This is absolutely a contributor to the problem IMHO. We don't live in Mayberry anymore. We've got nearly 400 million guns in this country and a lot of people done lost their minds. It's a dangerous cocktail to try and mix for the police I'm sure.
Sovereign Citizen Catches the Dead
- Thread starter Hawki97
- Start date
This is absolutely a contributor to the problem IMHO. We don't live in Mayberry anymore. We've got nearly 400 million guns in this country and a lot of people done lost their minds. It's a dangerous cocktail to try and mix for the police I'm sure.
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And that is exactly the point I was trying to make.
It is a tragedy that gun culture is so strong in the United States that HUNDREDS of traffic stops end up in shooting deaths. That is effed up. And frankly, a pretty sad look for America.
Tragedy is a genre of story in which a hero is brought down by his/her own flaws, usually by ordinary human flaws.
Not a hero. Not a tragedy.
I once had a parent claim sovereign citizen status and then directed me to apply to the Queen of England for the funds to satisfy their child's school fees.
They are all nutters.
They are all nutters.
hot take: a good portion of these young males that get taken out by the police relish the confrontation
the prevalence & possibility of weapons make these encounters about 1000x more likely to end this way than if we lived in a society without the constant threat of lethal force by civilians.
I'm not sure how you get around some of these situations.
A good friend of mine has an adult stepson who has been led to believe that sovereign citizenship is a valid defense for just about anything you want. I told him bluntly that if he adhered to these proposed practices that it would end badly for him some day and not a single person who "educated" him about this hog slop BS would be around to defend him or assist him in anyway. Frankly from what I've seen and read on the subject, most of this is a moneymaking grift for the so called experts in sovereign citizenship and the experts don't truly believe in any of it, but it's certainly easy to relieve dumb people of their money only because they want to believe it to be true.
LOL, if Babbitt had smashed her way into your house with a mob you'd have shot her.
Not before she made him a sandwich though.
More likely he'd have pissed himself, but, I'm Iowa nice. I didn't want to say that.
You are really working hard in this one, I'll give you credit for that. At what point in this specific traffic stop do you think that the man would have complied? You keep mentioning de-escalation. How? Sounds like he didn't have a valid plate on the car, or a valid ID. Make him promise to come see them at the police station? Follow him home and ask his mom for his name? The longer that interaction went on, the more the officer had to feel unsafe. The windows are tinted. The guy refused to roll the rear windows down so the officer could feel safe.True or False: The United States leads the entire world in deaths caused by police during traffic stop per capita?
Why do so many police traffic stops turn deadly?
Since 2017, hundreds of people have been killed after being pulled over by police in the US.www.bbc.com
Since 2017, more than 800 people have been killed after being pulled over in the US, according to statistics from the Mapping Police Violence database.
Last year, traffic stops led to roughly 7% of all police killings nationwide.
I don't care if there are 30 million traffic stops --- 100-plus of them a year resulting in a shooting death is absurd. Full stop.
Look, I'm all about holding bad cops accountable, and righting a wrong when a good cop makes a tragic mistake, but this wasn't that.
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It's a change in policing tactics that I don't agree with.
I recall vividly an incident from about 10-15 years ago with a guy with a gun holed up in a house in Davenport. I had to cover the scene as I was the only reporter in the newsroom at the time and the regular police beat reporter was at lunch.
The cops set up a perimeter and set up communication with the guy and talked for HOURS. I mean, at least 5 to 6 hours. But eventually, they talked him into coming out peacefully. Had they chosen to, they could have had a sniper take him out (they had several on scene and the guy went in front of the window frequently.) They could also have stormed the house and taken him down at any time as well. But they instead waited him out, used negotiation, and ended the incident without any blood spilled. THAT is good police work.
In the case in the video above, other than being an obstinate prick, the suspect is literally threatening no one. He's sitting alone in a car in an empty parking lot. For what reason was it necessary to yank open the door and initiate a physical altercation? Again, the police INITIATED the physical/violent part of the conflict. I just don't understand why that is necessary.
Cops have a life and death decision to make in a split second. I don’t for the life of me know why idiots still think it is a good thing to not comply. I would ask you what your fix for this situation is but I have a feeling you are going to say better training for cops. You could have a PHD in copping and it still comes down to the split second decisions.True or False: The United States leads the entire world in deaths caused by police during traffic stop per capita?
Why do so many police traffic stops turn deadly?
Since 2017, hundreds of people have been killed after being pulled over by police in the US.
