Pistol Pete had no 3 point line. In true fairness it would be interesting if they were to take all his shots from beyond the arch and convert them into 2 and see apples to apples who would really be the leader.
Should Clark's record have an *?
- Thread starter stickman80
- Start date
Do any of the football records that have been broken when teams play 15 games as opposed back in the days of 11 or 12 game seasons have an asterisk? I say no asterisk but I really don’t care either…
I don’t believe it’s actually even an officially kept record, given that one is men’s and one is women’s. Sort of like career home runs in Japanese baseball and American. It’s just an interesting tidbit, and nothing more.
Hell no. Rules change. And if Clark took 40 shots a game like Pete did, she’d probably be around 5,000 points by now. Works both ways.
And he played in a still mostly white conference.
I’m a no. Both were great in different ways. Pete took more shots and shot more FTs than Caitlin did, 3-point line or no. Pete also played in a still partly segregated SEC.
We are so, so good at tearing things apart. Let them both be great and this is really nothing more than who scored the most points in NCAA history. If this was “just” a 4 yr/3-point line thing, the record wouldn’t have stood for 54 years.
We are so, so good at tearing things apart. Let them both be great and this is really nothing more than who scored the most points in NCAA history. If this was “just” a 4 yr/3-point line thing, the record wouldn’t have stood for 54 years.
I genuinely feel like this is one of the silliest, manufactured sports debates I can recall in a long time. First because of the myriad of differences between men’s and women’s basketball in general, but also between that era of basketball and today.
Caitlin Clark is one of the greatest women’s college players ever…full stop. Her impact on the sport is something that very few in history in their own sports can match imo.
Caitlin Clark is one of the greatest women’s college players ever…full stop. Her impact on the sport is something that very few in history in their own sports can match imo.
Can we segregate women’s basketball and let Caitlin shoot hundreds of more shots?
That would be fun to look at for all players if records are available, but I'm guessing they aren't.
With enough films to sample, you could come up with a reasonable approximation of the true numbers. For example if you scrutinize some of Pete's films and determine that on average he took 20% of his shots from beyond the arc, then you can apply that to his total made shot count.
You wouldn't want to change any records based on that, but it would still be interesting.
Even if you had all the numbers, not only did the distance of the 3-pt line change over time but - more importantly - the existence of the line changes behavior. For example, with no line, players wouldn't have taken a step back to be on the outside of the arc. They could have but there was no reason for doing so.
Hell no. The game was different back then, for reasons already mentioned ITT. I understand it's good tv content to spend time comparing them, but it's nothing more than mental masturbation. They are 2 of the greatest college basketball players of all time. Let it go at that.
Maravich's long-standing collegiate scoring record is particularly notable when three factors are taken into account:
- First, because of the NCAA rules that prohibited him from taking part in varsity competition during his first year as a student, Maravich was prevented from adding to his career record for a full quarter of his time at LSU. During this first year, Maravich scored 741 points in freshman competition.[7]
- Second, Maravich played before the advent of the three-point line. This significant difference has raised speculation regarding just how much higher his records would be, given his long-range shooting ability and how such a component might have altered his play. Writing for ESPN.com, Bob Carter stated, "Though Maravich played before [...] the 3-point shot was established, he loved gunning from long range."[10] It has been reported that former LSU coach Dale Brown charted every shot Maravich scored and concluded that, if his shots from three-point range had been counted as three points, Maravich's average would have totaled 57 points per game[11][12] and 12 three-pointers per game.
- Third, the shot clock had also not yet been instituted in NCAA play during Maravich's college career. (A time limit on ball possession speeds up play, mandates an additional number of field goal attempts, eliminates stalling, and increases the number of possessions throughout the game, all resulting in higher overall scoring.)[13]
Pete Maravich - Wikipedia
I've read in the past that someone - I think it was former LSU coach Dale Brown - reviewed film and game records/shooting charts from the season in which Maravich had his highest average ppg (just under 45), and indicated that he'd have averaged close to 57 ppg that year.
I've always been skeptical, as that would mean he averaged making twelve 3-pointers per game. That year he averaged 17 fg per game, and 11 ft per game.
This debate is comical. I love Pete and what he did to change the game. That said, he played for the only coach who'd let him jack up 40 shots per game. It's like they were making up for him sitting out his freshman season. Both are great, but the easiest comp is both scored a ton and even though she shoots 35 foot bombs... she shoots better % from field and the stripe. Had she had the volume he had how many more would she score?
I thought it would be interesting to compare their shooting percentages.
#23 Pete Maravich
Clark
#23 Pete Maravich
| Year | G | PCT. |
|---|---|---|
| 1967-68 | 26 | .422 |
| 1968-69 | 26 | .444 |
| 1969-70 | 31 | .447 |
| TOTALS | 83 | .438 |
Clark
| 2023-24 | Iowa | 46.5% |
| 2022-23 | Iowa | 47.3% |
| 2021-22 | Iowa | 45.2% |
| 2020-21 | Iowa | 47.2% |
Maravich only played 3 years with no 3 point line, but whatever.
