Someone Explain how someone can think the Ukraine thing is OK?

[JRHawk2003]

How? He asked, if not extorted, a foreign govt to help go after a domestic political opponent.

I dont see why how anyone can defend this. It has ZERO to do with ideology. You sold your soul to this reality show jackass to get judges to keep the gays in line and outlaw abortion. What a sorry pyyhric victory.

I can respect small government as an honest ideological position. I do not agree, but I respect it as an honest intellectual position. This has nothing to do with that.

Finally, I do not want to see my country dragged through an ugly impeachment fight. If he had ANY decency he would resign. If Republican congressional leadership had ANY integrity they would pressure him to resign.

This is a sad sorry chapter in US History. I am sorry to be alive for it, I am glad my WWII Navy Vet grandpa never had to see it. Its shameful....SHAMEFUL.

 

[cigaretteman]

They don't care. Damn the constitution, damn the bill of rights, damn the separation of powers and the rule of law. As long as it pisses off liberals it's all good.

 

[The Tradition]

Asking a foreign leader to do something that might benefit a president politically?

It's pretty much happened in every administration ever....

 

[JRHawk2003]

Asking a foreign leader to do something that might benefit a president politically?

It's pretty much happened in every administration ever....

No. Not to investigate and dig dirt. Nope.

 

[cigaretteman]

Asking a foreign leader to do something that might benefit a president politically?

It's pretty much happened in every administration ever....

Now, see this is where I lose you.

 

[seam]

To say nothing about Ukraine needing the 400M $$ to try to protect their country from the invading Russians! It is reprehensible that Trump puts his own political needs ahead of the national security of Ukraine, which has an affect on US national security. I cannot imagine how deeply anxious European countries feel about their security.
Has Trump been Impeached yet?

 

[The Tradition]

Now, see this is where I lose you.

Going back to America’s early days, there have been occasional instances in which presidents would have been justified had they sought foreign investigations into political rivals. In 1804, Aaron Burr contacted the British government, apparently to peddle a plan for severing part of the United States to form a new country in western territory. In response, President Thomas Jefferson had Burr prosecuted for treason, and he was found not guilty. We can stipulate that Jefferson was excessively involved in the treason trial. But had he instead simply asked for Britain’s assistance in gathering more information about Burr’s involvement in this plot, that would have been entirely appropriate given the high stakes for the country.

This is true despite the fact Jefferson was seeking reelection at the time and Burr, an incorrigibly ambitious politician, might still have coveted the presidency. It was unlikely that Burr would have been a serious rival to Jefferson’s reelection; the Federalist Party, which opposed Jefferson, hated Burr for having slayed its hero, Alexander Hamilton. But Burr was still active politically and could not be discounted completely. Whatever the circumstances of the electoral rivalries at that moment—and campaigns back then were, of course, very different from today—Jefferson as president would have been acting responsibly if he had requested Britain’s assistance in the investigation of Burr.

For a more recent example, look to 1968, when Richard Nixon was the Republican nominee attempting to wrest the White House from Democratic hands. During the campaign, Nixon went so far as to encourage an emissary, Anna Chennault,to intervene with President Lyndon B. Johnson’s peace talks to end the Vietnam War. Johnson by then had dropped out of the Democratic primary, but his vice president, Hubert Humphrey, would end up the party’s nominee—making Nixon, in effect, a political rival. Even so, it would have been completely legitimate if LBJ, who did get wind of what Chennault was doing, had decided to ask South Vietnam for information about whether Nixon was directly involved in this ploy.

Sometimes, there is an inevitable tension between the president’s obligation to defend the nation as commander in chief and the president’s role as a candidate for reelection. But presidents, unlike subordinates, cannot recuse themselves from their commander in chief responsibilities. Rarely, but occasionally, acting in good faith as commander in chief might require an incumbent president to seek foreign assistance in pursuing an investigation of a former vice president—like Burr and Nixon—who is opposing the president’s reelection. As long as the president acts in good faith, critics reasonably can question the soundness of the president’s decisions, but there would be no grounds for impeachment and removal of office.

Read more:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/06/trump-ukraine-investigate-rival-229341

 

[JRHawk2003]

Going back to America’s early days, there have been occasional instances in which presidents would have been justified had they sought foreign investigations into political rivals. In 1804, Aaron Burr contacted the British government, apparently to peddle a plan for severing part of the United States to form a new country in western territory. In response, President Thomas Jefferson had Burr prosecuted for treason, and he was found not guilty. We can stipulate that Jefferson was excessively involved in the treason trial. But had he instead simply asked for Britain’s assistance in gathering more information about Burr’s involvement in this plot, that would have been entirely appropriate given the high stakes for the country.

