Spencer
- Thread starter Grip220
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Why? There are generational talents at every sport at some point in time. They are not invincible, as no one is. In this day and age there is always someone on the verge of being better somewhere. That's what makes someone like Spencer as great as he is and fun to watch because the next young kid is coming.
But they almost get majored by a non-AA in their senior year?
This is how someone who doesn't understand the sport of wrestling would define a generational talent.
If you knew what you're watching, you'd realize how unbelievably rare a talent like a healthy Spencer Lee is.
I also still get a kick out of fans from other schools coming to an IOWA board to argue with us about how we feel about our guys as if they are going to change our opinions.
Just like the PSU fans on here, it's simply little dick syndrome. Behind all of the trolling, they know Yianni's talent isn't on the same level as Spencer Lee's, and Cornell as a program isn't even in the same stratosphere as Iowa's. If they didn't feel that way, they wouldn't be here looking for validation.
Since we have a Cornell fan here with us, I am wondering if he could share Yianni's total bonus point numbers from his four NCAA tournaments. There is a rumor going around that there are guys who racked up more on the backside this March than Yianni scored in four tournaments. Is this true?
Just like the PSU fans on here, it's simply little dick syndrome. Behind all of the trolling, they know Yianni's talent isn't on the same level as Spencer Lee's, and Cornell as a program isn't even in the same stratosphere as Iowa's. If they didn't feel that way, they wouldn't be here looking for validation.
Since we have a Cornell fan here with us, I am wondering if he could share Yianni's total bonus point numbers from his four NCAA tournaments. There is a rumor going around that there are guys who racked up more on the backside this March than Yianni scored in four tournaments. Is this true?
What was the stat, over a third of Spencer's career matches have ended in the first period? Absolutely insane, and I'd wager there's a very very short list of people who have matched or exceeded that stat.
He's absolutely generational, and what other fans call "Iowa bias" is actually just knowledgeable Iowa fans knowing the extent of what Spencer has gone through and been able to overcome during his time here.
He's absolutely generational, and what other fans call "Iowa bias" is actually just knowledgeable Iowa fans knowing the extent of what Spencer has gone through and been able to overcome during his time here.
You’re not alone, far from it. I don’t give a damn that he was pinned twice, I don’t give a damn that he has more losses than some, and I don’t give a damn that he only has 3 individual titles.
I’ve been a fan of this sport for 30 years, I participated in this sport for 17, imo he was the most exciting wrestler I’ve ever seen…bar none. And he did it while battling severe injuries.
Long story short, I really couldn’t care less what fans from other teams think. People love to mock greatness when it slips up or falls down. It shows their character.
What Spencer did while overcoming the injuries he had his entire career is "generational". His dominance, points scored, and bonus point wins was "generational". His win/loss record wasn't "generational". A healthy Spencer Lee was one of the top 3 if not the best in the last 30 years and no one is going to change my mind on that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Agree with me or don't agree. Either way my mind is made up.
After we discuss Yianni's NCAA bonus points, we can then discuss the higher quality of opponents Yianni faced in his *undefeated* NCAA career than Spencer Lee faced in his 1,1,1,6 career. I've done the math, and Yianni faced many more AAs than did Spencer (15 vs 11, and 33 (and counting!) total AAs vs 22 total AAs). Someone else did the math, and Yianni faced more AAs than *any* other 4x NCAA champion. Three NCAA tournaments Yianni faces *four* AAs, while Spencer never faced more than three. Heck, the only time Yianni faced only three AAs was his freshman year, and they were 2x NCAA champ Heil (bonused five times in his career), 4x AA Eierman (who was bonused three times in his career), and 3xAA Meredith (who was bonused four times in his career). I guess he was supposed to bonus them, right? But, hey, those are just numbers.
Then we can discuss total career losses (Spencer had as many or more losses in two different seasons than did Yianni *in his career*) and career winning percentages. After that, we can discuss the total number of times Yianni gave up back points (either twice or three times), versus the number of times Spencer gave up back points (three or for or more *this year alone* I believe).