We live in a world of recency bias
We live in a world of recency bias
Wow! Thanks for posting that.Maravich's long-standing collegiate scoring record is particularly notable when three factors are taken into account:
On the other hand, the Southeastern Conference's universities remained almost entirely segregated during Maravich's time on the LSU basketball team, significantly reducing the talent pool against which Maravich's record was earned. During this period, for example, Kentucky and Tennessee dominated SEC basketball, and their basketball teams remained all-white through the 1969-70 season.
- First, because of the NCAA rules that prohibited him from taking part in varsity competition during his first year as a student, Maravich was prevented from adding to his career record for a full quarter of his time at LSU. During this first year, Maravich scored 741 points in freshman competition.[7]
- Second, Maravich played before the advent of the three-point line. This significant difference has raised speculation regarding just how much higher his records would be, given his long-range shooting ability and how such a component might have altered his play. Writing for ESPN.com, Bob Carter stated, "Though Maravich played before [...] the 3-point shot was established, he loved gunning from long range."[10] It has been reported that former LSU coach Dale Brown charted every shot Maravich scored and concluded that, if his shots from three-point range had been counted as three points, Maravich's average would have totaled 57 points per game[11][12] and 12 three-pointers per game.
- Third, the shot clock had also not yet been instituted in NCAA play during Maravich's college career. (A time limit on ball possession speeds up play, mandates an additional number of field goal attempts, eliminates stalling, and increases the number of possessions throughout the game, all resulting in higher overall scoring.)[13]
Pete Maravich - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Pete will have the men's NCAA record at 3,667 points. Caitlin will have the women's NCAA record with something more than that. Grace Beyer holds the NAIA record - which surpasses both of them - with 3,961 points. And Pearl Moore is the top scorer in the women's game with 4,061 points over four years at AIAW Francis Marion. John Pierce played at NAIA Lipscombe and scored an unbelievable 4,230 points. He's the all-time, all-division top dog. If you compare across any two of those, you have to compare across all of them.
Yet another difference from yesteryear is that they played fewer games back then.
As a Carolina fan, I took note when Armando Bacot broke Billy Cunningham's UNC double-double record. Quite an accomplishment even with caveats.
The most notable caveat is that Cunningham got his 62 career double-doubles in just 69 games! Armando had played closer to 140 games when he broke that record.
As a Carolina fan, I took note when Armando Bacot broke Billy Cunningham's UNC double-double record. Quite an accomplishment even with caveats.
The most notable caveat is that Cunningham got his 62 career double-doubles in just 69 games! Armando had played closer to 140 games when he broke that record.
What I don't get is that people are ready to crap on Caitlin for breaking the record but we've litetally had hundreds of thousands of D1 basketball players in the last 54 years with favorable rules changes to scorers and NOBODY else could do it.
First, let me start by saying that I say no. As others have said, rules change and Pistol Pete also had some advantages over Clark playing in the era he did. Also, records are just fun for fans anyway.
However, that said, if you did the analysis you described, that still wouldn't be apples to apples. Without a line, Pistol Pete would have zero motivation to shoot from beyond the arc. If fact, it would likely have been considered a "bad shot" back then since a shorter shot is easier and carried the same value.
A lot of school and conference records will be made by the Covid 5-year players that may never be broken. That kid from Detroit Mercy came within a made three, I believe, of tying Pete.
Imagine how much hate CC would get if she shot as many times as him.
In the 50s most Big Ten teams played 9 games and only the champion went to a bowl game-the Rose Bowl.
I’m tired of the goal posts constantly changing or being moved for CC22 as soon as she breaks one scoring record, there is another that needs to be mentioned and broken or she isn’t the best. The level of competition at the D1 level in today’s game is the highest it has ever been and will only get better with little girls watching CC22 and all the other great girls currently playing the game and want to be like her, work hard to be better than her.
We are watching the Tiger Woods affect in motion and it will be interesting to see what happens in the next ten to twenty years with female bball players and what plays out across the country and globe with her inspiring so many little girls to be the best in trying to emulate her.
For those that scoff at her or call her a dude playing womens bball like some of haters to the west and northwest….
https://media1.tenor.com/m/ZeCbZmmNd-kAAAAd/****-off-hold-on.gif
We are watching the Tiger Woods affect in motion and it will be interesting to see what happens in the next ten to twenty years with female bball players and what plays out across the country and globe with her inspiring so many little girls to be the best in trying to emulate her.
For those that scoff at her or call her a dude playing womens bball like some of haters to the west and northwest….
https://media1.tenor.com/m/ZeCbZmmNd-kAAAAd/****-off-hold-on.gif
I believe his coach's name was Press Maravich. Whether that was part of the reason for him shooting so much, I don't know.
