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Sovereign Citizen Catches the Dead

Hawki97

HR Legend
Dec 16, 2001
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Iowa City, IA
These people are idiots.


Funeral services were held Sunday for a driver shot by police earlier this month after he refused to exit his vehicle, espoused sovereign citizen rhetoric and seemingly reached for a weapon during a traffic stop.

Driver Chase Allan can be seen arguing with Farmington, Utah, police over the false license plate fixed to the back of the vehicle. In recently released dash cam footage, Allan claimed he doesn’t need a drivers license or vehicle registration.

Allan can clearly be seen wearing a gun on his hip, though it is unclear whether Allan reached for the weapon during the confrontation. Chase followed an ideology of “state nationals” movement, which is just another patch of the sovereign citizen quilt, according to the Daily Beast:

The traffic stop that led to Allan’s death began when police noticed his car’s unofficial license plates, which read “Utah, American State Citizen” and “Notice, Private Automobile Not For Hire.”

Body camera footage shows an officer asking Allan to present a license and registration. “I don’t need registration and I don’t answer questions,” Allan said. After a few minutes of back-and-forth, Allan eventually handed over his passport, but immediately claimed that the person in the passport (Chase Allan) was not him. Subscribers to sovereign citizen beliefs sometimes claim that they are separate legal entities from the people named in official documents like passports and birth certificates.

“That is not me. That is a piece of plastic paper,” Allan told the officer.

“So you have a fraudulent passport?” the officer asked. He asked Allan to get out of the car. Allan refused, telling police they would “have an issue” if they tried to remove him from the car. A second police officer opened the car door, an escalation Farmington Police Chief Eric Johnsen defended as appropriate.

“That escalation of force, from verbal to hands-on, in my opinion was absolutely reasonable and appropriate,” Johnson said in a Wednesday press conference

Police opened Allan’s car door when he refused the comply with direction. He seemingly reached for the side of his body where his gun was located in its holster, but it’s unclear what he was reaching for. One of the officers shouted “Gun! Gun!” and he and five of his fellow officer opened fire, shooting Allan several times in the chest. The gun was later found on the floor of the passenger side of the vehicle. Allan was taken to a local hospital where he subsequently died, the Salt Lake City Tribune reports.

Allan’s mother was also pulled over for having an expired license plate in 2022. That run-in with police resulted in an ongoing federal lawsuit, Daily Beast reports:

The stop began when an officer noticed Diane Killian-Allan’s car registration was expired, the Salt Lake Tribune reported. Killian-Allan, who was driving an uninsured car with an expired license, claimed the officer had no legal right to stop her.

Killian-Allan, who did not return The Daily Beast’s request for comment, later filed a federal lawsuit against Farmington Police over the traffic stop. The suit, which is ongoing, is full of references to the sovereign citizen movement. At points, Killian-Allan refers to herself as a “Private Citizen of Utah ‘state’” and spells her name as “Diane;. Killian-Allan.” (Followers of sovereign citizen teachings sometimes add extra punctuation into their names in the mistaken belief that it will distinguish them from the person named in their legal documents.)

Like her son last month, Killian-Allan offered a police officer her passport during the 2022 traffic stop. In her lawsuit, she explains that she did so because she believed she did not need a license while “traveling,” which some sovereign citizens claim is different from driving.

“While traveling I was not operating under a ‘driver license’ and provided a passport,” the lawsuit reads.

Funny these anti-government extremists think that federal laws and courts don’t apply to them but are more than happy to gum up our court system with this nonsense.

Sovereign citizens often operate under the mistaken belief that because they are “traveling” in their vehicles and not engaging in commerce, the state has no right to even regulate their free movement on publicly funded roads. This assumption is based of a very flawed understanding of both the U.S. Constitution and state laws regulating motor vehicles.

Indeed, you do not need a license to use public roads — but operating a motor vehicle is an entirely different story. It’s in state’s and public’s interest to regulate who can use motor vehicles. It would be like if a warehouse worker demanded the right to use the forklift, despite not being forklift certified, because of clause in his employment agreement mentioned possible forklift duties.

Followers of the confusing idealogy often have license plates much like the one Allan was using and they are freely available to purchase online. Some of them even look pretty good, even if they are all obviously fake.