"Little dick syndrome"? In ten years, Spencer Lee's legacy will live on only in Iowa history, while Yianni will be remembered among the very few 4x NCAA champions. We shall see if Spencer Lee ever makes a senior freestyle team, and then gets better than a silver medal at a World Championship.
cornell hasn't won a title since the boys in mount vernon did it.
Find one, should be easy to find because you know he’s no generational talent
Yianni is the new worst of the four timers. Got beat by a non AA this year. What a wrestler. You remember Pat Smith and Steiber because people talk about them all the time.
Maybe come back when run of the mill Yianni makes a world team. You might also ask him what his record is against Spencer.
????
Yianni is already a world silver medalist
Come back when Yianni wins a gold. Then he'll be comparable to Spencer who should have won three already except he was hurt. LOL.
You came back and completely proved my entire point. Great job lol.
What a stupid argument that is going on who is better between Yanni and Spencer. I loved watching both and IMO they are both great!
Both. It’s why universally every expert on the planet agrees we were robbed of what could have been when Bo Jackson got hurt. Was he not a generational talent based on what he’d already accomplished? Sure he came back for a second stint in baseball but was never the same. Doesn’t change things.
The big 3 lightweights of Spencer’s direct age group growing up till now were Daton Fix, Spencer and Suriano.
The next best comp of the era is Gable Steveson (who I would also argue is a generational talent. Wayne Gretzky played the same time as Patrick Roy. Lou Gehrig shared the field with babe Ruth. Messi and Ronaldo… I could go on).
I would argue that Suriano was one of the best technical wrestlers of his era. The kid gave up like 4 takedowns since middle school.
Spencer was a much better wrestler and that’s from a NJ-boy homer Rutgers fan. A guy who gave up less career take downs than Cael Sanderson is second best to Spencer Lee.
Sorry not sorry.
As for the Yianni Comp, I expected Yianni to win all his matches. That’s a huge achievement and standard.
I expected not to be able to divert attention from a Lee match for 45 seconds lest I want to miss most of the match.
Data can be used to skew anything. Especially in sports. The eyeball test doesn’t lie. If you could take any 125lber of the last 25 years for a “dream” lineup, you’re taking Spencer and it’s not even a second thought. Nico Megaludis? Gilman? Lizak?
The next best comp of the era is Gable Steveson (who I would also argue is a generational talent. Wayne Gretzky played the same time as Patrick Roy. Lou Gehrig shared the field with babe Ruth. Messi and Ronaldo… I could go on).
I would argue that Suriano was one of the best technical wrestlers of his era. The kid gave up like 4 takedowns since middle school.
Spencer was a much better wrestler and that’s from a NJ-boy homer Rutgers fan. A guy who gave up less career take downs than Cael Sanderson is second best to Spencer Lee.
Sorry not sorry.
As for the Yianni Comp, I expected Yianni to win all his matches. That’s a huge achievement and standard.
I expected not to be able to divert attention from a Lee match for 45 seconds lest I want to miss most of the match.
Data can be used to skew anything. Especially in sports. The eyeball test doesn’t lie. If you could take any 125lber of the last 25 years for a “dream” lineup, you’re taking Spencer and it’s not even a second thought. Nico Megaludis? Gilman? Lizak?
Spencer's achilles heel is his gas tank. While few wrestlers in college have been good enough to expose his gas tank, he has been vulnerable to lesser wrestlers who have been able to take him to the third period. He will have to improve his gas tank if he wants to win gold at the Senior level.
To me the argument would be whether you would take Spencer or Stephan Abas. Abas was a 3x ncaa champ with a 144-4 career record and has an olympic silver.
Definitely could be an issue at the US Open. Without knowing how much full training he was doing over his career, I wonder if he will have the same issues moving forward if he can train like he’d want. It’s also possible that he has/will and could still get to that wide eyed, drained look he would get later in matches.
