the steady flow of alternative facts and fake news over here, you guys are going to need permanent fact checkers soon.

You have a thread on BWI dedicated to the premise that Carl has created a secret strategy where his wrestlers don't have to cut weight, and no one else can figure it out. That's one of the reasons why he is so successful. Really? Alternate facts on THIS board? Apparently Carl is ahead of the curve on this and it's one of his tools to keep his wrestlers happy.

Wonder how Joseph felt about that strategy just last year having to drop out of tournaments for missing weight. That thread, like most of the threads over there, give Carl credit for almost anything good and positive that ever happens anywhere in the world, facts be damned, and you want to come over here and say we are fake news?

If you are on our board and don't agree with some of the things being said about your coach, well I can understand that, but your super classy fans, that support the team that would never act out or disrespect an opponent, cuz Carl is above that, should probably check themselves. The of amount of disrespectful statements about the Iowa coaching staff; personal attacks, derogatory statements and comments that cross the line of basic decency on BWI shows that, while you might have a great team and, I believe a great coach, your fans come no where near to the ideals that you all claim to possess. Not only does PSU not know how to win with dignity and respect, every day the percentage of posters who disrespect other programs on BWI grows and grows. Since you are a virtual lock on next years championship, by that time your posting fan base should be a stain on all of college wrestling, instead of just on your own team.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

I agree. I also think the continual presentation of development vs. recruiting is a false dichotomy. Bringing amazing talent into your room has got to be a huge component of developing wrestlers. When I think of "development", I picture Zain wrestling with Nolf, Molinaro, Gomez, Taylor, Brown, Joseph, Hall. Not Cael telling Zain how to finish a takedown.

You are *literally* calling recruiting "development" here.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

You love to beat this drum across all boards as often as you can, but the point you drive is a non sequitur.

Nobody can dispute that Cael is killing it in recruiting, but to imply that he hasn't proven, or cannot, or is subpar at, or is not among the cream of the crop at developing wrestlings (not sure which avenue you might take) because he is so good at recruiting is a logical fallacy. No correlation between the two.

Stolen statistics (not my research);

"In the top 25 of the D1CW.net rankings since the 2011 recruiting class, 51 #1 ranked wrestlers have had 142 opportunities to wrestle. 13 of those opportunities have ended in national championships, or 9.2%.

Cael and Co.'s #1 recruits claim 18 of those opportunities during that time, and 5 of the champions, or 27.8%."

So Cael is churning out National Champs from top 25 recruits who were #1 (weight class) at a rate of 3 to 1 to the rest of the country over the past six recruiting seasons. Didn't do national finalists, but unless there is an anomaly, it looks like the finalists ratio will be even greater.

So, you say, that's Top 25 and who cares about #1 in the weight class - we're talking about TOP TEN IN THEIR CLASS recruits here - big difference (although statistically it isn't a huge one).

"Of all top 10 recruits between 2011 and 2016, PSU % of All-Americans to Opportunities (Opportunity is defined as a non-RS year wrestled.) is 78%. PSU % of Champions to Opportunities is 30%.

The rest of the field is at 38% AA to Opportunity, and 8% Champs to Opportunity.

Cael & Co's AA rate for the past six years for top 10 recruits is over double the rest of the field and Champ rate is almost 4x the rest of the field.

So, yes, we all know that having the talent is a must to compete in this era, but either:

1) Cael & Co are just so much better at identifying which elite recruits are really likely to succeed and avoids most of the ones that may not.

or

2) Cael & Co can develop wrestlers pretty well. At least as well as the top staffs in the country.

or

3) a combination of the above.

But that's just my logic and some stolen stats.

BTW, this is not to say that the Brands are not great at developing wrestlers also. I think it's pretty much agreed upon by Hawk fans that they needed to step up recruiting, have recognized this and are attempting to accomplish that. And given equal talent to start with - right now it would be hard to say what would happen, the sample size is not really big enough for Iowa (not meant as a cut). Maybe we will know in another five years.

But to imply - as you always do - that Cael just kinda rolls them out there and things like 5 underclassmen including two frosh and two sophs will just win NCs on their own is pretty lame.

Didn't really want to post anything PSU related on this board this week and wasn't planning to, but the constant refrain just got the best of me.

Great post that everyone should read. It's a good example of how one can use numbers to try to make a point without any analysis behind it.

 

[theIowaHawk]

You are *literally* calling recruiting "development" here.

They do go hand in hand. Put the best wrestlers together and they will likely improve.

Same can be seen in basketball, but to a lesser extent.

This, unarguably, is the biggest success of Cael's last decade - improving his guys by having the best guys in the room.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

They do go hand in hand. Put the best wrestlers together and they will likely improve.

Same can be seen in basketball, but to a lesser extent.

This, unarguably, is the biggest success of Cael's last decade - improving his guys by having the best guys in the room.

Correct. His success is recruiting. This is non-controversial to anyone not from Penn State.

In some sense, his recruits are actually the developers! So he's not only recruiting talent, but also development skills! Wow!

 

[jvclark]

I'm honored you consider me a journalist.

I pulled that ranking from this article (already referenced multiple times on this board): https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/18008. Wasn't trying to create an alternate reality. Flo had Sorenson at #9 and Retherford at #1 for 149 in 2013.

And I agree Retherford has developed amazingly at PSU, but not sure how you quantify "just as much, if not more" given he was #1 to begin with. Sorenson goes from #9 to placing 4,2,3. Retherford from #1 to placing 5, 1, 1.

Thing is, if Retherford had redshirted as most freshman do under Cael, he would most likely have been 1,1,1 rather than 5,1,1?

No guarantees of course. Could have been on his way to being a four timer

 

[theIowaHawk]

Correct. His success is recruiting. This is non-controversial to anyone not from Penn State.

In some sense, his recruits are actually the developers! So he's not only recruiting talent, but also development skills! Wow!

I don't know why you feel so obligated to refuse his development, even here claiming it is his recruits doing it.

Pointless, simplisitic and pathetic.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

I don't know why you feel so obligated to refuse his development, even here claiming it is his recruits doing it.

Pointless, simplisitic and pathetic.

Link? I've never said Bael can't help a wrestler get better. It's not like I'm claiming he's a mediocre high school coach.

I'm saying that his otherworldly success at PSU is a function of recruiting. Period. He said as much himself.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Link? I've never said Bael can't help a wrestler get better. It's not like I'm claiming he's a mediocre high school coach.

I'm saying that his otherworldly success at PSU is a function of recruiting. Period. He said as much himself.

I'll respond by quoting just the most recent post of yours:

Correct. His success is recruiting. This is non-controversial to anyone not from Penn State.

In some sense, his recruits are actually the developers! So he's not only recruiting talent, but also development skills! Wow!

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

This, unarguably, is the biggest success of Cael's last decade - improving his guys by having the best guys in the room.

I'll respond by quoting just the most recent post of yours:

You said it too -- that the improvement in his guys has been driven by talent in the room.

Again, that all comes down to recruiting. You are agreeing with me.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Not enough facepalms, and the internet is a vast place.