This is true despite the fact Jefferson was seeking reelection at the time and Burr, an incorrigibly ambitious politician, might still have coveted the presidency. It was unlikely that Burr would have been a serious rival to Jefferson’s reelection; the Federalist Party, which opposed Jefferson, hated Burr for having slayed its hero, Alexander Hamilton. But Burr was still active politically and could not be discounted completely. Whatever the circumstances of the electoral rivalries at that moment—and campaigns back then were, of course, very different from today—Jefferson as president would have been acting responsibly if he had requested Britain’s assistance in the investigation of Burr.

For a more recent example, look to 1968, when Richard Nixon was the Republican nominee attempting to wrest the White House from Democratic hands. During the campaign, Nixon went so far as to encourage an emissary, Anna Chennault,to intervene with President Lyndon B. Johnson’s peace talks to end the Vietnam War. Johnson by then had dropped out of the Democratic primary, but his vice president, Hubert Humphrey, would end up the party’s nominee—making Nixon, in effect, a political rival. Even so, it would have been completely legitimate if LBJ, who did get wind of what Chennault was doing, had decided to ask South Vietnam for information about whether Nixon was directly involved in this ploy.

Sometimes, there is an inevitable tension between the president’s obligation to defend the nation as commander in chief and the president’s role as a candidate for reelection. But presidents, unlike subordinates, cannot recuse themselves from their commander in chief responsibilities. Rarely, but occasionally, acting in good faith as commander in chief might require an incumbent president to seek foreign assistance in pursuing an investigation of a former vice president—like Burr and Nixon—who is opposing the president’s reelection. As long as the president acts in good faith, critics reasonably can question the soundness of the president’s decisions, but there would be no grounds for impeachment and removal of office.

Read more:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/06/trump-ukraine-investigate-rival-229341

Ever have an original thought?

Do you have any personal integrity at all?

 

[The Tradition]

Ever have an original thought?

Do you have any personal integrity at all?

This entire thing is just another nothing burger in the wake of all the other nothing burgers that have gone before.

The Russians interference thing didn't work, Stormy didn't work, the parade of women who were supposedly raped didn't work, Billy Bush didn't work, kids in cages didn't work, Comey didn't work, Mueller didn't work, so now Trump is being impeached for the Ukraine thing. That's not going to work, either.

HOWEVER, the entire, never-ending wave of crap that didn't work might create enough Trump fatigue that it'll work at the ballot box a year from now.

So, soldier on, Trump-haters!

 

[Nat Algren]

To say nothing about Ukraine needing the 400M $$ to try to protect their country from the invading Russians! It is reprehensible that Trump puts his own political needs ahead of the national security of Ukraine, which has an affect on US national security. I cannot imagine how deeply anxious European countries feel about their security.
Has Trump been Impeached yet?

Ukraine is entitled to our tax dollars? Says who? Show me where in the Constitution foreign aid its lawful.

 

[IowaHawkeyeFBnBB4Life]

Asking a foreign leader to do something that might benefit a president politically?

It's pretty much happened in every administration ever....

It’s ok if Democrats Do it.

 

[Funky Bunch]

Liberals heads spinning? If yes, then it is good.

 

[mnole03]

This entire thing is just another nothing burger in the wake of all the other nothing burgers that have gone before. The Russians thing didn't work, Stormy didn't work, the parade of women who were supposedly raped didn't work, Billy Bush didn't work, kids in cages didn't work, Comey didn't work, Mueller didn't work, so now Trump is being impeached for the Ukraine thing. That's not going to work, either.

HOWEVER, the entire, never-ending wave of crap that didn't work might create enough Trump fatigue that it'll work at the ballot box a year from now.

So, soldier on, Trump-haters!

It’s a bribe. Trump wouldn’t release the aid unless he personally got something for it. I’d say this is a no-brainer, but the no-brain crowd is fighting this pretty hard.

 

[Bonerfarts]

A president has never attempted to extort a country using congressional aide for an investigation into a political rival. There is no comparison in history. Any attempts at equivalency are pure partisan complicity.

 

[Nat Algren]

This entire thing is just another nothing burger in the wake of all the other nothing burgers that have gone before. The Russians thing didn't work, Stormy didn't work, the parade of women who were supposedly raped didn't work, Billy Bush didn't work, kids in cages didn't work, Comey didn't work, Mueller didn't work, so now Trump is being impeached for the Ukraine thing. That's not going to work, either.

HOWEVER, the entire, never-ending wave of crap that didn't work might create enough Trump fatigue that it'll work at the ballot box a year from now.

So, soldier on, Trump-haters!

You do not understand. The Ukrainian born Vindman, is now expected to be directing foreign policy and and not follow orders of those duly elected.

 

[The Tradition]

It’s a bribe. Trump wouldn’t release the aid unless he personally got something for it. I’d say this is a no-brainer, but the no-brain crowd is fighting this pretty hard.

