In the minds of a lot of righties "just comply" is only applicable when black & brown people are having interactions with the police.
Sovereign Citizen Catches the Dead
- Thread starter Hawki97
- Start date
In the minds of a lot of righties "just comply" is only applicable when black & brown people are having interactions with the police.
Saw an episode of true crime murder. Three 20ish women living in apartment in Bozeman. One comes home to find roommates shot- one still alive. It's daytime. Body cam shows two cops arrive, enter house and to hear victim upstairs crying for help. Cops ignore her for 3 minutes while they slowing and methodically "cleared" the house. They must have taken one minute alone looking in the garage. She is shot in the head and desperately need help. When the police do enter her room she begs them not to shoot her.
She was strictly a secondary concern to these police officers. I would have been ashamed of myself if I did this.
Rule number one when coming upon a scene where people are hurt, be it an industrial accident, car crash and I assume a crime scene, is make sure it is safe for yourself so you don’t become one of the injured/deceased…
A simple misdemeanor that had no jail consequences. Yep, shoot him up.
I don't disagree. But getting shot to death is not going to pay that ticket, and in fact will cost the government a whole hell more than the lost $228.00 in fines, fees, and court costs
These guys are tough to deal with. Just took training on how to deal with these people last week. When I train new officers we go through different situations they will deal with and this is one I always do.
From my experience you just have to be calm and treat them like a kid. You tell them what you have to do and that they can contest it at a later time. Usually if you treat them with "respect" they will eventually listen to you. Once they know if they don't comply that they will go to jail, they USUALLY will listen. The one good thing going for a Sheriff Office is, that is the one agency they somewhat will listen to because the Sheriff is the only agency elected by the people.
My department dealt with a situation similar to this one several years ago on Christmas. The officer's broke out the window and drug him out and arrested him. He sued everyone in both local and federal court. He was suing people that weren't even working at the time. He ended up losing and was convicted of all charges.
The good news is that during the 6 hours that we work through the sc situation other crimes are being ignored. The next step is the lawsuit over ‘while they spent 6 hours descalating the situation my home got robbed, why were you busy talking to that guy’
- Sep 13, 2002
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Yeah, cops should start shooting traffic violators more often to save time 🙄
I’m almost getting tired of making that boy look silly…but he’s so damn good at doing it himself.
I know it takes tons of training. But would you agree with me that if they just let him go and get an affidavit of crime and request for warrant it would have ended a hell of a lot better?
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Yeah cause if they weren't there they'd be standing around protecting your house.
What a dumb argument
No, you don't get to defy commands and get to go home. Plus that makes executing an arrest warrant much more difficult and dangerous when they know law enforcement is coming. Plus they usually don't use their actual name and their license plates were fraudulent, so it makes things much more difficult to actually track them down. Time was on the officer's side. They certainly probably wish they tried some additional tactics, so they didn't end up shooting him.
Okay, so under Iowa Code, when I was on active duty service, no Law Enforcement could impede my mission. So if they pulled me over in my HMVEE, I would have to take their commands. Commands are stupid. You of all people should know that. Way too many LEO without an education but yet love their right to shoot indiscriminately. If you can't handle the responsibility to serve and protect (not against minor fine cases), then you should not join the profession,
And you are completely wrong. They usually don't know warrant was issued. Catch him shopping some time. Not worth taking a life. Again, the kid was a dick. But it should have been de-escalated or handled at a different time. Stupidity on all fronts in this video
Ya I was never in the military so can't speak to that. All I'm saying is if no one had to listen to LE commands, things wouldn't work. You can disagree with laws and take me to court if you don't agree or upset that I told you to get out of your vehicle. You don't just get to drive off and deal with it some other day.
So you don't think they know there will be a warrant for their arrest if the disobey orders and drive off? Do you think they just think that was easy and there's not going to be any consequences? I agree it could have been handled differently, but the things you suggested aren't practicable. You think some other law enforcement agency in another state or jurisdiction is going to follow this guy around a grocery store for a warrant for interference with official acts or failure to identify? And do you really think once you make contact with them they are going to obey that time?
It's pretty simple on our end. We tell you to do something just do it and fight everything later. Complain against the cop or sue them, but you just don't get to say no thanks and do what you want. That's why they pay guys like you the big bucks. Remember, I don't agree with these cops did or that they shouldn't have tried more. I'm speaking in general terms.
Agree to disagree. Until LEO is a true profession with 4 year degrees, I don't think they should be able to command anyone. It is a power trip.
My suggestions have actually worked, so don't tell me that they are not practicable. Being in LEO is not an all powerful role. I had to explain this to County Attorney's office and LEO on multiple occasions.
Again, my rules of engagement were much stricter in Baghdad than what our LEO have on their own citizens.