Since 2017, more than 800 people have been killed after being pulled over in the US, according to statistics from the Mapping Police Violence database.
Last year, traffic stops led to roughly 7% of all police killings nationwide.
I don't care if there are 30 million traffic stops --- 100-plus of them a year resulting in a shooting death is absurd. Full stop.
All true, no doubt but the “semi regular” statement in my opinion is a stretch. I guess it boils down to what your definition of semi regular is.
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But in this case, the only reason a "split decision" was necessary was because the cops forced the action.
The suspect was not doing anything aggressive or being a danger to the public when the officers decided to bodily remove him from a vehicle. Why was that necessary at the time?
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There's a balance. At some point you make a move or you're rendered impotent, and so is the police force. For example, this guy... do you wait around for hours? For minutes? For what amount of time? How many resources are being devoted to him? How does that impact other people who might need police?
One way to address this issue is to give the police lots more resources, but that's lots more $$$.
Almost any solution I see in improving policing = lots more $$$
What a stupid take. But bau for you
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Whatever amount of time you settle on is better than the, what, 2 minutes they gave this guy. Before KILLING him.
I can probably think of a dozen ways to de-escalate the situation before firing what sounded like a dozen shots.
He hadn't killed or assaulted anyone. He was being a smartass dick. No reason for shots fired.
Anyone that says stupid gets you shot for not complying are not that smart on this particular subject.
Guess what, I had law enforcement in my house all the time in the middle of the night to sign search warrants. I'm guessing most of them would agree with me.
He hadn't killed or assaulted anyone. He was being a smartass dick. No reason for shots fired.
Anyone that says stupid gets you shot for not complying are not that smart on this particular subject.
Guess what, I had law enforcement in my house all the time in the middle of the night to sign search warrants. I'm guessing most of them would agree with me.
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I'm not saying that they couldn't have done better than what they did. Just that when you talk about some of the actions taken that escalated the situation -- breaking the door down -- you do have a limited timeframe to work with. I'm all for trying to do better, but, it's also obvious that doing so is going to require a bunch of tough problems to solve, and you're likely enough looking at more $$$.
1. Keep dialogue going
2. Ask him if he has any friends, family, or lawyer he wants to call
3. Box his car in so he can't leave
4. Don't do anything and take down his plates and get an arrest warrant
5. Don't up the situation by saying you have a fake passport.
6. Don't threaten to break his window for what is likely a simple misdemeanor and only a court scheduled fine.
7. After scheduled court date that he doesn't show up to, a default judgment would be made for said crime.
8. Wait him out.
9. Explain his rights to him and that he'll have a right to a trial. Officer said he was detained. Guess what....at that point he doesn't have to say jack shit. But if Miranda is not explained, officer should be disciplined.
10. Buy the the guy some coffee and doughnuts and make it less adversarial.
11. Kill him with kindness, not bullets.
12. Ask him what his true concerns are.
2. Ask him if he has any friends, family, or lawyer he wants to call
3. Box his car in so he can't leave
4. Don't do anything and take down his plates and get an arrest warrant
5. Don't up the situation by saying you have a fake passport.
6. Don't threaten to break his window for what is likely a simple misdemeanor and only a court scheduled fine.
7. After scheduled court date that he doesn't show up to, a default judgment would be made for said crime.
8. Wait him out.
9. Explain his rights to him and that he'll have a right to a trial. Officer said he was detained. Guess what....at that point he doesn't have to say jack shit. But if Miranda is not explained, officer should be disciplined.
10. Buy the the guy some coffee and doughnuts and make it less adversarial.
11. Kill him with kindness, not bullets.
12. Ask him what his true concerns are.
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All rational, effective and smart de-escalation tactics for a non-violent encounter which this was.
None of which were followed by these over-eager cops.
A lot of that looks good in theory...
In practice...
How long does this take and how does this scale across many incidents?
How do you deal with criminals that understand these tactics by the police and use it against them?
@Hawkman98
The person in your example seemed willing to talk. The guy in the video is a sovereign citizen nut. You think that cop was talking him into disavowing his beliefs?
And, create another Bundy stand off? There is no way that nut ever accepts the authority of the state of Utah over him.
How much time is worth a human life?
Your height of ignorance. I know way more about law enforcement than you do. BUT, I give you kudos as I knew you would respond such a response.
A finite amount of time, or a finite amount of dollars. (as is indicated by how we govern our society) Impracticality forces our hand. Look at interstate travel.