Killian-Allan lost her son, and Allan lost his life — that fact is a true tragedy. And while personal responsibility is important, I can’t help but feel a little bad for folks led astray by these types of movements. Police are trained on how to handle sovereign citizens; however, several high-profile incidents with followers of the ideology have made cops a little more twitchy. Like this 2018 incident of a sovereign citizen killed during a shoot out with police after he was reported for letting a three-year-old drive a car. Or 2021, when sovereign citizens shut down a six-lane freeway in Massachusetts for hours because in their world, they were above the law.

 
Driver is a moron but didn't deserve to be roadside executed by police for a traffic stop.

Tough call on these for me. Telling the police you're going to "have an issue" if they touch you after you've been belligerent, un-cooperative, showed you live in la-la sovereign citizen land, and hipping a weapon would make me pretty uneasy. I guess you could call in the entire cavalry, surround him at gunpoint, and negotiate him out...but that probably ends in a shoot out for these Bundy types.
 
It’s mental illness

It definitely is. If the R's ever actually did something about the much derided "mental illness" they claim is behind all shootings and not the gun itself, the questionnaire they develop should have question #1 be: "Are you involved in the sovereign citizen movement or a state militia?" If the answer is yes - confiscation. You're mentally ill.
 
Tough call on these for me. Telling the police you're going to "have an issue" if they touch you after you've been belligerent, un-cooperative, showed you live in la-la sovereign citizen land, and hipping a weapon would make me pretty uneasy. I guess you could call in the entire cavalry, surround him at gunpoint, and negotiate him out...but that probably ends in a shoot out for these Bundy types.
They gave him like 15 seconds to comply. Then immediately went to force.

I don't understand the unwillingness to de-escalate. Where they late for lunch or something?

There were plenty of cops there. They could have spent a minute or two more trying to get him to exit the vehicle voluntarily.

From a legal - and perhaps even training exercise perspective - I'm sure it is a justified shooting. That said, it seems far, far too aggressive for a traffic stop about a non-standard license plate. This kid is dead, simply because he's a deluded moron who got brainwashed by right wing politics.
 
They gave him like 15 seconds to comply. Then immediately went to force.

I don't understand the unwillingness to de-escalate. Where they late for lunch or something?

There were plenty of cops there. They could have spent a minute or two more trying to get him to exit the vehicle voluntarily.

From a legal - and perhaps even training exercise perspective - I'm sure it is a justified shooting. That said, it seems far, far too aggressive for a traffic stop about a non-standard license plate. This kid is dead, simply because he's a deluded moron who got brainwashed by right wing politics.

Well, he did have almost five minutes to not be a douche-nozzle and resolve this quickly. If he'd listened to the righties saying "just comply" he'd be alive. He must have missed that part.
 
Driver is a moron but didn't deserve to be roadside executed by police for a traffic stop.
He chose poorly. If it hadn't been in this incident, it would have been in another. He escalated at every turn, and he's too far down the sovereign citizen rabbit hole. I only feel bad for the cop in this one. He knew he had a sovereign citizen nut from the start.
 
I just can't believe this at face value without video evidence. That said, these SC's are idiots.

If you watch the video frame by frame he drops his phone and starts to reach to his right hip when they start pulling on the window. The gun ended up out of his holster and on the floor of the driver's seat after the shooting ended.

Whether he removed it or it fell out, I have no idea.
Whether he was reaching for the gun or his seat belt, I have no idea.
Whether he intended harm or not, I have no idea.

I do know that he acted like an idiot and this falls under FAFO for me.
 
Well, he did have almost five minutes to not be a douche-nozzle and resolve this quickly. If he'd listened to the righties saying "just comply" he'd be alive. He must have missed that part.
Again, the dead guy was a moron. He did not comply with police orders. He also was driving around with a gun on his hip.

I just don't think stupidity warrants being shot to death for not getting out of your car fast enough for the cops.

As the cops themselves say on the video, they don't know if the guy even reached for his gun or shot. But just the possibility that he could have apparently justifies putting five bullets into his torso and head. I fundamentally disagree with that approach.
 
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Again, the dead guy was a moron. He did not comply with police orders. He also was driving around with a gun on his hip.

I just don't think stupidity warrants being shot to death for not getting out of your car fast enough for the cops.