I get that, but that's how it works. And with those commands, you better know what the hell the law says you can do. Because if you don't, be prepared to get your ass sued. There's no chance it's going to be a 4 year degree profession. Shit, you'd still have school bills to pay off when you go to retire. People don't go to 4 year schools to come out and make $20 an hour. That is why this profession is going downhill fast. We got some interesting people getting into this profession, so buckle up.
Some of your suggestions are common things we do in LE and others are a no go.
1. Keep dialogue going- Obviously we do this the entire time we try to reason with people
2. Ask him if he has any friends, family, or lawyer he wants to call- They have no right to do this, but I would allow it in this situation
3. Box his car in so he can't leave- Officer safety issue and doesn't work and can escalate the situation. Once he starts running into squads you get cops saying they thought their life was in danger and start shooting. I'd place stop sticks in front and rear of his vehicle
4. Don't do anything and take down his plates and get an arrest warrant- Fraudulent plates? Not how things work. Get the warrant and deal with the same thing another time?
5. Don't up the situation by saying you have a fake passport.- Don't tell him the truth?
6. Don't threaten to break his window for what is likely a simple misdemeanor and only a court scheduled fine.- It's not a threat. They are telling him what they are going to do if he doesn't comply. Law says if they don't identify or comply they will be arrested. In order to arrest someone that doesn't get out of the car you break the window.
7. After scheduled court date that he doesn't show up to, a default judgment would be made for said crime. And deal with this same type of incident at a later date?
8. Wait him out.- I would have definitely waited him out longer than these cops did
9. Explain his rights to him and that he'll have a right to a trial. Officer said he was detained. Guess what....at that point he doesn't have to say jack shit. But if Miranda is not explained, officer should be disciplined.- He was detained. Was not free to go. Disciplined for not explaining Miranda? If the cop screws up that is for the courts to decide.
10. Buy the the guy some coffee and doughnuts and make it less adversarial. Oh FFS
11. Kill him with kindness, not bullets. Maybe until a certain point, then we are honest about what will happen if they don't comply. We are trained to be very direct in these situations so there isn't misunderstandings.
12. Ask him what his true concerns are. Should have happened
If you want to take the power away from LE, then contact your state legislature. Until then, the law allows us to give commands and people must listen. I know that sounds like a power trip but it's not.
Some of your comments make you seem to come off as power hungry. You have your reasons and I can respect that. Obviously, you see things from your world and I see them from mine. Until you are in the officer's shoes, you just have no idea how these things work and how some people there is just no reasoning with. Every situation is different and you have to try your best to end the situation with no injuries or death. Mistakes will be made during these events and you have to be open minded enough to realize what you could do differnt next time.
I have thick skin so it's going to take more than giving your honest opinion to offend me. Come ride with me and I will put you through some high stress scenarios and see how you would react.
One of the best stories I have is as follows. I started a citizen's academy at my agency. We had someone apply that did not like LE and was open about it. One of the weeks is about active shooters. I explain what to do if you are in one and then train them as if they are in LE. I then take them to an old school and go through multiple scenarios where they have to decide when or if they should shoot. They go in teams of 4 and have to find the active shooter and deal with the situation. All of this is done with simulation guns that shoot like real guns. They shoot soft pellets that hurt and we have volunteers acting as injured subjects and yelling at them for help. It's as real as you can get and the citizens are panicked and very nervous. This guy who did not like LE shot a suspect that he shouldn't have and also shot several innocent victims. After each scenario we debrief. This guy says in front of everyone how wrong he was about LE and will never judge another one. He couldn't believe that he shot innocent people and would be sued and possibly charged criminally. I now talk to him on a regular basis and he is one of our biggest supporters. You can say you would do things differently, but until you are in the officer's shoes you have no idea how you would react.
Do you think his firearm was registered properly? Do you think he had a license to carry?
Prefer this outcome. Than this guy going into a place of business his angst has a connection with and shooting it up. We've seen this movie before. This guy and his behavior were coming to head at some point. Just glad he was the only one who got repercussions from it.
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No matter how many times I see the Ric Flair flop I still smile. It's all good. Northern does what he's good at
I agree with all of your comments, and was thinking the same things regarding the scenario. Especially regarding simply letting him go with a ticket (how do you issue when he has no plates, and says his passport is not him?) and court simply issuing an arrest warrant if he doesn’t show up to court. So now another officer gets to attempt to arrest him at his home. Far more dangerous/escalated in my opinion.
Good example where police do not have time to blink if someone fails to comply.
Exactly u let him go and his entitlement is reinforced in his mind.
The reason for the stop has nothing to do with what happens after. Unless you can show me proof that someone being stopped for a minor crime has never resulted in something worse happening.
Your thoughts on the reason for the stop indicate nothing about the interactions that follow. Sometimes people have bad intentions and the stop was the fuel they were looking for.
this is silly, childish, and dangerous. People like you are the reason that San Fransisco and portland have ended up the way they are. I'm glad you explained the law to the county attorney but it doesn't mean you know jack.
to our resident experts, this officer had ample time to think things out, they've been trained, should have let her go.