Wish this was the case with lil lick
There is a men’s record and a women’s record.
Do you think Clark would have the record if she played men’s college basketball?
I don’t see the point of the comparison.
Do you think Clark would have the record if she played men’s college basketball?
I don’t see the point of the comparison.
Which 3 point line - the old one or where they shoot from now?Maravich's long-standing collegiate scoring record is particularly notable when three factors are taken into account:
On the other hand, the Southeastern Conference's universities remained almost entirely segregated during Maravich's time on the LSU basketball team, significantly reducing the talent pool against which Maravich's record was earned. During this period, for example, Kentucky and Tennessee dominated SEC basketball, and their basketball teams remained all-white through the 1969-70 season.
- First, because of the NCAA rules that prohibited him from taking part in varsity competition during his first year as a student, Maravich was prevented from adding to his career record for a full quarter of his time at LSU. During this first year, Maravich scored 741 points in freshman competition.[7]
- Second, Maravich played before the advent of the three-point line. This significant difference has raised speculation regarding just how much higher his records would be, given his long-range shooting ability and how such a component might have altered his play. Writing for ESPN.com, Bob Carter stated, "Though Maravich played before [...] the 3-point shot was established, he loved gunning from long range."[10] It has been reported that former LSU coach Dale Brown charted every shot Maravich scored and concluded that, if his shots from three-point range had been counted as three points, Maravich's average would have totaled 57 points per game[11][12] and 12 three-pointers per game.
- Third, the shot clock had also not yet been instituted in NCAA play during Maravich's college career. (A time limit on ball possession speeds up play, mandates an additional number of field goal attempts, eliminates stalling, and increases the number of possessions throughout the game, all resulting in higher overall scoring.)[13]
Pete Maravich - Wikipedia
3-point line history, explained: Why NCAA rules were different for Pete Maravich, Lynette Woodard's scoring records | Sporting News
As Iowa superstar Caitlin Clark uses her 3-point prowess to rewrite the record books, learn more about the history of the shot in the college game.
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I get a kick out of the Caitlin haters going WHAT ABOUT PEARL MOORE.. like they cared about it before. Nevermind Caitlin would average about 75 points a game in D2.
CC really does bring out the stupid in people
CC really does bring out the stupid in people
Would Maravich hold the women's record if he had a vagina?
Pistol Pete shot nearly 2x as much per game during his college career.
Caitlin's points, efficiency AND assists pretty much ice her as THE greatest college BB player of all time.
Men, or women, at the D1 level.
CC has a decent shot at 3900 points before she is done.
Possibly 3 games in BTT and 3 more in NCAAs.
Too many differences in play (sex of athletes, 3 point scoring, number of games etc) to truly compare the 2 players. But Clark scored the most points at the DI basketball level, and I don't think she should be diminished in any shape or form.
Her true staying power will come if the WNBA has a surge in popularity when she starts playing next season. She could conceivably be the Larry Bird of the WNBA (Not sure who would be the Magic Johnson equivalent). The NBA didn't become the monster it is today until Bird/Magic started the excitement.
Maravich had amazing skills, but he was a ball hog who took almost twice as many shots per game as CC and had only about half as many assists.
In addition to being the all-time leading scorer, CC is sixth all-time in assists. No one else is in the Top 28 of both categories. She is going to be the first player to lead a major conference in points and assists in four straight seasons. She’s going to lead the nation in points for the third time and assists for the third time and this will be the second time she had led the nation in both categories in the same season.
PM couldn’t relate to his teammates and didn’t elevate his teams. He never led LSU to the NCAA Tournament and he never won an NBA playoff series as a regular starter. Atlanta reached the playoffs three times with PM (twice despite having a losing record) but got eliminated in the first round all three times. He never led New Orleans/Utah to the playoffs.
He finally won a playoff series in his final season, when Utah waived him and the Celtics signed him to be a role player off the bench during Larry Bird’s rookie season.
CC is beloved by her teammates and makes everyone around her a better player. She has led Iowa to new heights and nearly won a national championship.
In addition to being the all-time leading scorer, CC is sixth all-time in assists. No one else is in the Top 28 of both categories. She is going to be the first player to lead a major conference in points and assists in four straight seasons. She’s going to lead the nation in points for the third time and assists for the third time and this will be the second time she had led the nation in both categories in the same season.
PM couldn’t relate to his teammates and didn’t elevate his teams. He never led LSU to the NCAA Tournament and he never won an NBA playoff series as a regular starter. Atlanta reached the playoffs three times with PM (twice despite having a losing record) but got eliminated in the first round all three times. He never led New Orleans/Utah to the playoffs.
He finally won a playoff series in his final season, when Utah waived him and the Celtics signed him to be a role player off the bench during Larry Bird’s rookie season.
CC is beloved by her teammates and makes everyone around her a better player. She has led Iowa to new heights and nearly won a national championship.
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