As the cops themselves say on the video, they don't know if the guy even reached for his gun or shot. But just the possibility that he could have apparently justifies putting five bullets into his torso and head. I fundamentally disagree with that approach.

I don't necessarily disagree with the bolded. But I also fundamentally understand that policing in America trends towards this type of situation in the event you choose to act this way. This fella did not choose the way that I would go about trying to reform it
 
It's hard for me to tell if he reached for his gun but their reaction does seem like an over reaction to simply seeing the gun.

It hurts of course that instead of telling the officers that he had a gun so they could disarm him for everyone's safety he instead took the "law doesn't apply to me" attitude and allowed the officers to be surprised by the gun.
 
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I have little pity for this idiot. These so-called “sovereign citizens” simply don’t want to pay taxes, but drive on public roads and use every other benefit the rest of of us use and take for granted on a daily basis.

He and his type likely hold Timothy McVeigh on a pedestal after he killed 168 innocent men, women and children.

Now that he’s dead, his non-sovereign family is suddenly going to become sovereign and want to use the court system to sue the police.
 
I don't necessarily disagree with the bolded. But I also fundamentally understand that policing in America trends towards this type of situation in the event you choose to act this way. This fella did not choose the way that I would go about trying to reform it
Probably an unpopular take, but I find the notion - oft repeated - that "the most important job of a police officer is to go home safely at night" to be a mistake.

It is a job with the inherent risk of violence. You WILL be in unpredictable, violent situations. If you go into that profession, you need to know that your job carries that risk.

I feel that the police should be the LAST ones to escalate to lethal force, but it seems more and more that the go-to at ANY sign of even the possibility of maybe danger --- i.e. a guy sitting in a car with a holstered gun --- can be met with overwhelming and lethal force immediately. I just fundamentally disagree with that.

In this instance, had the police not opened the door and physically grabbed the guy, there is little indication that the situation would have ramped up the way it did. You could sense the cops getting frustrated and deciding it was time to end the interaction immediately. That decision is ultimately what led to the altercation and the fatal shooting. Over a LICENSE PLATE issue. I will just never agree with that result.
 
f*ck around and find out. I could care less about people like this. This is 100% on the SC idiot.

Eric Cartman Price GIF by South Park
 
Probably an unpopular take, but I find the notion - oft repeated - that "the most important job of a police officer is to go home safely at night" to be a mistake.

It is a job with the inherent risk of violence. You WILL be in unpredictable, violent situations. If you go into that profession, you need to know that your job carries that risk.

I feel that the police should be the LAST ones to escalate to lethal force, but it seems more and more that the go-to at ANY sign of even the possibility of maybe danger --- i.e. a guy sitting in a car with a holstered gun --- can be met with overwhelming and lethal force immediately. I just fundamentally disagree with that.

In this instance, had the police not opened the door and physically grabbed the guy, there is little indication that the situation would have ramped up the way it did. You could sense the cops getting frustrated and deciding it was time to end the interaction immediately. That decision is ultimately what led to the altercation and the fatal shooting. Over a LICENSE PLATE issue. I will just never agree with that result.

While I don’t agree completely with your stance, I understand it. However, I’ll repeat that how this fella went about trying to reform police interactions and escalations is not how I would have gone about it in today’s environment. The outcome is not a surprise.
 
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I have little pity for this idiot. These so-called “sovereign citizens” simply don’t want to pay taxes, but drive on public roads and use every other benefit the rest of of us use and take for granted on a daily basis.

He and his type likely hold Timothy McVeigh on a pedestal after he killed 168 innocent men, women and children.

Now that he’s dead, his non-sovereign family is suddenly going to become sovereign and want to use the court system to sue the police.

What’s worse is he’ll probably be a martyr for the cause of the loonies.
 
While I don’t agree completely with your stance, I understand it. However, I’ll repeat that how this fella went about trying to reform police interactions and escalations is not how I would have gone about it in today’s environment. The outcome is not a surprise.
Oh yeah, like I said --- the guy who got shot was a complete and utter moron and could have avoided the entire situation by not acting like an asshat. And I have zero problem with the outcome being a "justified" shooting.

I just wish we didn't live in a society where a semi-regular outcome of traffic stops is a shooting death of either a cop or a driver. It's sad and tragic and unnecessary.
 