For all you that don’t think he is generational and or best they ever seen because he lost a few times got caught and pinned because that’s the only way to beat him…. Let me ask you this is Tom Brady not the goat then because he lost a few Super Bowls?? Eventually Mahomes will probably pass him but for now Tom is the Goat.
He lost to Ramos because he was physically spent in the third period and got tossed to his back. He was going to lose even if he didn't get pinned. It was not a fluke. Spencer looked vulnerable in every match that I saw this year that went to the third period.
Guy who averaged <1 ACL for his college career couldn't work to improve his gas tank. What great knowledge Penn State fans bring to this board. If only genius Carl could have taught him gas tank!!
I’ll be honest. He slipped my mind. I didn’t see Abas wrestle, only read the accolades. Good call!
Spencer is wicked good, no doubt. Injuries cost him, without a doubt. I will opine, however, that ending most matches early with the same tilt hit repeatedly in an era of 4NF does not equate to “generational talent”.
I’d look at metrics other than the % matches ended early with a tilt. Plus, the losses and NF allowed are real.
I’d look at metrics other than the % matches ended early with a tilt. Plus, the losses and NF allowed are real.
You must have bad reading comprehension….I don’t think anyone cares what you opine. But way to move the goalpost saying that we should look at % of matches ended without a tilt.
And what about the 28 first period falls that weren't off a tilt?
What about that metric?
Come on, Slush. A month ago even you were saying he was one of the best to ever hit the mat. Taking a rough loss sucks, but understanding the circumstances surrounding his comeback shouldn't change your opinion.
Just because you're a PSU fan doesn't mean you have to buy into the other blow hards. You're better than that.
You’re right in that I felt he was one of the best ever. I still feel that way.
You may be remembering my past comments regarding where he would have stacked up among the all-timers if he had won 4. I had him 3rd behind Cael and Gable in that scenario. But then he didn’t win the 4th.
So now, as a 3x-er who gave up a couple falls and made “only” 3 finals, I have to compare him among really dominant guys with similar stats, and some of those guys are pretty darn recent. But they have more wins, more finals appearances, gave up fewer falls, had more dynamic offense . . .
Injuries, inability to train right, what have you . . . not getting the 4th was big in this discussion, IMO. Getting the 4th would have transcended the blemishes . . . heck, even if that loss to Ramos had been in the finals rather than the semis, he would have compared more favorably with the 4x finalist, 3x champs.
The MFF to 6th is just another variable that doesn’t compare favorably.
That’s just where I ended up when all was said and done.
They also haven’t been injured to the extent that he has. Get out of here clown.
It’s amazing people here get indignant if you say Spencer is “only” in the top 30 wrestlers ever. That’s still pretty F-ing good in my book.
In all honesty, the last time anyone saw a 100% heathy Spencer was most likely his junior year in highschool.
A 90% Spencer won his first two national championships.
This past year it's hard to assess exactly where he was, but despite all the techs and pins, I didn't see much more than an 80% version.
I think he should take another year off before jumping into Freestyle.
A 90% Spencer won his first two national championships.
This past year it's hard to assess exactly where he was, but despite all the techs and pins, I didn't see much more than an 80% version.
I think he should take another year off before jumping into Freestyle.
No. Everyone means generational talent. There’s a difference between generational results and generational talent. Spencer has quality enough results to be in the convo. Take a look at gable steveson. He’s without question a generational talent too and he “only” won 2 ships. So did dean heil…they’re not equal. A lot of people are coming to pile on and discredit Spencer’s talent because he lost going for his 4th but if you’ve watched him train/wrestle you know how special he is. Ask anybody at the OTC what kind of talent he has. Respected wrestlers with Olympic and world gold medals, not just Tom and terry brands. Go ask stritt what kind of talent he thinks Spencer Lee is. I assure you, their opinions about a wrestlers talent level far exceed yours (and mine).