Actually, it's the opposite of a bribe.

 

[tumorboy]

How? He asked, if not extorted, a foreign govt to help go after a domestic political opponent.

I dont see why how anyone can defend this. It has ZERO to do with ideology. You sold your soul to this reality show jackass to get judges to keep the gays in line and outlaw abortion. What a sorry pyyhric victory.

I can respect small government as an honest ideological position. I do not agree, but I respect it as an honest intellectual position. This has nothing to do with that.

Finally, I do not want to see my country dragged through an ugly impeachment fight. If he had ANY decency he would resign. If Republican congressional leadership had ANY integrity they would pressure him to resign.

This is a sad sorry chapter in US History. I am sorry to be alive for it, I am glad my WWII Navy Vet grandpa never had to see it. Its shameful....SHAMEFUL.

Trump is what is best for America. No price is too high to pay for him to remain in office and continue the MAGA movement ordained by God.
Once you have established a goal so necessary. Anything done to achieve it doesn't matter.

 

[mnole03]

Actually, it's the opposite of a bribe.

Trump wanted the bribe.

 

[The Tradition]

Trump wanted the bribe.

Trump wanted to root out corruption.

Do you really think that the Ukrainians weren't buying influence by putting Hunter Biden into a fake board member job paying $50,000 a month?

No matter how you spin this to catch Trump, Biden is caught in the trap, too.

 

[mnole03]

Trump wanted to root out corruption.

Do you really think that the Ukrainians weren't buying influence by putting Hunter Biden into a fake board member job paying $50,000 a month?

No matter how you spin this to catch Trump, Biden is caught in the trap, too.

Trump wanted the Ukrainians to announce that Biden was the subject of a criminal investigation to help in his own reelection. He made aid to Ukraine contingent on it.

Trump self-deals and this time he crossed the line. Sorry your guy asked for a bribe to do his job.

 

[The Tradition]

Trump wanted the Ukrainians to announce that Biden was the subject of a criminal investigation to help in his own reelection. He made aid to Ukraine contingent on it.

Trump self-deals and this time he crossed the line. Sorry your guy asked for a bribe to do his job.

You're going to be really disappointed when this doesn't turn out like you think it will.

As usual.

 

[mnole03]

You're going to be really disappointed when this doesn't turn out like you think it will.

As usual.

I think he’ll be impeached for bribery, and the Senate will let him off because they’re cowards.

 

[Bonerfarts]

Ukraine is entitled to our tax dollars? Says who? Show me where in the Constitution foreign aid its lawful.

Says congress when it passed. If Congress rules that paying a foreign government is in the best interest for US security it falls under section 8. If you don’t like it, move to Russia already.

Article I, Section 8

The Text

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

 

[RocknRollface]

How? He asked, if not extorted, a foreign govt to help go after a domestic political opponent.

I dont see why how anyone can defend this. It has ZERO to do with ideology. You sold your soul to this reality show jackass to get judges to keep the gays in line and outlaw abortion. What a sorry pyyhric victory.

I can respect small government as an honest ideological position. I do not agree, but I respect it as an honest intellectual position. This has nothing to do with that.

Finally, I do not want to see my country dragged through an ugly impeachment fight. If he had ANY decency he would resign. If Republican congressional leadership had ANY integrity they would pressure him to resign.

This is a sad sorry chapter in US History. I am sorry to be alive for it, I am glad my WWII Navy Vet grandpa never had to see it. Its shameful....SHAMEFUL.

Honestly, I have a problem with giving other countries our tax money period. We run at a net negative. Its absolutely fuking insane to be borrowing money to give it away. Let them borrow their own money.

I don't have a problem with Trump asking Ukraine to investigate a multitude of potential crimes and corruption commited in their country by our former government officials.

Biden doesn't get a pass simply because hes running for president.

 

[Bonerfarts]

You're going to be really disappointed when this doesn't turn out like you think it will.

As usual.

Everyone expects the house to pass impeachment but for the GOP in the senate to shun their duties and vote against impeachment, enabling Trump to abuse power. Hope I’m disappointed.

 

[The Tradition]

Everyone expects the house to pass impeachment but for the GOP in the senate to shun their duties and vote against impeachment, enabling Trump to abuse power. Hope I’m disappointed.

Meanwhile, the Durham investigation has turned into a criminal probe... tick tock....

 

[mthawkeyes]

This entire thing is just another nothing burger in the wake of all the other nothing burgers that have gone before.

The Russians interference thing didn't work, Stormy didn't work, the parade of women who were supposedly raped didn't work, Billy Bush didn't work, kids in cages didn't work, Comey didn't work, Mueller didn't work, so now Trump is being impeached for the Ukraine thing. That's not going to work, either.