Is the guy a moron? Yes
Could he have prevented himself from dying by complying? Yes
Is this a tragic loss for society? No
Was this shooting justified by the current use of force protocols? I'm sure it is
Did this have to end with the person being killed? No, probably not

Seen this play out a number of times. Hell, you could probably make a similar case for the Babbit person from 1/6.
 
Is the guy a moron? Yes
Could he have prevented himself from dying by complying? Yes
Is this a tragic loss for society? No
Was this shooting justified by the current use of force protocols? I'm sure it is
Did this have to end with the person being killed? No, probably not

Seen this play out a number of times. Hell, you could probably make a similar case for the Babbit person from 1/6.

You were all good until that last sentence. Dumb bitch is right where she deserves to be.
 
So often people's perceptions of shootings are tainted by politics.

That's unfortunate. Just be consistent.
Black or white, liberal or conservative = I don’t care. When some asshole places himself/herself above the law and refuses to comply I get a sick jolly at seeing them find out how wrong (and mortal) they are.
 
So often people's perceptions of shootings are tainted by politics.

That's unfortunate. Just be consistent.

Maybe for you.

I am comfortable with a "protestor" the summer of 2021 getting shot if they've got a business owner with a gun inside pointed at them warning them that they fear for their safety and the "protestor" continues to kick through the window.

I am comfortable with a "protestor" that has entered the capitol on Jan 6 getting shot if they've got an LEO with a gun inside pointed at them warning them that fear for their safety and the "protestor" continues to kick through the window.

Now that's consistent. Be better dumb ass. You're getting worse and worse at your little game - or you're just getting lazy. Either way, it's a bad look bub.
 
Oh yeah, like I said --- the guy who got shot was a complete and utter moron and could have avoided the entire situation by not acting like an asshat. And I have zero problem with the outcome being a "justified" shooting.

I just wish we didn't live in a society where a semi-regular outcome of traffic stops is a shooting death of either a cop or a driver. It's sad and tragic and unnecessary.

There are over 30 million traffic stops each year. So the stops that result in a death are a rarity.
 
Oh yeah, like I said --- the guy who got shot was a complete and utter moron and could have avoided the entire situation by not acting like an asshat. And I have zero problem with the outcome being a "justified" shooting.

I just wish we didn't live in a society where a semi-regular outcome of traffic stops is a shooting death of either a cop or a driver. It's sad and tragic and unnecessary.
Semi-regular? Millions of interactions with police don’t end up like this one.
 
Semi-regular? Millions of interactions with police don’t end up like this one.
There are over 30 million traffic stops each year. So the stops that result in a death are a rarity.
True or False: The United States leads the entire world in deaths caused by police during traffic stop per capita?


Since 2017, more than 800 people have been killed after being pulled over in the US, according to statistics from the Mapping Police Violence database.

Last year, traffic stops led to roughly 7% of all police killings nationwide.

I don't care if there are 30 million traffic stops --- 100-plus of them a year resulting in a shooting death is absurd. Full stop.
 
True or False: The United States leads the entire world in deaths caused by police during traffic stop per capita?


Since 2017, more than 800 people have been killed after being pulled over in the US, according to statistics from the Mapping Police Violence database.

Last year, traffic stops led to roughly 7% of all police killings nationwide.

I don't care if there are 30 million traffic stops --- 100-plus of them a year resulting in a shooting death is absurd. Full stop.

I just think that in a heavily-armed country, one fatality every 300,000 stops would be difficult to improve upon. Every traffic stop, no matter how seemingly routine, can turn into a life-and-death situation for the police office in a heartbeat.
 
True or False: The United States leads the entire world in deaths caused by police during traffic stop per capita?


Since 2017, more than 800 people have been killed after being pulled over in the US, according to statistics from the Mapping Police Violence database.

Last year, traffic stops led to roughly 7% of all police killings nationwide.

I don't care if there are 30 million traffic stops --- 100-plus of them a year resulting in a shooting death is absurd. Full stop.

How many other countries are so heavily armed as we are? Maybe we have bad policing and that's why our traffic stops end with relatively higher fatalities. Or maybe our police encounter a much higher relative armed motorists that result in "justified" fatalities? Maybe mixture?

Some of that just may be a "cost of doing business" in terms of being a heavily armed society. Similar to mass shootings are a cost of our gun freedoms.
 
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