After reading all the BS in this thread I now remember why exactly I made my opening statement. Anyone who can argue he is not a generational talent, clearly is just a troll or has not been paying attention!
Some guys get through their wrestling careers fairly injury free, and by that I mean no surgery. Some have many injuries and other troublesome circumstances. Its my belief( because I had fair share of sports related surgeries, shoulder and elbow) most D1 guys that may have endured what SL has would be lucky to amassed to a single year AA.
Some guys get through their wrestling careers fairly injury free, and by that I mean no surgery. Some have many injuries and other troublesome circumstances. Its my belief( because I had fair share of sports related surgeries, shoulder and elbow) most D1 guys that may have endured what SL has would be lucky to amassed to a single year AA.
I’m guessing he probably rushed back sooner than he should of simple as that….. my daughter was leading the state with .638 batting average in softball and UNI was starting to watch her….. blew her acl out in a collision on the bases…… she was also a state qualifier in the hurdles and couldn’t hurdle the following year….. played softball but wasn’t quite the same
Point is ACL injuries set you back a year if you’re a normal human….. double ACL surgery?? I just really hope he can continue to compete at the level he was capable of in the past….
He should probably shut it down other than rehab for good long while
My own personal opinion from the cheap seats, Spencer needs time to really lift and strengthen his legs, build that explosiveness back. I doubt he's had any real time to actually strengthen his legs between constant rehabbing/reinjury over the last 4 years. That freak lower body strength he had, that made it possible to compete with just a rehabbed ACL instead of surgically repaired ACLS, slowly started to diminish in the lower body over the years. He still has the wrestling skills, technique, mat IQ, and upper body power of the Spencer we're used to seeing. His ability to build an elite gas tank and lower body strength/explosiveness have been completely hindered by injuries.
If he's seriously considering wrestling at the US Open THIS year, then that is hopefully a good sign that he didn't re-tear either ACL. And as a huge Iowa and Spencer Lee fan, can't help but feel excited for any possibility of competing. Hoping the big leg sleeve he wore all year was the result of a tweak and not re-tear. The explosiveness and footspeed can come back, maybe not to 100% peak prior levels, but still a very high level. Just need an extended healthy period of training and strengthening.
I would still rather him wait for 2024, but he, his doctors, and coaches know his body better than I do. Plus there are serious advantages to wrestling and winning the world team spot that carry over into the Olympic trials next year - an automatic bye to the semi's. Spencer can end freestyle matches even faster than he can folkstyle (impressive for a guy who ended 1/3 of his matches in the 1st period). Now that he's fulltime freestyle, hopefully a lot less grind on the body. Compete a few times a year, 15-20 matches max, spaced out over a calendar year instead of condensed into a college season constantly making weight. Even less matches if you stake your claim on the spot, you could just wrestle final X, worlds, and a few tune up events with team USA.
If he's seriously considering wrestling at the US Open THIS year, then that is hopefully a good sign that he didn't re-tear either ACL. And as a huge Iowa and Spencer Lee fan, can't help but feel excited for any possibility of competing. Hoping the big leg sleeve he wore all year was the result of a tweak and not re-tear. The explosiveness and footspeed can come back, maybe not to 100% peak prior levels, but still a very high level. Just need an extended healthy period of training and strengthening.
I would still rather him wait for 2024, but he, his doctors, and coaches know his body better than I do. Plus there are serious advantages to wrestling and winning the world team spot that carry over into the Olympic trials next year - an automatic bye to the semi's. Spencer can end freestyle matches even faster than he can folkstyle (impressive for a guy who ended 1/3 of his matches in the 1st period). Now that he's fulltime freestyle, hopefully a lot less grind on the body. Compete a few times a year, 15-20 matches max, spaced out over a calendar year instead of condensed into a college season constantly making weight. Even less matches if you stake your claim on the spot, you could just wrestle final X, worlds, and a few tune up events with team USA.