HOWEVER, the entire, never-ending wave of crap that didn't work might create enough Trump fatigue that it'll work at the ballot box a year from now.

So, soldier on, Trump-haters!

If your point is to demonstrate how low the MAGAs are willing to go to get some judges and piss off liberals, your point is well taken.

 

[JRHawk2003]

This entire thing is just another nothing burger in the wake of all the other nothing burgers that have gone before.

The Russians interference thing didn't work, Stormy didn't work, the parade of women who were supposedly raped didn't work, Billy Bush didn't work, kids in cages didn't work, Comey didn't work, Mueller didn't work, so now Trump is being impeached for the Ukraine thing. That's not going to work, either.

HOWEVER, the entire, never-ending wave of crap that didn't work might create enough Trump fatigue that it'll work at the ballot box a year from now.

So, soldier on, Trump-haters!

But you think its OK to do that? Neither example from the article you had was a sitting US President, and Aaron Burr? Really? Weeeeaaaakkkkk

I ask again; Do you have any personal integrity or ethics?

 

[JRHawk2003]

Honestly, I have a problem with giving other countries our tax money period. We run at a net negative. Its absolutely fuking insane to be borrowing money to give it away. Let them borrow their own money.

I don't have a problem with Trump asking Ukraine to investigate a multitude of potential crimes and corruption commited in their country by our former government officials.

Biden doesn't get a pass simply because hes running for president.

Do you have any personal integrity?

 

[The Tradition]

But you think its OK to do that? Neither example from the article you had was a sitting US President, and Aaron Burr? Really? Weeeeaaaakkkkk

I ask again; Do you have any personal integrity or ethics?

If your political rival's family was being enriched in order to curry favor with said political rival, shouldn't that be investigated?

 

[Nat Algren]

Says congress when it passed. If Congress rules that paying a foreign government is in the best interest for US security it falls under section 8. If you don’t like it, move to Russia already.

Article I, Section 8

The Text

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Are you a pothead, Focker? You've been smelling too many of your own farts. Where in effing hell does it say Ukraine is our common defense? How in bloody hell could you come to that determination? Kennedy rightly kicked Krushchev out of our hemisphere during the Cuban missile crisis when Soviet nukes were 1,100 miles from Washington. But, Moscow shouldn't be upset with NATO missiles 735 miles from them? Lay off the farts Dude.

 

[JRHawk2003]

If your political rival's family was being enriched in order to curry favor with said political rival, shouldn't that be investigated?

No. Not by that country and certainly not under the threat of denying aid.

 

[noleclone2]

 

[The Tradition]

No. Not by that country and certainly not under the threat of denying aid.

Biden did the EXACT SAME THING while serving as Vice President. He's on video bragging about doing it.

 

[ConvenientParking]

If your political rival's family was being enriched in order to curry favor with said political rival, shouldn't that be investigated?

This is a bullshit excuse Trad. A pure bullshit excuse. Trump doesn't GAF what happened with Bidens in Ukraine. If he did, there are proper channels for investigating from our end. But Trump didn't care about that even a little bit. He wanted a public announcement that Hunter Biden was being investigated. That's it. And his method was extortion. Plain and simple. Stop being dishonest about what happened.

 

[ConvenientParking]

Biden did the EXACT SAME THING while serving as Vice President. He's on video bragging about doing it.

To advance US/NATO interests, not Biden's political interests. You're dishonest or dumb if you don't see the difference. There is a major difference.

 

[The Tradition]

This is a bullshit excuse Trad. A pure bullshit excuse. Trump doesn't GAF what happened with Bidens in Ukraine. If he did, there are proper channels for investigating from our end. But Trump didn't care about that even a little bit. He wanted a public announcement that Hunter Biden was being investigated. That's it. And his method was extortion. Plain and simple. Stop being dishonest about what happened.

ex·tor·tion
/ikˈstôrSH(ə)n/
noun
the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

Trump was withholding money; not obtaining. So, that's not extortion.

 

[Nat Algren]

Biden did the EXACT SAME THING while serving as Vice President. He's on video bragging about doing it.

Not ONLY that. He (Biden) was outted in Victoria Nuland's "F the EU" phone call...caught on tape, in the illegal overthrow of the Ukrainian elected government.

 

[The Tradition]

To advance US/NATO interests, not Biden's political interests. You're dishonest or dumb if you don't see the difference. There is a major difference.

Really... what about Biden family personal interests vis-a-vis Hunter's sweet deal?

 

[Nat Algren]

To advance US/NATO interests, not Biden's political interests. You're dishonest or dumb if you don't see the difference. There is a major difference.

Right. Because Hunter Biden and Devon Archer had zero interest in Burisma. JFC!